My car in not running it is a 92 camaro with 5.0 tbi. I have tried a new computer, new injectors new pressure regulator and I am getting nothing. If I pull the tbi apart it will start and run for a minute or so before dieing out. I have checked to see if it is getting fuel so I pulled the fuel supply line from the tbi unti and had it directed into a cup, as soon I turn the key fuel flys out. I have bought a noid light and it did not flash with either the ne or the old computer. I have changed all of the injector and ecu fuses in the fuse block. I have been trying to diagnose for over a week with no luck, and I go back to work tommorrow with no casr for another week as I did last, please Help

 

Welcome to the boards-
It may be helpful if you can tell us a little more about your situation.
Was the car running properly prior to this current problem?
How many miles are on the car?
Is this something that happened all-the-sudden or has it slowly gotten worse and now just won't start?
How long has it been since the car has had a new fuel filter?

It sounds like a a fuel delivery problem, but the more info you can provide, the quicker you will get the problem solved.

There is a lot of talent on the boards here- many others much better than me- but they will probably need a little additional information in order to pin point the trouble.

Best-
S-D

Some of the things that immediately come to mind are fuel filter, check fuel pressure (that will tell you if the pump is taking a dump).

 

Basic diagnostic here and will require a buddy 1) check for spark - pull one plug and have a buddy watching while you crank or are running. If there is spark and it doesn't go away---> 2) check for fuel - make sure the injectors are spraying fuel while cranking/running. 3) If you have spark and fuel, then you need to look deeper such as fuel pressure, correct injectors, ECM, PROM ID, does the motor have compression? Is the fuel filter plugged?

 

fuel filter has been changed about 10,00 miles ago and that is the next thing i will be trying, it was running perfectly fine until one day on my way home from work it just completely died out on me. It has about 130,000 miles on it. As far as anything else to the problem the fuel is getting into the injector pods but they are not spraying whatsoever not even a drop. In the meantime before changin the filter any other ideas as to me it seems more of a problem of the injectors?

 

If you are getting nothing from the injectors, then the most likely candidates are: bad fuel pump, bad ECM, or faulty injector wiring/fuse or bad ground. A fuel filter does not clog up 100% (or have never seen one do that) You should be getting something out of the injectors if it is only a clogged filter

 

Have you looked at the codes to see what you are getting. I injectors have 12volts applied to them at all times when the car is running or when you are cranking. The computer only applies a ground to the injectors. Check the voltage at each injector, should be 12 volts to ground (use any part of the motor as ground point. Good luck
swap350tbi.

 

zeb, fuel is getting up into the injector pod the injectors are just not spraying, ecm is brand new however I just checked the noid light on the injectors and it is not lighting up, I dont see how the wiring can be bad though, if the injectors are not getting the 12 volts then how can I make sure they are getting it, and how can I check the codes with the car not running?

 

It sounds like you have a dead fuel pump. A dying pump can still pump a little fuel giving you the impression that the pump is not the culprit. I would test the feed line pressure. Chances are yours is 5psi or less.

 

swap where should i put the postive lead on the injector?

 

shifty what should the pressure read? I am trying to get around buying a tester as the only place I have found one is napa for $80, autozone or pep boys do not stock a tbi presure tester

 

You should look for 9 to 12 psi at idle. If you are lower your car probably won't run even though you see fuel is pressent. I had two pumps faill in this same manor. You should be able to rent a tester from autozone without buying it.

 

I actually called autozone again looking for a tester they said they dont rent them anymore but I did find one for $30 there I am going to head out to pick it up now and should have an update with the next 40 min as to the pressure
thanks for the help shifty

 

went to autozone to get tester, they only had units for multi-port injection and the closest autozone that had one is 40 minutes away in santa fe so I decided to just replace the pump, with a unit made for the tpi since I am currently gathering parts to do an lt1 intake swap. Will be working on the fuel pump over the course of the week after I get off work and in between jobs on tuesday and thursday, most likely will not be completed until next monday night. If anyone knows of any tricks to make the fuel pump install easier I would really appreciate them.
thanks for everyones help

 

Try to get the exhust out of the way as much as you can and try to lower the rear as far as it will go. I also like to remove the fuel neck plastic mounting housing from around the gas cap so that you have room to twist the neck around. This helps get it out.

When you remove the lock ring make sur eto use a brass punch sot hat you do not create any sparks. Other than that is is a plug and play deal. You are smart going with a TPI pump.

 

^ This is what bothers me.


A dead fuel pump can definitely cause a similar problem (and I'm not saying it isn't your problem), but if your getting no flashing light from a noid light, something else is wrong.

