The car is an '88 Formula, 305, WS6.
I've installed UMI a-arms, strut mounts, and Koni shocks and the best camber I can get on the driver side is +.3. Anything more will require that the brake master cylinder be relocated and you won't get a whole lot more than that. UMI say it should be able to get 3 to 4 degrees of negative camber.
It may not matter, but all of the steering linkage, sway bar bushings, and end links are new as well.
Are there measurements the average joe can take in his home garage to check for a tweaked front end? What are they?
It's all just bolt in components, pretty easy to install, and pretty hard to mess up. So something is either wrong with my car or the parts. That being said, could I have done something wrong while installing the parts?

Driver side at +.3



and for reference, passenger side at -.3

 

What is your fenderlip height off the ground?

 

My car is in the driveway which is on an incline. I know that will have some affect on the measurement. If it might be significant, I'll measure again on Thursday when I can get it into the garage.

Front DS 27 3/4" PS 28"
Rear DS 27 5/8" PS 28 3/8"

 

Thats a pretty tall car/ stock height range.

Note for reference and understanding: If you simply left your strut mounts in that same postion, yet you put lowered springs in the car and lowered it 2", your camber reading would go from about +0.3 to about -1.0 or more nor problem because of the shorter length between the top strut mount and the ball joint.

Now also lets consider another Note: that the A-arm angle is going outward from the kmember in a downward angle right now. As the car lowers that angle gets more parallel with the ground- thus it lengthens the geometry- thus it gains even more angle to the sturt which in turn gian more negative camber

with your settings right now, the car will probably suat the outside wheel about 2" in mid corner set and the cmaber will go from +0.3 on that side to about -3.0 on that side in dynamic motion. Albeit thought the car will also roll about 3* in the process, but you need to understand that the suspension has what is cars a camber curve, and at that height you have pretty massive camber gain towrds negative specs.

 

On a side note, I'm kindof disappointed to see there has been 115 views on here and no one else has come in to help. I though more people here have learned stuff over the years and would be able to answer questions like this. tells me alot of people still do not understand suspension geometry even though they may speak like they do. I have been gone for a few days, so it just surprises me I am the only one helping you.

 

The springs are the stock WS6 springs, to the best of my knowledge. I don't want it any lower.

The stock spec in my Helm manual is 0 +/- .5, so I would expect to be able to get it into negative territory with the aftermarket strut mounts even at the stock ride height. As it is, I'm toward the outside of that limit at best. Together with the fact that UMI say it should be able to achieve 3 to 4 degrees negative, something just isn't adding up.

Another thing I had difficulty with after installing the a arms is the sway bar. It was a PITA to install on the aftermarket a-arms. It was very simple with the stockers. Further, I had to use the shortest end links available, 1". The instructions indicate that it should be parallel, which it is, but if I lowered it, it would be inclined. This, too makes me wonder if it is the parts or my car.

Is there anything I can do to check my car and get an idea if there is something wrong?

I should also add that before replacing my struts, they were able to get it to -.5 and that was the most that could be achieved at that time. I put about 60,000 miles on the struts I replaced and I have no idea if they had been replaced before that, 156,000 on the car. The tech at the alignment shop suggested that the old struts could have been bowed due to wear which was allowing for the negative camber and that seems plausible. Could I have done something wrong with the strut replacement?

Thanks for your help. And for what it's worth, there does seem to be a significant improvement in the handling of the car, and I did not think the worn out stock stuff was terrible.

 

Best way to find out is to check your SAI readings not only left to right, but also compare them to your old alignment sheet specs with the -.5 reading.

An increase in SAI will decrease max negative camber range.

 

It may become apparent when I'm looking at the sheet, but what is SAI?

 

SAI= Steering Axis Inclination

When you bolt the strut to the spindle, there is a little bit of fudge room in angle between these just from very sight slop in the to massive bolts that fasten them together. The more you pull the top of the strut towards the wheel when you torque them, the less the SAI will be.

Two notes I want to make:
1) it is very important to keep the SAI consistant on both sides of the car can and generally will pull to lesser side under braking. The less of SAI angle the more the" imarginary line" from the sturt mount bolt down trough the ball joint hits the ground inside (more towards the center of the car) of the tire contact patch centerline. This produces positive scrub radius. It makes the steering easier to turn the wheel standing still in a parkinglot-BUT- it will make the wheels more fight eachother upon road forces when in motion at speed.

