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I was thinking about making a spindle that extends the track out 2" to avoid using spacers to run 4th gen width wheels.
I like this Idea because it would move the brakes out further and they'd be more visible and breathe better being closer to the wheels (Maybe). but moreso you'd be able to run 4th gen rims without spacers, which as you know can be weaker than running rims that bolt directly to your hubs.
What do you all think? Has this been done (I searched, didn't find much, maybe my keywords weren't' good, all I found was drop spindles) what are some of the things to consider? retaining stock geometry? Lets talk about it.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Interesting idea - has been discussed somewhat before.
But there are direct fit wheels to fit the 3rd gens from CTW Motorsports (17" x 9.5"), Ronal (17" x 9.5") and Hawks (17" x 9") - so why literally reinvent the wheel to mount wheels that don't even fit?
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I am aware of these direct fit solutions, however, I'm not really interested in them, I would like a more complete solution allowing me to use any 4th gen wheels I want, at their original backspacing while using a 4th gen rear.
It can't really be that hard, there are some logistics to consider obviously. I would love to have a constructive conversation here to see what things need to be considered, and I'll pursue a fabrication shop that might be able to do them.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I was brainstorming on this last night, as I see it there are 3 basic methods of making this happen.
1. Move the mounting points inward 2", which would push the spindle out 2"
2. Push the Spindle face and brake mounting points out 2" and leave the spindle mounting points in stock location
3. Some combination of the two, AKA move the spindle mounting points out 1" and the brake/spindle face out 1".
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
You know, I thought of another method that might be easier, the bracket that mounts the brakes could be made thicker, and the wheel hub face could be moved out 2"is that feasible?
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
So...
You're dead set on a wide rear.
I'll put it in terms most can understand:
You want a wide rear, and you need a wide front (implants) to keep proportionality. Padding the bra is a bad idea (spacers). The cost of implants are going to exceed anything you are attempting to save by letting your rear get wider. Just buy a 4th Gen - the chassis is built that way (robust, bulging).
I prefer a slim rear (3rd Gen); butt, to each his own.
I will be amused by the pics of your implants, though.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I already have a wide rear (4th Gen) I want a wide front to match it, so I can run matching rims without spacers. If I wanted a 4th gen, I'd buy one.
I think you are completely missing the point of what I am doing. I'm not looking to make the wheels stick out past where they are, I'm looking to run 4th gen style wheels, which have a different backspacing to third gen, so ultimately the look will be the same, the only difference is, the wheels I tend to like are 4th gen backspacing, and they're widely available.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I'm sure all these awesome rides are TGO members, but yea, they're all 4th gen rims with spacers, what I'm saying is to be able to run them WITHOUT spacers if you already have a 4th gen width rear.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I didn't miss the point.
You won't give up the wide rear, and you want the 4th Gen wheels w/their backspacing. That's why you want to push out the hubs (implants, hubbah hubbah).
You want; therefore, ...
But you won't give up your wants; therefore, ...
The 3rd Gen and 4th Gen front suspensions are different and allow the different fitments/backspacing. I do understand.
Pushing the hubs out (implants) are going to cost you big time, and will be a one-off. IF we had SLA spindles, you might have a chance to customize. Better to live with a slim rear, but you don't want. Your want is going to cost you big time! You don't want to hear that.
It's always hard to give up your wants - I get that.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
You're creating more problems than you are solving.
On another note, fabricators are builders and engineers are designers. Personally, I wouldn't let a fabricator touch my spindle without the design already confirmed to not be a failure.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I swear you are speaking another language TEDSgrad, Its not about giving anything up, I don't know where you go that. Yes I would like to run 4th gen wheels, it would be nice to do it without spacers.
I've owned 3 4th gens, so I am well aware of the differences in the suspensions. I am not looking to put 4th gen suspension on a third gen, I'm only looking to modify ours as little as possible to make it be able to mount 4th gen wheels without spacers.
I REALIZE its expensive. I was considering working with a couple engineers that I know to design them, but wanted feedback from our community. I would then pay the price to develop them, test them and eventually make them available to all of you.
Seriously Ted, you keep mentioning Slim rears. you realize this is 100% about the front, I've already got a 4th gen rear, and ultimately if this project doesn't go my way I'll decide on a possibly different width rear, but I'd really like to investigate this, its been done on many other cars with great success so why not ours?
QwkTrip - Thanks for your input, thats entirely possible, and I'm not going to butcher my own spindles, I'm not going to just jump into this without study, analysis, research and testing... I'm an analyst as a profession so its kinda what I do. Right now I'm just trying to get some feedback on what people think if this kind of product was available. Assume that they have been tested and do not compromise suspension geometry, or strength, and are configured to run brakes just like a modified spindle you'd use for brakes from bigbrakeupgrade.com, what would you think then?
