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What do you guys think? Anyone had any experience?
I don't know what diameter my stock ones have but will this aftermarket from spohn fit my camaro?
Anything else I need to think of getting besides this sway bar kit if i choose to?
What do you guys think? Anyone had any experience?
I don't know what diameter my stock ones have but will this aftermarket from spohn fit my camaro?
Anything else I need to think of getting besides this sway bar kit if i choose to?
Spohn makes top quality products. I've got a V6 and can tell you that larger front and rear sway bars make a big difference in handling. I put a 36mm on the front and 23mm on the rear. Many say a 24mm rear bar works best with a 36mm front. But, the 23mm was on sale & I doubt 1 mm makes any significant difference on a daily driver.
Unless you are trying to save on weight, there are cheaper ways to go. Getting sway bars from a junk yard off a Trans Am or Camaro Z28 or similar will work. Just take a micrometer with you to get the right mm bars. But, solid steel sway bars are heavy. As The Project suggested, searching Ebay is also a cheaper alternative. I didn't worry about brand name. I searched the web and just bought what was on sale.
Also, you should get a wonder bar (steering brace) which attaches to the chassis first at the front sway bar bracket holes before the sway bar is attached. The sway bar brackets bolt both the wonder bar and sway bar to the chassis. Wonder bars are cheap. If you go to the bone yard, many later V8 Third Gens have a wonder bar along with the sway bars.
A wonder bar corrects a GM engineering error and prevents the steering box from tearing off the frame. Why GM put them on some models & not others is a mystery that maybe added a $1.50 to the cost of the vehicle.
Since installing the wonder bar and bigger sway bars, I've installed new springs (Moog original replacements, not lowering), and Tokico Blue struts/shocks. I can tell you that the sway bars made the biggest improvement in handling compared to the other suspension upgrades. My old time mechanic friend who has owned a couple of Camaros drove my Firebird after all the suspension improvements and said it was the best handling Third Gen he has ever driven. He loves driving it.
Save your money for something you can't get a junkyard....like SFCs. Otherwise find a nice set of swaybars and install a wonderbar and panhard bar. Swapped out my stock 30mm/18mm sway bars with WS6 36mm/24mm. Installed a Spohn adjustable wonderbar and Founders Performance panhard bar and replaced my stock steel driveshaft with an LS1 aluminum one. My '91 Firebird feels more stable, doesn't squat during takeoff, and seems to attain cruising speed much quicker than before.
The problem is that I live in Sweden and the closest junkyard is around 380miles and the used parts are costly here so many times its better to pay a little extra to buy brand new parts rather than used ones and for used parts I want to see it before I buy it.
I was thinking to buy these ones on your recommendations:
The problem is that I live in Sweden and the closest junkyard is around 380miles and the used parts are costly here so many times its better to pay a little extra to buy brand new parts rather than used ones and for used parts I want to see it before I buy it.
I was thinking to buy these ones on your recommendations:
Should I go with the wonder and panhard bar first ?
Thinking of replacing the sway bars next year.
I would do the panhard bar last. I'd do the sway bars first. You can always buy one sway bar and save up for the other. I put the front 36 mm on and drove the car a few weeks before getting the rear bar. However, the front of the car stuck to the road going around a corner, but the rear end was loose and kept trying to pass the front end.
Since shipping costs are a factor, I'd look for hollow sway bars.
If your funds are very limited, the wonder bar is a good starting point. If you also decide to get a panhard bar, search this site for info on how to change the bar and bushings. It can really be a pain.
Good luck. Please keep us informed of your progress. Also, I'd love to see a pic of your car.
Save your money for something you can't get a junkyard....like SFCs. Otherwise find a nice set of swaybars and install a wonderbar and panhard bar. Swapped out my stock 30mm/18mm sway bars with WS6 36mm/24mm. Installed a Spohn adjustable wonderbar and Founders Performance panhard bar and replaced my stock steel driveshaft with an LS1 aluminum one. My '91 Firebird feels more stable, doesn't squat during takeoff, and seems to attain cruising speed much quicker than before.
Exactly what I was going to say.
The great thing is that many different sway bars came on the 3rd gens from GM and the fact that they don't wear out. A little scraping, paint, and new bushings/endlinks and you have a whole new handling capability.
