I have a 1989 Camaro rs with the 305 TBI and TH700R4. I bought it a month and a half ago. It has 140,000 miles on it and everything is still intact (emissions, etc.) It was a one owner car and it was well taken care of--he only put AC delco parts on it, used to wax it on his lunch break, kept the window sticker, factory exhaust with cat, etc.

Problem is, when the car is warm it surges badly at idle, especially if you've been romping on it. It tries to leap forward and is really annoying. It also pings with every upshift--even if you're not pushing it too hard. It seems to get more sluggish as it warms up too. If you leave it in park and increase the rpms, everything inside the car rattles as well--and I replaced the motor mounts (not tranny mount though) One of the techs at the dealership I work at said this was a faulty EGR valve, and I got a trouble code (32) as well for the EGR. Thing is, the previous owner replaced the valve only a year ago. I took the valve off to see if things were clogged and nothing was.

Also, when you start it up in the morning it smokes a little--bluish/gray. It doen't smell like burning oil, though--just rich exhaust, and if you take it easy/don't romp on it at night, it won't smoke in the morning. Could this be related?

Since I work at the dealership where I bought the car (he traded it in on a 2005 Mustang V6--that was low), the car only cost $1,000. I guess I'm being ****, but it's a beautiful car and I want it to run like new too. Any advice is much appreciated.

Also, (just this one last thing and then I'll leave you alone) would it be wise to just remove the entire EGR system? Someone did that to my 1980 z28, and that car runs excellent, and there are no inspections where I live.

thanks for taking the time to read all this,
white80zred89rs

Most likely this is something that the TBI guys could better answer.

It sounds like the previous owner took really good car of it. But, do you know how long it's been since the car has had a full tune up (spark plugs, spark plug wires, cap, rotor, O2 sensor, air filter, fuel filter, PCV valve, etc.)? Surging at idle can be caused by all kinds of problems, but none of them are terribly hard to fix. I would suggest checking the fuel pressure, which should be 9-13 PSI (don't just checked it with the engine sitting a parked, drive the car around and see if the pressure dips down too low under heavy acceleration), take the air cleaner off and inspect the TBI unit itself, especially the IAC (idle air control) valve. Over time carbon builds up in the IAC passage and can cause idle problems. A clogged catalytic converter may also cause problems, but I honestly can't remember how to test for a clogged cat at the moment.

Make sure to also check all of your vacuum lines. They get hard and brittle over time and crack. Check all of the ones that you can find, and make sure they're not clogged or anything like that, either. The PVC hose gets clogged up over time, for example. I would especially pay attention to the EGR vacuum lines, since your getting a code. As for your EGR problems, I would check the vacuum lines, make sure the EGR vacuum solenoid is plugged up, and try applying vacuum to the EGR valve and watch or feel the diapragm on the bottom for movement.
Not sure if it's related, but the smoke at start-up sounds like the classic valve seals. They get hard and brittle over time and allow oil to drop down into the cylinders. Valve seals go bad all the time in SBCs, and with the mileage on your car, I'm not surprised. They are not terribly hard to replace, but it does take some know-how, some special tools, and the time to do it, of course. A search on the board will yield plenty of discussions on valve seal replacement.
You definitely can if you want to, but I really see no point in it. The EGR system actually helps keep combustion temperatures lower in the engine. There really isn't going to be any gain from getting rid of the EGR system. Just keep it, in my opinion.

I don`t own a camaro, I have a 90 TBI chevy blazer, about the same set up you have in your car, I was having the same problem as you, I changed the plugs and plug wires, it made no difference, I removed the EGR valve and cleaned it, still no difference, so just for the hell of it I replaced the fuel filter, after doing that the bad idle and miss I had was gone. so sometimes its the simple things we over look. try a new fuel filter.

Thanks for the ideas you guys. well, I replaced the fuel filter. The car ran perfect until it was warm. When it warmed up it started idling really fast (1300 rpm in park and about 1000 in drive) and erratically. In park, it goes from 800 rpm to 1200 then down to about 600 then back to 800 and so on, and it has a rhythm to it--like it's being controlled. It also smokes for a longer period of time now when you start it up, the color of the smoke is gray/white and not blue. I drove down my street with my foot just barely pressing the throttle at about 30mph and like 1200 rpm, and the engine speed was still inconsistant--up down up down. Still just an idle problem??? I'm gonna take out the IAC valve anyway and see if it's dirty, and then check the EGR system's vacuum.