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by Falconiroc
I REALIZE its expensive.
I don't think you realize how expensive. I lead a team of engineers for a living and I don't think you have enough money in your 401K to pay for this to be done to the level of validation and quality that a reputable company would do. (And no insult intended, but you don't have the knowledge either.) This is why small companies tend to skip the validation and go straight from paper to production. That might be fine for a panhard rod but a spindle has a lot more risk, both technical and legal.
It is my opinion that you would lose less money buying a $5K set of custom Fikse wheels than the approach you are thinking about.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Now here is an idea.... I have seen some people on this board increase track width with different a-arms. Not sure what all that involves and how they maintain decent geometry, but you could do a search on that.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Yes, Because all the aftermarket parts available for these cars are Fully Certified by a Team of NASA Engineers. From K members, To A-arms, to brake kits , Wheel hubs, Panhard rods.....etc
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
Now here is an idea.... I have seen some people on this board increase track width with different a-arms. Not sure what all that involves and how they maintain decent geometry, but you could do a search on that.
I thought about this, and you might have to make a bracket to change the angle of the strut to maintain a vertical wheel orientation, but I wasn't sure how a steeper strut angle would affect performance, it may be a positive change though.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by 88Greg
Yes, Because all the aftermarket parts available for these cars are Fully Certified by a Team of NASA Engineers. From K members, To A-arms, to brake kits , Wheel hubs, Panhard rods.....etc
A lot of that is low tech stuff that is hard to get wrong.
Your example of brakes is a good one though. That kind of product is much more difficult and I guarantee Wilwood puts serious effort into designing, validating, and manufacturing their brakes to a high standard. Making great brakes is not easy and there is a ton of intellectual property that makes them who they are. There are a very limited number of people in the world with enough knowledge to start up a business and do what they do.
Places like bigbrakeupgrade are not designing brakes, they are putting together kits that leverage OEM products. The things they manufacture in house are just the low tech stuff that is hard to get wrong.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I'm not sure why this wasn't tossed out there before, but I can assume you that contacting a company like kore3 and having them build you a set of 2" thicker hubs would be a much better option, not to mention cheaper and less of a headache.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I would think the A arm may be the easiest way to move it out but then you still have the strut body to deal with if you want wider wheels.
The upper strut mount may be as simple as moving the body mounting 2" farther out towards the fender with a cut and weld procedure.
Then comes the tierods, maybe just make a longer set of sleeves.
There are a lot of headaches in trying to change up a spindle, all those angles..
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
Your example of brakes is a good one though. That kind of product is much more difficult and I guarantee Wilwood puts serious effort into designing, validating, and manufacturing their brakes to a high standard. Making great brakes is not easy and there is a ton of intellectual property that makes them who they are. There are a very limited number of people in the world with enough knowledge to start up a business and do what they do.
Places like bigbrakeupgrade are not designing brakes, they are putting together kits that leverage OEM products. The things they manufacture in house are just the low tech stuff that is hard to get wrong.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
A lot of that is low tech stuff that is hard to get wrong.
Your example of brakes is a good one though. That kind of product is much more difficult and I guarantee Wilwood puts serious effort into designing, validating, and manufacturing their brakes to a high standard. Making great brakes is not easy and there is a ton of intellectual property that makes them who they are. There are a very limited number of people in the world with enough knowledge to start up a business and do what they do.
Places like bigbrakeupgrade are not designing brakes, they are putting together kits that leverage OEM products. The things they manufacture in house are just the low tech stuff that is hard to get wrong.
No offense, But I dont know any engineers who would make blanket statements like that without calculating the forces involved etc.
In this case, with a custom spindle, There should be no reason to be any more suspicious of it than a tubular a-arm or coil over conversion. Especially if its suitably overbuilt out of quality materials.
Heck, I saw a thread where guys are cutting and welding astro van steering shafts to fit thirdgens. Thats a no-no in many jursdictions, No welding allowed on steering components. No one calls those out.
OP, I think if you were to design something using a bolt-on hub bearing assy (eg corvette style) it would be much easier. You could make it out of plate steel, And be much stronger than the OEM cast iron unit.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by //<86TA>\\
I'm not sure why this wasn't tossed out there before, but I can assume you that contacting a company like kore3 and having them build you a set of 2" thicker hubs would be a much better option, not to mention cheaper and less of a headache.
That would give a huge distance between WMS (wheel mounting surface) and KPI line. If you measure from the face of the hub to the center of the ball joint, you would have large scrub radius. Not to mention heat build-up in the bearings! You might be able to get better bearings with the hubs, though.
A tight spindle/hub assembly is desirable, then you could use longer a-arms; but, with this backspacing, the BJ's might interfere with the wheel barrel.
The OP wants (4th Gen wheels and rear). My advice is to give up those wants, but he doesn't want to hear that. That's his right.