Something is telling the ECM not to fire the injectors. I second the suggestion to check for spark, like zeb1999 mentioned. It's starting to sound like an ignition control module (ICM) and/or pick-up coil problem, but don't replace them just yet. Check for spark, and remove your old ICM and have it tested for free at Autozone.

 

where is the icm located?

 

I belive he is refering to the ignition module in the distributor. The ecm recieves a reference pulse from the dist to fire the injectors.

Steve

 

steve8586iroc is right. It's in the distributor, once you take the distributor cap off you will be able to see it. There are just 2 bolts holding it in, and 3 electrical connectors on it.

Looks like this:

 

Easy check for that is to crank the engine and listen for the fuel pump. No pump, no reference pulses, and its likely the module is dead.

 

took the icm to autozone tonight and it tested out good, however the rotor looked pretty badly burt especially considering tuneup was only about 10000 miles ago. Replaced rotor and put on the old cap as the autozone i went to did not have one and it was too late to make it to another before they closed. car would fire up and immediatly die. Plugged in noid light to injecter and it was lighting up. Now should I try a new dist. cap or will that not make a difference I am trying to keep all this as cheap as I can since in the next few months I am switching to an lt1 intake and goign with an all msd ignition. If anyone thinks it may fix it I have no problem spending the $15. Or is this pointing to the fact that it is the fuel pump? Thanks guys I willa ttempt more work on it after I get off tommorrow at 7pm should have an hour or so before I need to get ready for my 2nd job

 

If the rotor was that bad, I would definitely go ahead and replace the cap. I doubt it causing your immediate problem, but sometimes you just never know with these cars. It's starting to sound like a bad fuel pump to me too, like the other guys have mentioned.

 

replaced cap no change, started working on the fuel pump today in the 1 hour I had between appointments and got the exhaust out of the way and the shield removed from the tank, have never dealt with a fuel tank before is there a drain plug somewhere and if not whats the best way to drain it, hopefully can get an answer to work on it in the morning

 

There is no drain plug on the fuel tank (I wish there was), but there is a pretty easy way to drain it. There is more than one way to do it, but this is how I like to do just because it's not as messy.


First, disconnect the 3/8" fuel feed line (best place is at the place where the metal fuel line and the rubber fuel line meets in the driver's side of the engine compartment. Collect the gas that comes out when you disconnect the fuel line, and then stick the rubber fuel line in a gas can.

Here's where to disconnect the 3/8" fuel line, right next to that vacuum line is running:


Now go to the ALDL connector (what you use to check codes with, right next to the fuse box under the steering column) and install a piece of wire or a bent paper clip from pin "A" to "G". This will cause the fuel pump to run, and all of the gas will run straight to the gas can.

ALDL connector (don't pay attention to the arrows or the sentence, just the letters):




The easiest method is probably to just disconnect a fuel line that is lower than the fuel tank, like where the fuel filter is, for example. The gas will drain out of there since it's lower than where the fuel tank is, but it may take a while to completely drain, depending on how much fuel is still in the tank.

If sure there are more ways to do this than just the 2 I described.

 

as far as getting the gas tank out does the brace running under need to be removed because the bolts on it are really rusted and I just dosed them with some pb blast in hopes they will come off also are the two bolt straps all that holds the tank in place?

 

Did you check TPS voltage?

FWIW I'd have definitely checked FuelPressure before dropping the tank....I saw a suggestion for you to do it, but didn't notice in the thread if you had.

 

Yes, the 2 braces have to come down and out, and they are what holds the gas tank in. Just don't forget to disconnect the fuel lines and electrical connector before dropping the tank down. And it might help to have someone help guide the filler neck when you do drop the tank, it will take some manuevering and thinking to get it out. Just be patient.

 

how do i check the tps voltage? Also a fuel pressure tester for tbi was $40 and I am going to switch over to an lt1 over the winter, which at that point I was goign to swap out the fuel pump anyway

 

To test the TPS, you need a multimeter. There are 3 wires connected to the TPS, black, blue, and gray. Strip back the insulation of the 3 wires (you can also backprobe the 3-wire connector on the TPS with small pins as well) and set the multimeter to DC volts. Turn the key to KOEO (key on engine off) and put the meter leads on the black wire and the gray wire. You should see 5 volts (5v). Now put the leads on the black wire and the blue wire. With the throttle closed you should see somewhere around 0.5v, and with the throttle all the way open you should see over 4.5v. Slowly open and close the throttle while watching the readings. There should be no voltage spikes, dips, sticking, or anything like that, it should stay linear.

