WoodenRegent

Hey everyone, first post here.

Just bought a 1991 Camaro RS, the Springs and shocks are worn. it bottoms out on almost every bump. I was wondering what spring and shock combination would be best for this car? I will be daily driving it. but I don't mind a slightly stiffer ride than stock. It will occasionaly (once or twice a year) be taken for autocross.

I was thinking KYB shocks, but I have no idea for springs.

My budget is pretty tight, but don't be afraid to tell me what I can't afford if it's worth it.

also, any recommendations for sway bars?

-Josh

midnightfirews6

iTrader: (1)

Koni Yellows/ Eibach pro kit if you want roughly the same stance it has now, maybe slightly lower. For factory 4x4 stance, MOOG 5662's and MOOG 5665's and Bilstein HD's or Koni Yellows. If you want 1.5" lower than stock or lower, Ground Control weight jacks (basically adjustable spring seats with short springs that allow you to fine tune the ride height and choose what spring stiffness you like) with stiff springs and Koni Yellows.

Koni Yellows are the best strut/shock for lowered cars and work great at stock height as well. Bilstein HD's are good with stock height but aren't valved aggressively enough for a lowered car. The above combinations should give a pretty good ride and great handling. Konis, Bilsteins and the Ground Control setup aren't cheap but you pretty much get what you pay for... I saved for 2.5 years for mine and I don't regret it one bit.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I went with Koni Yellow adjustables with Moog springs that I have been slowly cutting 1/3 of a coil at a time. There are so many different options giving varying weights from the factory with these, combined with people removing certain aparati or using lighter parts that it is almost impossible to say that X spring will make you 2" lower. Buying stock Moog springs and slowly removing 1/3 of a coil at a time has always worked the best for me. I'm not a fan of weight jacks, since you can't have two different sets of alignments that you can switch between.

rawley2

I am also looking for new springs and was looking at the weight jacks. I have to think they are to much for a street / autoX car.

About the only advantage I see with them is the ability to change spring rates by changing the springs fairly fast.

It's not like you can pull up to the track and drop your car and race then raise it back up for the ride home. There is a lot more to it than that.

I may be missing something.

midnightfirews6

iTrader: (1)

It all depends on the springs you run. 1000/250s slammed down are probably too stiff for a daily driver, and it's gonna ride like crap if the car hits the bump stops on hard impacts. 850/175's ride okay and if you go softer than that it would ride like factory but there wouldn't be much of a point unless you're using them to set corner weights because the car will handle like crap if you're using them to lower it much over an inch with anything that's not pretty stiff (This is why I'd recommend weight jacks over any off the shelf 2" drop spring... most don't have the rate to back up the drop to keep body roll down and keep the car off the bump stops).

True, they aren't like air bags... they are a little work to adjust and you have to get it aligned every time you make and adjustment and you want to make sure you adjust them equally and keep the car balanced... ideally you want to get the car scaled and corner weighted if you have access to scales or enough cash to pay a race shop to do it. If you have a lifetime alignment at a Firestone store they are sweet though since you can play with your ride height and keep getting it aligned for free

But yeah, if you want handling the MOOGs have good spring rates, the Pro kit has the best rates out of all the drop springs (IIRC), and all the 1+" off the shelf drop springs are too soft unless you use circle track springs, custom rate springs or weight jacks.

rawley2

midnightfirews6,

I have Koni yellows sitting here brand new, I was still deciding on springs and all the other parts.

I can see the advantage of getting the car scaled. That's a BIG advantage over MOOG springs.

I am wanting something I can drive on the street (not a daily driver but I will like to do a few road trips a year in it) and do excellent (well as good as I can drive) at autoX events and maybe a few road tracks.

I would like to get this right the first time or at least to a place that I can learn from with out having to rebuild the suspension again and again and again. I also don't mind paying for parts as long as I am getting the proper part for the job.

Not sure about the OP but I think you just talked me into weight jacks.