Previously I forgot to mention that the car is pinging quite a bit when you accelerate and after every upshift. I use 88 octane chevron, and when I put 91 in nothing changed.

Oh yeah...the previous owner said he just did a tune up on the car before he bought his mustang. He was trying to fix the problem himself. I forgot to mention that when I bought the car, two of the vacuum hoses had huge cracks in them, and the car was running rough. I replaced them, and then the car ran smooth but erratically. Who knows how long those hoses were sucking air in. Could that have caused some major damage?

thanx again--I'm very determined to solve the mystery!!
white80zred89rs

white

I had a pretty similiar problem with my 89 tbi motor, although it didnt idle as high as yours ... mine was the egr relay staying open and causing the egr valve to be open all the time.

Those cracked vacuum lines could have sucked in some crap to clog some things up. If you've driven this quite a bit and done some highway driving you will have gotten a code 32 if you have EGR problems. Although it may not set if it is stuck open at idle, try lifting up on the egr diaphram while idled and see if the car trys to stall. Run thriugh the whole EGR system just in case. I would change out the O2 sensor, recheck the vacuum lines, fuel filter, cap, rotor, plugs, wires, and then reset the ECM by disconnecting the negative battery cable for 30 seconds. After you reattach it let it idle for 5 minutes and see what happens. The smoke on startup is most likely bad valve seals. No big deal I've owned 5 camaros/firebird's and they have all had this problem. The car will still run just fine.

After I replaced the fuel filter, I took out the IAC to see if it was dirty and if the passage was clogged--nothing. I did notice that the spring on it was compressed all the way, so I reset it to 1 1/8" like the Haynes manual stated. It didn't make any difference. Then I tested the EGR solenoid, there was no vacuum from from the engine side of it (except when you first push the throttle)--Haynes said it was supposed to have at least 10". So I replaced it, and it didn't make a difference.

Then a funny thing happened. Instead of putting in 88 octane Chevron gas in, I had to put some Fina gas in. It was 89 octane. When I did this, the inconsistant idle calmed down quite a bit. It only does it a fews times, especially after you lay on the pedal alot around town. It is a very noticeable difference. Feels stronger. Still pings though.

I checked the timing just in case--right on.

Oh yeah, the hoses that were cracked were the ones connected to the large port on the intake, just behind the TB and in front of the distributor--leading to the vapor canister.

It isn't bothering me as much, but I still want to know what the problem is, and it's still pinging.

Any Ideas??
Thanx

Did you disconnect the timing control link on the firewall when you checked the timing? If not, you will be 25-28* retarded on your initial timing and your milage will drop to about 200mi. or less on a tank of gas not to mention the rough idle and surging!

If you didn't have any vacuum on the engine side of the solenoid then the solenoid isn't the problem. Check the hose to the vacuum source and see whats keeping vacuum out. There is a possiblitly that your surgeing and stuff was caused by bad gas. One of the worst times to fill up your tank is when the fuel truck is there filling up the service stations tanks. It mixes the water at the bottem of the tanks with the fuel. Or maybe the fuel load itself was bad. Like I said check vacuum source, you can check the solenoids operation by hooking up a 12volt supply to one side and grounding out the other side. If operational, vacuum will flow through the solenoid, but you need vacuum in order to see it work.

Thanks again to everyone who is trying to help
Anyway--I bypassed the solenoid and just ran the vacuum hose from the bottom front of the TB to the EGR valve. It didn't seem to make any difference other than the engine seemed to run a little hotter??

When I checked the timing I did disconnect that connector first. Before I disconneted it the timing was about 13* off. Sure does idle alot steadier though when its disconnected.

Oh yeah-I let the car run without the top on the air cleaner and just happened to notice that the clicking of the injectors would change every time the idling would become inconsistant. Does this point toward the ECM??

I've tried two different kinds of gas from two different stations--one was 89 octane and the other 91. The car runs the same with either one. It still surges at idle, but it's not nearly as bad as before, and the pinging hasn't changed.