 

You mentioned that you put a new ECM in. Did you reuse your origional PROM? There may be some discrepencies with the VATS.

BTW, the only thing that the tps can do in a situation like this is cause the computer to enter flood clear. The injectors will still fire but deliver less fuel.

 

no i used the same prom, I am attempting next to replace the pickup coil as the noid light only blinks at times and not others since having the module checked, however how do I get it off my chilton book says remove 3 screws from magnetic sheild, does the ditributor need to come out? In the book it just says remove cap and rotor and then goes into the sheild part but I can not find these screws anywhere, pics would be of great help although a description would be just as good

 

The whole dist. needs to come out. The trigger wheel (reluctor or whatever it is) on the dist. shaft sits above the p/u coil. Basically you have to remove the dist. gear and take the shaft out in order to access the coil. It simply pops out. While you have it out, put a new module in and thoroughly clean the dist. base, hold-down clamp, and area on the intake that the clamp contacts.

 

just for the heck of it when I went out to work on getting the fuel pump out I gave it try to see if it would start and it did, ran for about a minute and then died, tried again and it ran for 30 seconds or so, then after that the injectors stopped firing. However when it did run there was some smoke coming from back by the dist. I then went out to check for spark once it got dark and it was firing, however I saw it arc back near the dist again, so I pulled the air cleaner to see if it would do it again, and it did once again, however it was not light enough to see exactly where it was happening so I went and got a flashlight and could not get that arc to heppen again, any new ideas? Ignition module was checked at Autozone and it checked out good, it has a new cap and rotor, and the coil is only about 40,000 miles old it is an msd blaster 2. thanks

 

Id say its time for all new wires, cap, rotor, module, possibly coil, even if they where previously replaced. Might even want to check the P/U coil to see if it has any damage from the arcing.

 

bwidner1,
I think you had tried so many things that you do not
know what you have tried. First sit down and write down
each thing you have tried and each thing you have
changed. I know this may sound stupid but if you are
trouble shooting you need to know what you have done and
what is the next thing you will try. I told you to check
the error codes and write them down this will help to
find the problem. Now go to the ALDL connector (what you use to check codes with, right next to the fuse box under the steering column) and install a piece of wire or a bent paper clip from pin "A" to "B". turn on the ignition to the On position, but do not
try to start the car, the fuel pump should come on and build up pressure then shut off, (make sure you can hear this) now the service engine light (or CHECK ENGINE light) will start to blink. First it will blink 1 time then pause and then blink 2 times, this is code 12, it will do this 3 times, (this indicating that the diagnostic system is working) after which it will blink the error codes. Write then down and post them. If you do not have a code chart then someone can tell you what errors you have. Remember after the third 12, you will start the error codes. I think someone told you to check and see if you are getting spark did you try this?
I know that you have started to work on the dist. if you
are getting spark then there is no need to fix something
that isn't broken. Oh yes if you have been trying to crank
you car as much as it sounds like I think I would check
the oil level, when you pump gas into an engine if you
don't burn it then it has to go some were and this will
be your crank case. Also if you see arcing from the dist.
This would be high voltage arcing if so then it will do it
again. Try to start your car at night again and look to see were
it is arcing (have a light ready when doing this).
swap350tbi

 

Arcing near/in the dist. can really screw up the module. Get that problem addressed first if it does indeed exist.

 

yes I have checked to see if i am getting spark and that is the point when it arced, I will check for trouble codes this evening and update

 

checked for codes and there are non showing it just kept showing code 12
as far as fuel in the crankcase the injectors are not firing and thats the problem heres a rundown of what i did
replace fuel injectors and pressure regulator and it started and ran fine the 2 miles home and then for about 30 minutes after that before not starting 2 days later.
Replace fuel pumps relay, nothing
tried a new ecm (best friend works at autozone)nothing so i returned it.
replaced cap and rotor then checked for spark which I am getting and thats when it arced.
As far as the pump turning on and building pressure it only does that after I was able to get it started last night but not today.
theres the run down of the things I have attempted, if no one has any ideas I will buy that fuel pressure regulator as replacing the fuel pump at this point in time is over my head as I do not have the room or tools to do it and would like to avoid it if possible for the next few months until my house with the 4 c/g is done being built

 

is it possible you have a loose ground strap back there on the firewall or head? I don't know if that could cause your problems but it came to mind when you said you saw arcing.