If the OP truly has a big budget, he would not have purchased a used rear and used wheels from a different platform! So any theoretical discussion about re-designing the front suspension is just that.
So, use the spacers, stay under the speed limit, struggle in the parking lot, and check bearings often. It under-performs, but he keeps the look he wants.
Knowledgeable potential future buyers will walk away.
I'm not against you, Falcon. I just don't agree with your choice/wants as it relates to 3rd Gens and performance. It's only my opinion and people can disagree.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I think the relationship with wheel centerline and SAI would remain the same ? thus no change in scrub ?
This brings up a question. Whats the real issue, from an engineering standpoint, with well designed and made wheel adapters ? I have read people saying they should not be used on higher perf apps, But what the actual reasoning ? I am talking about the type that is hub centric and has its own studs.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Now we're having a great discussion and some good points are being made. I'm thinking that an extended A arm, steering sleeve, and adjusted angle on the strut would probably be the most practical route. I am gathering all the information I can, and from some of what I have read, doing this may actually have handling benefits in cornering, and possibly a slight detriment to ride quality, but that was unclear. if you push the bottom of the strut out slightly you actually improve the angle of the strut for cornering. I have some people to talk to about it. I am related to some very well known race suspension manufacturers on the east coast, and I've been meaning to break the ice with them, maybe this is my excuse =).
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
TED, I'm not going to give up on something just because its hard. That's not how advancements are made. I'm not afraid to try new things, and if I fail, I'll learn something along the way, and sometimes the lessons learned are more valuable than the goal you were trying to achieve.
If you think I'm going to do something like this and then just go out and thrash on it without testing, and analyzing my results you are a fool.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Falcon,
First, you need to control yourself; then, you have a shot at controlling a car.
Originally Posted by Falconiroc
you are a fool.
This says more about your lack of control, than it does about me.
I have not attacked you personally. You can keep your 4th Gen rear and wheels, but you will not get performance with them. You are putting your wants before performance. Is this evident in the way you drive?/ live your life?
It's been three days, some keystrokes, and some lack of emotional control on your part. Nothing to commend you on.
Spend the time and money - prove it with pics and performance data. Once you spend all that treasure, I'll be amused.
I'll stop posting in this thread, now.
Good Luck, Falcon. I wish you well, with your car and in life.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
wow, way to take my comment out of context. Believe what you want dude. Wow you jump to some real conclusions there. As usual your logic doesn't make sense, but ok. Have a nice day.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by 88Greg
Can you elaborate why ?
I was going to let everyone hash things out a bit more before I came in to clarify things- I've been watching this post seeing where the topic goes without my input, but since I opened my mouth ill answer you.
SAI acts the same as caster. The angle of the spimdle face allows the car to be run without as much static camber and this helps straight line braking. The combination of SAI and caster working together help a rapid increase of camber tot he front tires when steering inputs are put in. The sai angle also helps with relation to the A-arm angle and length when pertaining to the camber curve especially when the car is lowered.
Scrub radius is not a problem with extended spindles as long as the tire footprint stay centered on scrub- would be the same as wheels spacers/adapters. The point someone made above (I think it was Brian- Teds) about wheel bearing issues is a concern. The load moves outward and makes the inner and outer bearing loads different putting more applied pressure on the inner bearings and potential to burn them up. Wheel spacers do not do this even though the footprint is the same/ the wheel bearing load is not.
The major concern is leverage on that spindle shaft. That would scare the living crap out of me.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Thanks for Posting SlickTrackGod, your post was very informative, so what do you think about extending the A Arm, steering sleeve, and then using a bracket to just slightly change the angle of the strut so that it could keep the extended spindle vertical?
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by Falconiroc
Thanks for Posting SlickTrackGod, your post was very informative, so what do you think about extending the A Arm, steering sleeve, and then using a bracket to just slightly change the angle of the strut so that it could keep the extended spindle vertical?
I stated above I do not like the idea of an extended spindle. Check out what Morrow (Nick) did building extended a-arms. I have not got data from Nick about how his ackerman and consequently his tire wear is holding up. I figure with the wider track the ackerman is the only downfall as for more rapid tire wear. The car's are notorious for "climbing" the nose of the car while at full lock in a parking lot. This climbing affect is caused by a loss of ackerman and the iside wheel not building angle- as a result the car will toe-in more with greater steering angle. A wider track width will only make this worse.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
i like the idea of grafting on a corvette front suspension. maybe c-4 and get rid of the struts? a cheap donor vehicle would be nice. probably end up with much better brakes?
just a thought, (which usually isn't very good, lol).