What rate springs would you recommend?

midnightfirews6

iTrader: (1)

Above 700 lb/in for sure, 950 lb/in or below on a street car. You want to go with about a 5:1 ratio front to rear (500/100, 1000/200, 750/150, etc) and the lower you plan on going with the car the stiffer the spring you should run to stay off the bump stops and prevent body roll as the roll center gets further from the center of gravity when you lower a mcpherson strut car. GC can probably do a better job recommending a front spring length than I could but I'd recommend 9" springs in the rear, 10" or above will sit really high.

I'm at a little below 26" fender height up front and about 27" in the back because I still need to trim the bump stops and go down to about 26.5" but the 850/175's work pretty good at this height. Touge raced my friend's 8th gen Civic Si the other night and it felt very responsive and balanced and he wasn't even close to keeping up.

plum92_camaro

I have a 92 RS that is driven regularly and autoX 4x per year. I am working on installing all my new performance suspension in place of the stock so i cant tell you how my set up handles yet. I bought koni yellows, and ground control weight jacks for springs and struts. The weight jacks are the way to go for autoX or road race. I've heard of the 5:1 spring ratio but ground control insisted on 850/250 cause of my stereo equipment.

A lot depends on if you want an autoX-able street car or a streetable autoX car. I'm going for the more serious streetable autoX car. If you are only looking for the autoX-able street car then eibach or moog springs with kyb or bilstiens should be fine. If your like me and want an streetable autoX car weight jacks and konis are about as good as you'll get.

Start with stock sway bars. If you need different ones go to a junkyard and get them. Our cars came with lots of different size sway bars. You and I aren't serious enough to need to save a few pounds on aftermarket bars.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

With weight jacks you can have it aligned at the "autoX" height and then when you drive around town at the "daily driver" height you will have unevenly worn tires. If you have it aligned at the "daily driver" height and then lower it to the autoX setting you have probably made a net performance gain of 0 since the two inch drop or so would give you an incorrect alignment.

All of the Moog spring rates are published and there are dozens of active members on here who have been using Moogs that can offer feedback in respect to handling, cutting coils, ride height etc. Some members are even knowledgeable enough to give you spring numbers from circle track catalogs.

plum92_camaro

Thats good point if you plan to adjust ride height constantly but just cause weight jacks are adjustable doesn't mean you have to adjust them constantly. I plan to set it and forget it. I was drawn to weight jacks by the facts that I can select my ride height, choose my spring rates, and all linear rates, not progressive. They just seem to have it all where all the other springs fell short. Most springs I looked at were wrong height, wrong rate, or progressive rate. I considered cutting moogs (its not a bad way to go) also eibach, cutting eibach pro kit, and sportline fronts with global west linear 190lb rear springs. Weight jacks seemed perfect for me. You may be happy with any one of the suggestions offered in this thread, this is my.

Weight jacks aren't cheap. I was on a budget when I started and now I've spent a grand on springs and front struts alone.

midnightfirews6

iTrader: (1)

I agree with all of this except that I'd recommend Konis on any car. Lifetime guarantee and they'll ride and last better than anything else... tires and shocks will give the best bang for the $$. Springs... as long as they're stiff enough to control body lean and suspension articulation and the right height to give your car the stance and geometry you're content with it doesn't matter what the name on the box is, or if the spring seat is adjustable or not unless you're getting the car corner balanced, which few probably would which is fine since it's probably overkill for the weekend warrior on a budget.

Also, there were hollow 34mm and 36mm factory front anti roll bars (identifiable by drain holes near the end link holes, you can measure diameter with a cheapy Harbor Freight caliper) which are significantly lighter than the 34mm and 32mm solids. Not sure how they compare with aftermarket bars but they are CHEEEP and they actually will save you enough weight to be worth seeking out. Strength has been discussed and debated in other threads. Either bar is fine as long as the rear bar is the right size to keep the car balanced.

True, you do need an alignment every time you adjust the fronts and you will need to adjust the panhard bar every time you adjust the rears, and you must do them both evenly. The idea behind the weight jacks is to install the springs, get the height right, get an alignment, and leave it alone without the trouble of cutting springs... and the added benefit is that you can adjust later on if you don't like the height for free in a matter of minutes and the only expense will be another alignment unless you can do them yourself or have a lifetime alignment service somewhere (I know Firestone and Expert Tire do them, others might).