2) When I put mine together, I did the opposite and pushed my strut towards the center of the car when bolting them together (I did this with both strut and the spindle out of the car- yet I am saying pushed towards the center of the car with the top of the strut so you have a visual reference. I measured the angles and made a jig that would make both identical- I then slightly elongated my bolt holes and increased my SAI slightly to reduce my scrub radius- this decreases the max range of negative Camber. On my car that was NOT an issue because I was so low I had very good angle to still get -1.5 static neg camber if desired. I ran -0.8 on my car on the street/track and my fender heights were 24 3/4" on both fronts.

One thing I never recorded (and I have recorded ALOT on TGO in the way of measurements and references) is I never recorded my SAI angles. I never had it professionally done becasue I did my own alignments. I had a great friend that owned Accurate Alignment in Orange that would let me use his equipment (his old school mechanical stuff) so I never had printouts of official SAI readings. I did the stering angle work on my garage floor and never took pictures or references to record and remember the angles but I think I recall them being in the 17* range where factory is more like 13-14*. What I did was bolted the spindle onto two joined 2x4's with a larger hole drilled so I could insert the spingle through them and attach the spindle flat with the castle nut and a large washer, I then tape measured about 2.5 feet upward (up- as in mounted position on the car- mine was laying flat on the ground though) and then taingled measurement across to the top of the strut shaft and just equalled this distance when I bolted them together on each side. I kept elongating the bolt holes ont he spindle a little bit at a time until I got where it appeared the imaginary line would intersect the ground just a tad bit inside my tire centerline. (also note that I ran -0.8" camber so when I had my wheel pointed straight under braking, my tire contact patch centerline is slightline INWARD of my actually tire centerline. This kept the car from wandering under extremely hard braking zone when I am setting up for the next corner) I do know it was more than anyone could get with factory specs because I had to alter my spindles in order to make the change. There is no factory adjustment other than bolt hole slop that can fudge just a little difference from side to side even with OEM specs.

The last things I will add is a benefit by increasing SAI, not decreasing like I am describing would help you get static neg camber, is the increase in SAI has the same effect as increasing Caster. The greater steering angle will lift the car when the steering is turned off center. This lifting effect is the same as what caster does.

I am not trying to confuse you, sorry for that, I just post all info so anyone reading this understand when you change a part for one reason, you are changing other things also. You will need more caster if you reduce the SAI- but your change will probably be minimum you will really never feel it. you are only looking to even out the sides equally.

 

If you still have the stock a-arms measure the length compared to the UMI pieces. If the UMI ones are 1/4" or more shorter than stock that would explain what you're seeing.

 

I really doubt that would be the case. The reason why I feel that way is 1) they built stuff like this in jigs and mass produce it- hard to make one that much shorter by accident because it would not fit into the jig, and 2) the stock A-arm bushing had to have typical wear they OEM typically see throught he last 2 decades and thus have the rear bushings completely colapsed while the fronts are not much better. Putting int he new aftermarket arms with poly busings will alone make for about an 1/8" improvement over the worn OEM units in length when you factor in worn rubber OEM bushings.

Its either one of 3 things
1) SAI is fudge as I decribed above
2) chassis is bent from and accident
3) you have a bent spindle from hitting a curb or such


easiest way to rule out #1 and #3 is to simply look at the alignment sheet specs and list the SAI readings

 

The manual for my car says +0.3 camber is stock +/- something like a half degree. In other words, it's vague. Having said that, I would think that a stock height car with stock mounts should be able to get at least 0 camber and better yet about -0.3 on both sides. To get beyond -0.3 camber (to me) would suggest either a lowered car or aftermarket strut mounts (which the OP has)......Thus I was as surprised and confused as anybody as to why the car seems maxed out at +0.3 camber.

 

The parts he is replacing the OEM ones with have no better perfomance value than stock ones. In fact, the taller Umi sturt mounts on the stock height car is actually making for a lesser range of perfomance camber. He would be able to get into negative on the +0.3 side if he simply put the OEM shorter strut mount back in on the stock heoght car. He has extended the strut length over OEM specs and has reduced the angle from the balljoint to the strut shaft nut to more vertical than OEM.

...that's why my first question to him is what was your front "fenderlip height"

...however, since I did not get to this yet (nor was I yet because I was waiting onhim to post SAI readings off his alignment sheet) I was trying to see if I could help him get what he has to currently work before I broke this news that he has a bad marraige of parts at that height. We still do not know that yet and its possible he can get his SAI corrected so it will work a little better if one side is not equal to the other. If they are, then my next suggestions is for him to lower the car an 1" or get rid of the taller strut mounts.