Not to say that Spohn's stuff isn't quality or fairly priced, just that the sway bars don't need to be aftermarket.
i run ther hotchkis 36 mm hollow bar up front and i still have the stock bar out back, ill switch out to there 1 inch hollow rear bar at some point, but it also has the hotchkis springs with 2 coils cut in the rear and half of a coil in the front to bring the body down, at the moment i had kyb gr-2 shocks but that will soon change. and i have tweaked a thing or two here and there, and its a v6 car..... with 220 dread wear rating 275 35 18 tires.. it sticks like glue... in a hard corner at around 60 mph the back end wants to start leaning... so ill go a bigger bar and 295 30 18 in back...remember the v6 car handles better then the v8 car if done correctly... it has better weight bias...
i run ther hotchkis 36 mm hollow bar up front and i still have the stock bar out back, ill switch out to there 1 inch hollow rear bar at some point, but it also has the hotchkis springs with 2 coils cut in the rear and half of a coil in the front to bring the body down, at the moment i had kyb gr-2 shocks but that will soon change. and i have tweaked a thing or two here and there, and its a v6 car..... with 220 dread wear rating 275 35 18 tires.. it sticks like glue... in a hard corner at around 60 mph the back end wants to start leaning... so ill go a bigger bar and 295 30 18 in back...remember the v6 car handles better then the v8 car if done correctly... it has better weight bias...
When pushed really hard, these cars tend to like softer rear bars and in general and stiffer front. That assumes all things are equal. When you start staggering wheel/tires, add weight to parts (heavier brakes and axles...) then you typically need to compensate for the bigger/heavier parts with stiffer suspension there (at least the relative axle to axle balance), so with my 265/40-17 fronts and 305/30-18 rears and 9" axle my car seems to want a stiffer than normal rear bar.
That said, I'm currently fairly happy with a 36mm hollow in the front and a 19mm solid in the rear, but I want to get a 34mm hollow to try on the front.
Hey cross fire. I'm currently running 295 30 18 r888 with the hotchkis bar up from and a Iroc bar in the rear. My front end is super glued to the ground.. the rear end can step out on me if pushed hard enough. I'm thinking I need more shock dampening.. but not positive
Morrow,
I wouldn't call KYB a performance shock, and you have 20 mm difference in stagger (not terrible, but some).
What spring rate in back?
Have you modified the RC's?
Like Mark said, are cars generally like a softer rear bar. Which means the rear spring rate should be increased in conjunction with a reduction in bar. Another reason to increase rear spring rate is if you have lowered the rear RC.
Since you've customized so much, it's hard to give advice not knowing what's been done. You might get a lot of info from some software. You take your measurements and plug them in. Get the plus version, you can trick the system for a torque arm car. http://performancetrends.com/rc.htm
Ive told you Nick, Get the rear RC down, the front up with extended ball joints. I ran a 34mm font bar and a 25 (yes no typo- 25mm) rear bar with progressive rate rear springs. Ran the Konis on 2 (of 0,1,2,3 settings) rebound. You do not need more rear shock, you are also listening to advice from V8 cars which I told you do not do.
No offense everyone but I do not think there really is any of you experienced with a V6 car and it's balance. A V6 can run a much larger rear swaybar because of three main reasons. 1) The have less engine weight to dive the outside front and thus lift the inside rear going into a corner, 2) the car has a better weight bias overall and runs different spring rates then a V8 car, and 3) the car has less power then most V8's coming off the corner so throttle induced oversteer is not an issue.
Last edited by SlickTrackGod; 04-10-2017 at 11:12 AM.
A V6 can run a much larger rear swaybar because of three main reasons. 1) The have less engine weight to dive the outside front and thus lift the inside rear going into a corner, 2) the car has a better weight bias overall and runs different spring rates then a V8 car, and 3) the car has less power then most V8's coming off the corner so throttle induced oversteer is not an issue.
Good valid points, Dean.
Though I would qualify the last one with "less of an issue," or "not much of an issue."
The 295's he has; they are causing rear grip to overpower front grip, as he has indicated.
Generally, more rear spring rate will help. I understand the theory of your progressive springs (increase initial weight xfer, then increase).
Morrow (Nick) has made a lot of geometry changes. Were the LCA attachment points altered? $129 for software can be a good deal; or, he could just listen to you.
Good valid points, Dean.
Though I would qualify the last one with "less of an issue," or "not much of an issue."
The 295's he has; they are causing rear grip to overpower front grip, as he has indicated.
Generally, more rear spring rate will help. I understand the theory of your progressive springs (increase initial weight xfer, then increase).
Morrow (Nick) has made a lot of geometry changes. Were the LCA attachment points altered? $129 for software can be a good deal; or, he could just listen to you.
Nick and I have talked on the phone several times, I've met him only once in person and took a quick looksee at his car in a parkinglot. Mainly was impressed with his fender flares so I do not recall what geometry alteration provisions he has adopted to it yet. Was kind of surprised to see him asking questions on here. He offered to me recently that we need to get together and I need to drive it to see what it's like.
Morrow,
I wouldn't call KYB a performance shock, and you have 20 mm difference in stagger (not terrible, but some).
What spring rate in back?
Have you modified the RC's?