Cutting Moogs is another fine option for lowering I forgot to mention, nothing wrong with it and it's definitely the cheapest route to fine tune the stance and maintain good spring rates, you just have to make sure you cut them both perfectly even and don't get the springs hot when cutting. The drawback to weight jacks is cost (before STG jumps in here and jumps down my throat, unsprung weight from the adjusters and coil frequency with short springs are issues too with the GCWJ setup and will harm ride quality a bit but that's getting pretty deep into the technical side of it and probably isn't enough of an issue to be a deterrent) , OTOTH the drawback to cut Moogs is that if you ever want to change the ride height again is that you have to take it all back apart and cut more to go lower or order another set of springs and cut less (if at all) to make it sit higher, which is kind of a pain in the *** but if you're happy with it the first time then you save $200 and no one will ever know or care that you don't have some shiny powdercoated adjusters hiding in between your springs and the mounts.

rawley2

Seems to me if you want to do this ONE TIME weight jacks are the way to go. You may want to change the spring rate later but that would be easier with them and more options from what I can tell.

Unless someone knows what circle track springs fit but then your still faced with buying many different springs to get it right maybe. Plus changing them each time.

After a lot of reading about scaling the car to balance it. Seems weight jacks makes that a simple job. I think it may be over kill for a rookie like me to mess with this but a year or 2 down the road when I'm ready to mess with this it would be nice to have a suspension ready for this instead of doing it over. I think doing it over is wasting money if you can do it right the first time.

So it seems like the money you save buying a pro kit or Moog springs may come back and bite you later when your spending it again.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I will agree, If you want the easiest and fastest route for setting ride height and you will not constantly raise or lower the height the weight jacks will work fine. Removing and reinstalling moogs to cut them can be tiresome but once you have done it and all your parts are new or in good shape you can do it relatively quickly thereafter.

plum92_camaro

Another plus to weight jacks is if you subtract weight (aluminum engine, aluminum heads, tubular k-member and a arms, fiberglass hood, relocate battery to rear, remove a/c) you can return the car the your desired ride height with a simple adjustment and maybe a re-alignment and maintain your chosen spring rate. If you buy moog, eibach or any other brand you will have to cut them (possibly for the umpteenth time and your spring rate will increase each time and you may end up with a ride you don't like. Or the opposite scenario, you add weight (supercharger, turbos, cast iron big block) the car may be lower and you can't add coils so you will have to buy new springs to raise it back up and maybe have to cut the new spring umpteen times to get it right. If you add enough weight to need a higher spring rate with weight jacks it should be as easy as ordering them, install, adjust to height and kick your old springs back out and get some of your money back.

Again I say, weight jacks aren't cheap but I truly believe they have what all other springs fall short. Moog and eibach are very high quality springs that many people use and are happy with in their build, and so are many other brands. My weight jacks were $499.?? shipped. How many moogs can you buy and cut to height for that price if your on a budget? The thing i've learned about a budget is it usually includes more work and you sometimes end up saying "i wish i would have just spent the money to get that instead".

There are 3 ways to do any project. Good, fast, and cheap. You can only choose two.
If it's done good and fast it isn't going to be cheap.
If it's done good and cheap it isn't going to be fast.
If it's done cheap and fast it isn't going to be good.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

They're adjustable and tuneable. Dont look at them like air bags where you just set the height to what you want that day and go.. Look at them as a 1 size fits all spring setup. You can run it low for a while, and if you change your mind you can raise it back up... or go the other way, dependign on your needs. But it's not going to be something you do before each commute.