Back when Hunter Motorsports first R&D's the first prototype aftermarker strutmounts, they offered them in 3 heights- stock, medium, and tall. I opted for the medium units becasue I measured my shock travel and knew I was not hitting with the stock mounts but was close. When I went to the extended balljoints I then breached the inside of the billet mount whereas if I had the OEM one I would hit.- moral of the story, I bought the mount extended, but as short of an extention possible to suit my needs so I could retain favorable performance ranges of adjustments. The old saying= Bigger is not always better. These parts are intended with a lowered performance stance in mind. Most people that buy them have done so, but the problem arises when the rare person that wants of put racing perfomance type parts on a stock height car and does not realize how most perfromace parts are engineered with the unsaid "lowered stance" expectation that is assumed when the manufacturer offers them to a client. This is why manufacturers will offer tech lines, you can call and ask questions about parts you do not know or understand. Can that part yeild -3.0* on a car? Yes- but if the installer understands and knows how to use it in a setup and geometry to do so. Happens all the time, that's is seriously why most amatuer built cars with performance parts added to them actually ride and handle worse than if the person left it OEM.

 

How is the measurement being taken?

 

If you are asking about SAI measurements, its done with a level and an angle finder, or its done automatically on expensive high end digital alignment machines when it collects data through steering rotations.

To do it manually, it is best to set the the wheel at vertical 0* and then put an magnetic degree gauge onto the strut shaft and record the highest setting as it rotates about the shaft radius. It is the most accurate way to do in manually without disassembling the car. If you want to be very accurate in these settings by manul measurements? then you really need to disasemble the strut and spindle front he car and jig it level in a vice or such in x & z axis', and then record y axis on its angle. If you canpt really get a visdual of what I am refering to then you probably should not try it at home. Most computer alignment printouts should show SAI readings, if not then find a better shop that does. I am glad I do my own alingments becasue the crap I see now with these new machines is rediculous with the "green" areas the computer tells the customer is within range tolerances. I sent a car of mine back to an autorepair shop 3 times telling them to fix it and that I did not give a rats **** that the machine says its fine, I took the service manager for a ride and scared the living crap out of him as I let the car drift towards oncoming traffic over the line- I drove him back and fine a better shop and fix it or I will have AAA dispute your payment- I then dropped my NASCAR license on the table and explained to him that I could do it, but I am not about to get my hands dirty on a car that he was paid to fix after a fender bender (not my fault- I was standing still in a gas station when a 4x4 decided to used my RF fender as an onramp)- why I say this story? because I feel for everyone that need to take their cars places. Im a guy that knows my poop and I still run into issues dealing with so called professional shops that try use technology to dupe customers into 'allowable" alignemtns because the machine says so.

 

On mine I found there to be about a half a degree or so slop in the strut to spindle bolt holes. If you loosen those bolts up and pull up the spindle while you tighten them you should gain some negative camber.

EDIT, just saw that's what you were talking about Dean.

 

Yes. But I wish the OP would post the SAI readings on his printout. I hate when someone needs help but then doesn't follow through when you try and help.

However, I can pretty much guarantee its a combination of both the "fudge" in bolt slop AND the extra overall strut height due to the new mounts. We will just have to assume for future reference tha tthe strutmounts will yeild into Neg range if the slop is torqued to lesser SAI between the strut and the spindle.

 

I've just been busy with other stuff.

The SAI on the alignment with the old struts was 14.3 on the driver's side and 14.2 on the passenger side.
With the Koni's, 20.7 on the driver's side, and 14.2 on the passenger side.
So, the SAI did change a good bit on the driver's side.

So, what I think I'll do is loosen the lower bolts and lift up on the brake rotor to tilt the spindle up as much as possible, tighten the bolts, and see what happens. Does that sound like a good plan?

I did research this before buying the parts and found nothing indicating that the car needs to be lowered to get the maximum benefit. Had I known that, I would not have wasted money on it. I've already tried UMI for help about this and they aren't impressing me. They sure said nothing about needing to lower it and know I am running the stock springs. I did hold the stock mounts next to the UMI mounts to compare, and while the UMI mounts are taller, it's not what I'd call a huge difference, but maybe it is enough. You've been more helpful than them and seem more knowledgeable. It's upsetting that they really can't seem to help with their own product.

I knew the a arms probably wouldn't be better than stock for my use, but they were ready to bolt on, or so I thought. The plan was to make a weekend job, hopefully just one day of the weekend, out of them but that didn't work out, either.

 

Give me a few minutes and I will try and draw a sketch on what you need to do.

 

Now this is going to be a little confusing so bare with me.

What you are going to need to do is have the car realigned AFTER you make this change - Sorry to have to tell you this, but you need to correct SAI then start all over with the alignment. THe shop will not do this so you will need to do this step yourself.

If you look at the diagram, I show alot of colored lines. THe main ones we need to focus on is the purple lines and the two purple dots.