Like Mark said, are cars generally like a softer rear bar. Which means the rear spring rate should be increased in conjunction with a reduction in bar. Another reason to increase rear spring rate is if you have lowered the rear RC.
Since you've customized so much, it's hard to give advice not knowing what's been done. You might get a lot of info from some software. You take your measurements and plug them in. Get the plus version, you can trick the system for a torque arm car. http://performancetrends.com/rc.htm
Good valid points, Dean.
Though I would qualify the last one with "less of an issue," or "not much of an issue."
The 295's he has; they are causing rear grip to overpower front grip, as he has indicated.
Generally, more rear spring rate will help. I understand the theory of your progressive springs (increase initial weight xfer, then increase).
Morrow (Nick) has made a lot of geometry changes. Were the LCA attachment points altered? $129 for software can be a good deal; or, he could just listen to you.
I think I need to clear a few things up on here... most of my posts are old and have nothing to do with my current set up lol. Dean you know more than you let on... you helped me design some of it
So when this thread was started it was 2013 ish? My car then, vs my car now have nothing in common. There is not one thing that hasn't been changed, altered or modified... dean has helped a lot over the years... every part of the front suspension has been built from scratch... nothing baught pre made... as for the rear .. shocks are custom made but and I do have control arm drop brackets... everything has been modified and changed in the rear too... the front suspension is 6 inches wider than stock.. the rear is 4 inches wider than stock making it square... I'm running r888 and the only time I have ever had any tire break loose is when I came into a negative g hair pin at about 60 mph and slowing down rapidly and nailed the throttle exiting the corner.. the rear ended slid a few inches... the car is designed for high speed cornering.. its low, wide and sticky.... dean you really should drive it... it too feels like a jet fighter... only with wide sticky tires... you can look up on equilibrium camaro on here and see the build
Nick, I appreciate the props, but you did most of that yourself. Maybe you learned from postings i've done on here in general to everyone over the years. I know we've had a few technical phone conversations, but you seem to know your stuff pretty well so far.
You need to remember that I help many many people with their cars and phone conversations so I do not always remember who has what exactly- heck- I barely remember my own cars because of all I have (5 cars) as well as the race cars I wrench on.
Even when someone has provisions like you say you have LCA relocation brackets, I do not know where you have them set at static and dynamic. Ill say again what I am most impressed with is your fender work. That wide body is so bad *** like a real vintage IMSA car. Well get together one day soon.
Impressive work you've done. Sorry about the KYB. When I read it up above, I didn't look at the time stamp.
No worries lol I was like uhhhh.. hahaha thanks though. It's a slot car. I think I need a larger 25mm bar and go from there... I also need to get better wheels. Tires are too wide for the wheels...
I'm running r888 and the only time I have ever had any tire break loose is when I came into a negative g hair pin at about 60 mph and slowing down rapidly and nailed the throttle exiting the corner.. the rear ended slid a few inches... the car is designed for high speed cornering..
Were you unwinding the steering wheel at this point?
Sorry for all the questions, just interested.
Speaking of IMSA, I saw the LB G.P. race this saturday with most of the LMP1's that race LeMan. What was great from me was seeing a Vintage CanAm seires race with vintage cars ranging from 1964-1973. God did that bring back memories of me on my minibike at 4-7 years old on the hills of Riverside Raceway watching Mark Donohue , McLaren's,and the UOP Shadows. The two Shadows were here and were so much friggin quicker going down that main straight then the LMP1's and the Factory C7R vettes its ridiculous. I miss those days of racing. Here's a few shots.
I told Valentin later that he needs to look in his mirrors more often for smart asses.
Mark Donohues veiw from the cockpit of his 1967 McLaren M6A Can Am Chanpionship car.
Cool pics, Dean. Got my heart racing.
We still have CanAm Thunder days up here, and I do mean thunder. You'd be surprised what's hiding in barns around Road America.
Morrow,
Have you changed the RC's? Have you calculated them since all the changes you made?
Cool pics, Dean. Got my heart racing.
We still have CanAm Thunder days up here, and I do mean thunder. You'd be surprised what's hiding in barns around Road America.
Morrow,
Have you changed the RC's? Have you calculated them since all the changes you made?
Yes they have definitely been changed.. but I have not yet calculated them .. I need to... I use to work on a few cars of the era.. a Lola and a mclaren..
Well, you did lower the rear RC, then.
Again, impressive work! The software isn't too expensive and one can learn alot from proposing changes to see what effect they could have. Taking all the measurements is time consuming but free. I still believe it's worth it, especially for someone like you with lots of custom work.
I wish those hood louvers would look good on the power bulge. All I can do is take the plate out of the end of the bulge and the cowl seal. But one never knows/prepares for when you want to enjoy speed (alone and rural, of course).
08-03-2013, 06:32 PM