i'm curious to see what you end up doing. best of luck on your project.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I'm not actually suggesting increasing the overall track width of the car, I want the wheels to be more or less exactly in the same position as they are now, and the same as if you were running 4th gen wheels with appropriate spacers, I'm just looking to extend out the suspension to properly reach the 4th gen wheel backspacing without spacers. For those of us who have 4th gen rears already it would open up a large number of wheel options since 4th gen backspacing is extremely common, far more than third gen backspacing. (for the record, I did not install the 4th gen rear in this car, it was the previous owner)
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
i understand your not trying to change the overall track width. And guys are forced to run wheel spacers when using 4th gen or vette backspacing type wheels. would be neat if you came up with a trick spindle to solve the issue. i'm sure they would sell if proven to work fine.
i was suggesting the vette suspension as its aluminum, and better brakes. might be the same track width? i can measure anything if you want. my son left his here.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by redneckjoe
i understand your not trying to change the overall track width. And guys are forced to run wheel spacers when using 4th gen or vette backspacing type wheels. would be neat if you came up with a trick spindle to solve the issue. i'm sure they would sell if proven to work fine.
i was suggesting the vette suspension as its aluminum, and better brakes. might be the same track width? i can measure anything if you want. my son left his here.
I totally understand what you were suggesting, I was actully responding to someone else.
Going with a Vette suspension would be great, but since vettes use an LSA suspension, it requires additional mounting points which would have to be completely fabricated. I was looking for a more bolt-in solution.
I am planning on toying with the idea of a 5th gen camaro rear in the future but thats a story for another time =)
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by Falconiroc
I'm not actually suggesting increasing the overall track width of the car, I want the wheels to be more or less exactly in the same position as they are now, and the same as if you were running 4th gen wheels with appropriate spacers, I'm just looking to extend out the suspension to properly reach the 4th gen wheel backspacing without spacers. For those of us who have 4th gen rears already it would open up a large number of wheel options since 4th gen backspacing is extremely common, far more than third gen backspacing. (for the record, I did not install the 4th gen rear in this car, it was the previous owner)
Then all you are doing by moving suspension parts (Ie-brakes) further from the fulcrum and increasing polar weight movement which is pretty much the same as increasing unsprung weight. A loosing situation. Far better to just use aluminum adapters.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I'll be going with some good hub centric spacers in the near future, but I'll continue researching and talking to some of the engineers that I'm familiar with. I don't doubt your knowledge here, as you sound more educated on the subject than I, but I am going to do some unique things with this car either way, because I enjoy it.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by Falconiroc
I'll be going with some good hub centric spacers in the near future, but I'll continue researching and talking to some of the engineers that I'm familiar with. I don't doubt your knowledge here, as you sound more educated on the subject than I, but I am going to do some unique things with this car either way, because I enjoy it.
I have a machinist friend who is currently tinkering with a 4th gen hub onto a 3rd gen strut setup.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
I am using fourth gen off set with 2 inch spacers plus custom width control arms. You can't in any way shape or form use the strut style that the third gen has and make a 56 offset wheel fit without a spacer of some sort. The wheel will run into the strut. The only way to do that is get rid of the strut and go double wishbone. Due to clearance issues.. I redesigned my entire front ended but wanted to keep the strut design for simplicity. It's the strut the makes it so you can't achieve this..
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Originally Posted by morrow
I am using fourth gen off set with 2 inch spacers plus custom width control arms. You can't in any way shape or form use the strut style that the third gen has and make a 56 offset wheel fit without a spacer of some sort. The wheel will run into the strut. The only way to do that is get rid of the strut and go double wishbone. Due to clearance issues.. I redesigned my entire front ended but wanted to keep the strut design for simplicity. It's the strut the makes it so you can't achieve this..
You are forgetting about my strut/spindle spacer block idea Keeping the strut where it is using the factory geometry of the strut motion ratio- with increased leverage so higher spring rate- but using your extended a-arms with the factory spindle spaced out up under there. The SAI would change a few degrees more as the ball joint to strut mount line bends around the wheel/tire a lot like newer cars do (Look at a typical late model conventional upper control arm). Could not go as wide as yours though (+3") because the SAI would be at a ridiculous angle.
Last edited by SlickTrackGod; 03-31-2017 at 09:06 PM.
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
Very true dean . I'm not sure we can make a spacer for the strut tonspondle mount large enough to clear a 56 offset wheel though.. at least not with coilover due to leaverage against the spindle from the weight of the car?? The Ackerman seams to be good now since I adjusted the heims of the control arms a bit
Re: Making a spindle that extends the track out 2"
So instead of a spacer for the strut, could you mount the strut to the a-arm in its current position, move the spindle out two inches. Then link the spindle back to the strut mount?
Well, that won't work because then you can't turn it......
Perhaps making a inverted mount that triangulates the spindle to the a-arm, allowing it to turn? Probably create too much stress on the end of the a-arm though.....
neat idea, just not sure how feasible it is from a safety and engineering stand point.
03-27-2017, 09:08 PM