The red part is a magnetic angle finder. The kind used to check pinion angles. Its a common type of gauge. Maybe Harbor Frieght? will have one cheap? I'd be a good place to check if you do not have access to one.

Step 1) You will FIRST need to jack up the 14.2 side of the car (which I think you said is your passenger side. Pull the wheel, then with the steering wheel straight you will place the magnetic gauge on the rotor face and adjust the car height until that face is true vertical 0* with the angle finder. ROtoate the rotor just a little to make sure the gauge does not change angle and the wheel is staight enough for true verical- you might have to play with the steering a little to make sure you have a true reading. jack the car higher or lower to get the face level (just don't get under the car because obviously you can't us a jackstand since you need to play with the car height to get the rotor face vertical.

2)Now take the angle finder and place it on the strut body coming off as close to 90* of the car as possible (meaning have it point straight out sideways when you take the reading towards the exact direction the spindle is pointing. You will have to be as close to exact as possible freehanding both sides of the car.(you do the other side in a few steps)

3) once you record this reading (note that true SAI angle is fron the top of the strut through the center of the balljoint. Your reading will be close but probably a bit higher since you have the caster angle a included. This is not an exact science, but it will be your closest way to manually set them closer for better tolerances. You will probably never get them exact 9unless you absolutely get lucky) so they probably will still be 0-1.0* off side to side. Right now you are more like 6* off with the drivers side @ 20*.

4) Put the wheel back on and repeat step 1 on the other side to level that rotor face to vertical. Now gauge that side and see how much different your reading is from the first side. See if it is about 6* difference like the alignment reading shows. If you are getting a reading close to 6* difference, THEN YOU ARE GAUGING THINGS WELL ENOUGH by freehanding the guage 90* from direction of travel and should continue.

5) Now loosen the two massive bolts that hold the spindle to the strut. Again note the purple lines on the left show a kink of the two joined in high SAI angle, and the right diagram shows them kinked towards lower SAI readings. Loosen the bolts and kink the strut towards the lower direction (right example and snug the bolkts enough to gauge a reading- jsut enough tightening so they do not move on their own, yet you can still force them to move a little with the gauge attached magnetically. Try and match this side to the other side reading you earlier took.

6) torque them back down, put the wheel back on, and take it to the alignment shop.

That will definately give you better negative camber ability on the drivers side. 6.5* difference is huge for SAI. That alone will make your car pull to the left under hard braking.

Dean

If you need more help then PM me and Ill give you my ph number.

 

Awesome. I understand what you are explaining and I already own an angle finder. I'll report back once I get it done. I need to finish a project with the truck so I can get it out of the garage.

 

Good deal, Check your private messsages and call me real quick if you can.

 

For everyone else reading this. I want to talk to Charlie so I could make sure we were on the same page and made sure he understood how it is an innocent mistake that alot of people do when bolting these together. It is not something that is commonly known and what happens is the laft side is torqued downward- whereas the two nuts on the right side of the car are torqued upward thus creating the difference in how the strut seats to the spindle it care is not considered in the tightening sequence.

 

I had time to do this. I had great difficulty getting repeatable measurements of the angles. I wanted to double check, just to make sure I had it right. Every time I checked, it would be different from the last. So my measurements won't mean much.
I did use jack stands and found that I had no problem achieving the 0* vertical on the rotor. I couldn't really see the angle finder without getting under. Hopefully that didn't cause any issues with my measurements.
I didn't get anywhere near 6* difference with any of them.
The closest I got before changing anything was 18 degrees on the passenger side, and 19 degrees on the driver side.
I loosened the bolts and used a jack with a block of wood under the rotor to hold it in place so it wouldn't move, got the bolts tightened by hand. When I checked again, I got about 17* on the passenger side and 16* on the driver side.
I torqued it and actually managed to get the same measurements this time, 17* and 16*. Maybe I was finally getting the hang of it??

I also measured the angle of the rotor with the suspension fully drooped, 1.5* on the passenger side and 3.5* on the driver side before. 1.5* on the passenger side and 2* on the driver side, after.

It looks like it might be in the negative now. Hopefully it is not wishful perception. I'll try to schedule an appointment for Thursday.

Here are some pics.



As far as the alignment goes you said earlier that the camber will move into the negative because I am at stock ride height, and that makes sense. With that in mind, should I go for a different static setting, like 0 or should I still have a little negative?

 

I was able to get the adjustment after making that change. The SAI came out real weird, though, even on the passenger side, which I did not touch so I don't know what to take from that.
The SAI came to 21.5 on the driver's side and 30.5 on the passenger side. The tech said he's seen that type of thing with even new cars. Maybe it is the machine and not the car??