The pinging is what kind of scares me now. Can it cause a lot of damage over time? It doesn't do it when I push the car, It only does it when I'm driving calmly every time it upshifts and the RPMs go down. There doesn't seem to be any affect on it's performance. The rear wheels chirp and throw the back end of the car around a little when it's shifts into second gear when my foot turns to lead

By the way, I just wanted to let everyone know that the car is still getting 20-22 mpg in city/highway driving. I don't think that's too bad.

Thanx again to everyone
Please continue to let me know stuff

Are you sure the ping isn't u-joints? If it happens when changing gears it might be those. Just a thought.

I just remembered something else. I had the same problem you did a while back and it drove me nuts, it turned out that the pipe from my smog pump to the cat broke loose and was smacking against the body when the car would shift. Just something to check out.

I'm pretty sure it's pinging cuz you can barely hear it an it does it when I lay on the gas a little just before it downshifts and while I'm going uphill. It doesn't make a peep when it is cold--everything is perfect when it's cold.

Seems like the smoke is getting worse as well, and I seriously think it has something to do with fuel rather than oil. Sometimes it smokes blue--when it's blue there is very little. Other times it smokes a more grayish color, and when it does that there is a whole bunch of smoke--all the smoke happens at start up. Could it have something to do with fuel? Like I said before, do you think it could have something to do with the ECM and the fuel injectors, knock sensor??

Sorry about my ridiculous attention to detail.

Oh yeah, I just got home from work, and while it was idling I noticed that the oil pressure guage was showing about 15 (maybe a little less; it wasn't quite halfway to the 30 mark)
I am just going to make sure I write everything I notice and hope someone somewhere will be able to figure out this problem!!

When your car burns oil the smoke will be blue and gray. It sounds like you have some really bad valve seals. This car might have had a hard life from some of the things you described. With that in mind you might want to look at your plugs see if they have gotten oil fouled. As far as the pinging goes, if you're sure it's engine related, start with the basics. I know it's been said already but go through the tune up procedure including oil change and fuel filter. It might be that someone installed the wrong plugs. Check for vacuum leaks near the base of the throttle body. Do you ever see a SES light? Make sure all vacuum lines are are sealed, and all sensors are functioning.

whoever said to not get rid of the EGR valve i love you! (well not really in the physical/emotional sense, just theoretic i guess). i hear too many people wanting to take it off when its not just a piece of emmisions equipment, it actually helps save your engine by lowering combustion temps which has a side effect to lower NOx gases (or the other way around too). mine is in need for replacement too i just haven't got around to it, that and the fuel filter. just don't give up on it like the previous owner, you'll find the problem eventually. i'm going through the same crap right now with my car just stick at it and ask lots of people smarter than you lots of questions

While it sounds like there could be a number of things causing some problems here. I would tend to think the idleing issue points to the O2 sensor if it idles ok when it's cold and bad when hot. The ECM hasn't gone into closed loop yet when it's cold and isn't relying on teh O2 sensor. Might change it out as long as you've changed a bunch of other things and they didn't take care of it.

When you checked the timiing with the connector unplugged was the timing right at 0*?

Actually, I just checked the timing again and (when you are in the front of the car) the mark is not at EXACTLY 0* It's still in the groove but not in the exact center of it--it's slightly to the right(driver side) I guess like one or two degrees, could this be causing the pinging?? Or would that be the other direction? I am kind of clueless about a lot of this stuff as you can tell. I tried to losen the bolt to move the distributor with one of those special tools you buy at autozone and the tool broke!! The bolt is so tight! I couldn't believe it--just something else to make all this a little more difficult. Do you have to point the timing light through that little tube above the teeth, cuz I didn't do that.?

maybe it is the o2 sensor. Those only cost like 20-30 bucks. When the car is warm it really makes a huge difference. No pinging or erratic idle EVER when it's cold. Wouldn't I have gotten a code for that though?

Also, while the engine was running (warm) tonight, for the hell of it I disconnected the hose from the EGR valve to see what the vacuum felt like again. Is it supposed to be sucking at idle? It only seemed to suck a little when I would push the throttle with my other hand. Just a little. Bad valve??

thanks again mgomez and everyone else for being so helpful. I'm glad I bought another F-body! Just wish it would work right!!