I want them so I can corner weight the car and set the ride height to what I want it. Instead of hoping that off the shelf springs lower my car to the specific ride height that I want.

rawley2

Ditto all that plus easy to change if the car weight changes

That's why I picked them.

ghost91

Would anyone say that Moog springs would make the car sit higher than before they were put on? Since stock springs have been on for so long, theyve obviously compressed a little. And since Moog's would be brand new, would they make the car sit higher for a while? Just trying to figure out what I'm gonna buy as well. I'm afraid the Pro Kit will be too low for me, since my towns roads suck, but I'd really like to get them. I'm also trying to avoid buying Moog's to just have to start cutting them anyway. Thanks

plum92_camaro

IMHO get the pro kit. Moogs will return your car to stock height. The pro kit may put you at the height your old sagging springs are now. Pro kits are usually perfect for those looking to improve their stance but not significantly lower their street car. Check out the pics in the "lowered 3rdgens" thread. Match that pro kit with some koni yellows and you'll have a really enjoyable ride.

ghost91

Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for the advice. Gonna look into everything and see what I come up with

plum92_camaro

Yes, read read read! I spent a couple months reading this board to help me piece together my set up. It takes a while to sort out all the different opinions and how each person uses their car (dedicated street, dedicated race, or both) and what worked well for who in those situations. This thread was very useful to me in seeing what different springs look like and has quite a few opinions in it too. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...d-3rd-gen.html

ghost91

O believe me..I've made my eyes hurt reading so much. The car is my daily and just don't want to be too low and that's where I found some conflict and not knowing what to do. That's why I commented on this post since it was recent and has the same questions. Thanks for the help tho.

Ron U.S.M.C.

If you like the car the way it sets now than don't change the springs. Its the struts and shocks that control bounce. Just replace the shocks and struts first and see what that gets you.If your really serious about this track use than get the Koni Yellow adjustable. If your going to mainly just drive it on the street I don't see any reason you cant run KYB . They are the best chose for decently priced street units. Id call them a mid grade shock/strut

= struts = http://www.kyb.com/products/shocks/gr2.php

= shocks = http://www.kyb.com/products/shocks/gasajust.php

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

My car sits pretty low with new moogs in the front and only 1/2 coil cut off.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

But what part number did you go with and what do you have to add/subtract weight such as Tranny/emissions/sound system/aluminum heads/fiberglass hood, etc.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

5662s
1/2 coil cut off

car was complete stock, ac, iron heads, th700r4,
fiberglass jongbloed hood.
Was running 225/45/17 front, 26x11.5/17 et street rear.

Of course car is apart now, will be lighter, with bigger tires.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Cut Moog = Pro Kit height

My car with Moog 5662/5665 (uncut) is the following height.

LF 27.3 RF 27.5
LR 28.75 RR 29 (Michelin tires)
or
LR 28.5 RR 28.5 (Goodyear tires)

So basically about an inch and a half higher on the rear than on the front. I like it. Most people here would say it's too tall. How much did the Moog 5662 change the front heights from my original stock springs?

LF +0.5" RF -0.25".........Seems odd. But the front left and right are now within 0.2" of each other. In other words, level.

I agree. The overwhelming majority of performance, ride quality, bounciness is all controlled by struts and shocks. The springs effect the performance a lot less than we think. That's why I always recommend saving the $200 that the Pro Kit costs and put that money into better struts/shocks instead. Just stick with your original springs or replace with Moog if you want less sag.

The Ground Control Weight Jacks to me are for people who want their car designed out of the box. By that, I mean people who specifically want 800/175 or 1000/200 springs rates. Same with people who want their cars "precisely" at this height.

I'm not that kind of person. I went with the Moog 5662/5665 because
a) They're a moderate boost to performance over stock springs.
b) They ride better than lowering springs due to their taller height.
c) Less hassle with scraping the air dam as well as running over anything on the street.
d) Linear on front and rear.
e) Dirt cheap.

ghost91

Thanks a lot. That helped a lot. Definitely gonna do shocks and struts first and see where I go from there. I'll probably just leave my stock springs for now. Thanks for the help man!

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

I would second the konis


The spring choice for ease I would say pro kit.

I plan on weight jacks but they cost more. Who says you can't make different alignment settings. Mostare made at strut top. Mark one for lowered and one for street.

ghost91

Just at curiosity, does anyone have the stock spring heights? Ground to fender preferably.