The egr solenoid will not allow vacuum at idle to the egr valve, if it did (and the egr valve was working) it would stall out the motor or at they very least cause it to idle really rough. The EGR is supposed to open on the highway. A o2 sensor is about 25 dollars from autozone. A bad o2 sensor wouldn't necessarily throw a code. It's kind of like haveing old plugs, the car will not run well but the ecm won't flag a code for it.

grey/white smoke could point to a coolant leak (head gaskets maybe?).

Correct me if i'm wrong but doesnt the ECM suck all kinds of timming out at the first sign of detonation?

I had the same problem with the distrubutor hold down bolt. I found a forged wrench from NAPA, i believe it was like $20. That got that sucker off, also sprayed something on it, i think pb blaster.

-chillen

I would think if he had a head gasket problem he would notice water in his oil. The ECM will correct for detoniation like you said, but given the symptoms I'm not sure if that's the problem. I think this is a case of multiple problems, and there isn't 1 "fix" for them all.

yea, i agree on the multiple problems idea. Just saying, sounds like you're hung up on the pings and i highly doubt that the engine is detonating, and even if it is, i doubt it'd be to the point that you'd hear it. However if that is the case, my first guess to fix that problem would be a faulty knock sensor.

Head gasket was just a guess, white smoke usually means burning coolant right? I dunno where the coolant gets to in order to burn though.

Stay with me you guys. I'm gonna work on the car this weekend: I found out a way to check the knock sensor (tap on the exhaust man. with a hammer while you're checking the timing). I may go ahead and get an o2 sensor as well.

The car died on me twice today. It was running just fine (at a steady 650 rpm) in drive at a stoplight both times, and then it just shut off. Started right back up though.

I just don't have much time this week. I got in trouble today at work (I'm 21 and work at a Ford Dealer) for "joyriding" with the top down in an 05 Mustang GT convertible. How are people supposed to see you in a car like that with the top up? Anyway, if I get written up one more time I'm fired so I've got to concentrate on work (and school) for at least a while. Alright you all don't care about that sh*t never mind.

I'll be back on on monday, please stick around. You all have helped me more than you know.

Thanx

Don't sweat it. Trial and error is what makes you better at this. Soon you'll be able to help someone else with the same problem

I'm back...
well, I did the knock sensor test. I had my friend hit the exhaust manifold with a hammer while I checked the timing. Sure enough, the timing changed every time he hit it. The engine would speed up too. Thing is, the timing wouldn't stay there--it would only change short spurts. Is that what is should be doing?

My Haynes manual said that if the connection to the TPS is faulty, then the injectors may spray extra fuel and the idle will be unstable from time to time because the computer thinks the throttle is doing. That is EXACTLY what my car is doing so I checked it out.

The plastic around the prongs on the connector that plugs into the TPS were broken on each prong and the pieces were inside the TPS. So i took the TPS off and got the pieces out and then tried to connect the connector again. I know it has something to do with that TPS though because the problem has gotten worse since I messed with things. My dad checked the sensor with a multimeter and said it should be working correctly.

Has anyone had problems with their TPS before????

W/B if anyone wants to

Damn this idle is pissing me off. It was doing fine and know it's screwing up again. I noticed tonight that when it's idling unsteady, and then you turn it off and start it up again it doesn't do it anymore. Hmm

Did you change out that O2 sensor yet? Get a good AC delco one, not a Bosch.

I've never had any problems with aftermarket o2 sensors, but in this situtation AC delco may be the way to go. I really think you need to get a factory service manual for your car. The Haynes books can be scetchy when it comes to performing tests. Also, the factory manual will have procedures for troubleshooting almost any kind of problem. There are a couple of websites that offer them new, or you can buy one on e-bay. I picked up my camaro service manual for $25.00. You might have to work through this problem backwards. Find out everything in the car that is working correctly, then you can eliminate things until only one is left. These problems can still mean a stuck egr. If it is open slightly you can get the problems you described.

Two things come to mind while I read your posts, 1. did you clean the passageway for the EGR in the manifold? When I had problems with a car the EGR was bad so I replaced it with no change, checked out the intake manifold and it was nearly plugged tight, it needs to free of debris. 2. as for the TPS connector, you should replace it with a new one and when you do make sure you solder the wires to get the best connection and then check the voltage as you go through the throttle motion. Your Haynes manual should tell you what it should be at idle and as you depress the throttle how it should be reading. Lastly, do make sure your vaccumn is good and stable at idle, if not check every fitting and hose to find it, given the mileage I would chnge all the hoses out anyway. Good luck..

The guy who had it before me changed out most of the vacuum hoses and I did the rest when I got it. He had just put in new spark plugs and wires as well. He always replaced everything with AC Delco parts--right down to the breather filter.

I was in line to buy a bosch oxygen sensor and the guy in front of me was taking so long that I had to get out of there and I didn't get to buy it. I'm glad.

I guess I'll get a delco o2 sensor. I think I may get a knock sensor just to do it, and I'll replace the TPS connector. All together should probably cost around $80.00. right?? Anyone know where to get a TPS connector?? I can't find one anywhere.

The car ran great today!! Drove 80 on the highway for an hour and when I got off it was idling really nice. I HATE intermittant (spelling?) problems!!!!!!!!! That don't give codes!!!

You could try companies such as Painless Wiring, they may be able to hook you up with the correct connector to do the job.

after you replace those parts run it in a time or two. If the old parts were bad the ECM will be getting bad values for things. With the new parts the ECM will "learn" with the new (correct)values. Does that make sense? A junkyard or a GM dealer might be another place to get the connector you're looking for.

I was driving home and the SES light came on. It was 32--EGR again. I already replaced the solenoid and hoses, so I bought a valve. Light hasn't some back on, but the car isn't running any better--actually feels worse. Still can't keep a steady idle and now it idles faster than before (inconsistant 1100 rpm in park). If I leave it in park, push the throttle, and hold it at 2000 rpm, it fluctuates; tries to go from 2000 to 1700 back to 2000, etc.

I bought an AC delco o2 sensor. List price was $56.00, but with my discount (I work at a dealership) it was only $36.00 I'll put it on as soon as I can.

My little brother's '90 H.O. Quad 4 (Grand Am) was running funny when it would warm up a while back. The rpm's would fluctuate as well, and the car would smoke black smoke and get bad mileage. My dad bought a computer for the car and that didn't fix the problem. My little brother got an o2 sensor and that fixed it. I forgot about that!! I hope that that will fix my problem as well. The camaro still gets good mileage though. If it doesn't fix it, I think I'll buy a computer.

I'll get back to you after the o2 sensor is in.
Thanx

A ECM should be the very last thing on your list. After you replace that O2 sensor get a factory manual and thumb through it. Hopefully the o2 will solve the problem.

replaced the o2 sensor--the car seems to run a little smoother all around, but the idling stuff is still happening.

I'm just going to lay low about the whole thing for a while. I wanted to find the problem before it got worse, but it seems like I'm only going to find it IF IT DOES get worse.

A friend told me it was probably bad injectors because of the loud inconsistant clicking that can be heard from them when the air cleaner is off--it seems to happen in conjunction with the unsteady idle.

School's out, so I'll be able to work full time instead of part time and make some extra money to buy expensive stuff like injectors and an ecm (if it comes to that). For right now--F**K IT!! AS LONG AS IT GETS ME TO WORK!!

So thanks again to everyone--particularly mgomez who never seemed to lose interest throughout this whole mess! I'll be on the TBI forum again when I have some money.

Later--

The incosistent clicking is probably the IAC slamming open to keep the engine from stalling.

What would make the IAC do that? I just had to replace it cuz the threads broke. Would a faulty ECM make it do that?

When I got my TBI RS, I had basically all the same problems you're having (except the exhaust was blowing pitch black smoke all the time). Turns out I had these problems:

·Bad EGR Valve
·Bad TPS
·Bad TPS Ground
·Bad O2 Sensor

Fixed this and the engine came back to pretty much stock performance. One thing I'd recommend investing in before going any further with this engine is a vacuum gauge & digital multimeter. I replaced three EGR valves before I fixed the real problems in the system (leaking vacuum lines & bad connections).

found this post on a search and wondered if you got all the bugs worked out. i had similar(sp?) problems w/ a 91RS TBI and ended up getting a new ECM and bought a PROM. it worked for me. hope you got yours running right.