 

checked the ground strap and it did not appear to be loose or damaged I will however replace it on friday which is the next chance I will get to be out at the car whne it is still light out if anyone thinks it will help, do we have any other ideas short of buying the fuel pressure tester and seeing if the pump is producing the pressure or anyway to check the pick up or regular coil, the ignition module was checked at autozone and checked out good a few days ago, but that was before the arc

 

bwidner1,
Here is what I did to check my fuel pressure. If you can get to a junk yard that has Camaros take the fule supply line off one of the junk cars. Cut it into and go to the hardware store and get a brass female 1\8 "T" get the barbed connectors that fit the hose (don't forget the clamps). I think it is 3\8", install the "T" into the cut hose, now go to the local auto supply store and get a 30 psi gage and install it into the open connection of your "T". now take out the supply hose on your car and install the hose with the gage, now you have a fuel gage that you can leve in line. I don't think it cost you more than $20 (see the above picture "Benm109"). I think you need to find were the arcing is coming from, the only think that would arc is high voltage and that comes from your coil and goes to the dist. center connection. The rotor rotates and fires each plug when the ignition module tells it to. If you have had arcing then you will have a carbon line were it arced, the high voltage will continue to follow this line until it is cleaned and sometimes you cann't clean all the carbon off.
swap350tbi

 

I will try cleaning the wire and the coils terminal is there anything I can try to clean to fix it?

 

Cleaning it may not help. The high voltage can carbon track internally inside the layer of nylon fibers that strengthens the wires. Ive had this happen and basically it turned an entire wire into silicon oxide dust... It literally went 'poof' when I touched it. Verify that the arcing is coming from the dist, and replace all wires, cap, rotor at the very least. It all needs to go once arcing has occured. High voltage can do strange things. Also very, very carefully inspect the high voltage terminal on the coil and make sure it has no tracks or burned spots on the metal terminal itself and check the coil per whats instructed in a service manual.

Also make sure that your not using any plugs with screw-on terminals.

Oh, as I said before fix this first! If arcing is interfiering with the module, then the ecm wont fire the injectors since it wont have reference pulses.

 

I will be trying all of that tommorrow evening and if that does not work I will be testing the fuel pressure although it is coming out of the supply line and back out the return so I think it has to do with it arcing

 

got the dist out and I can not figure out how to get the gear off, please help thanks, have a new pu coil wires module cap and rotor ready to go

 

You'll need a small drift punch...look at the gear, you'll see a "rollpin"...that has to be knocked out, and is what is holding the gear on.

Once the pin is knocked out, slide the gear off, and the shaft up through the housing.

 

i dont see a pin anywhere on the previous dist. I have worked on there has been a pin running through them but not on this one, there is whata lmost looks like one inside but if I tried punching that through there is nowhere for it to go, it is on a 1992 which I do beleive the dist i diff from the rest of the third gens

 

It's gotta be there, might be gunked up from coked oil or something...but there has to be a rollpin holding the gear on. Take after it with a wirebrush.

 

found rollpin it was all gunked up got it out and got the new p/u coil on, in the process of cleaning up the mating surfaces and then will be putting it all back together, ignition module tested good again at autozone last night when I went to buy the punch, so I am putting on an accel cap and rotor I bought last night and hopefully it will fire up in the next few hours, it will be a few as I have a management meeting I need to go to at work

 

well it is all back in the car now however the timing is way off, so far that it wont even run long enough for me to see which way I need to set it, when cleaning the dist. with a wire brush I took off the marks I had made as to the rotors position, what is the best way to time it with no reference point, I know I should bring the #1 cylinder to tdc but what is the best way? thanks to everyone who has helped out, and the pickup coil was so fried it fell apart when I touched the old one to pull it off

 

Stick your finger in the #1 spark plug hole and have someone bring the engine around toward TDC. When you feel compression (air hissing out) your on the #1 compression stroke. Bring the timing mark on the balancer to TDC. Place the dist. with the rotor facing toward the #1 terminal. If it doesnt engage the oil pump (sticks up 1/4 of an inch) you can just turn the engine till it falls in or use a long screwdriver to index the pump drive shaft with the dist. shaft.

You can then line the 'points' on the reluctor in the center of the dist. up with the p/u assembly. With the rotor facing the #1 terminal, this is exactly TDC for the dist. Rotate teh dist. counterclock wise about 10 degrees. This will advance the timing a bit and allow the motor to start right up. Bolt it all up and see if it then works.

You can use a breaker bar to turn the engine but dont use the harmonic balancer bolt. Summit/Jegs sells an adaptor that bolts to the harmonic balancer/crank pully that allows you to turn the engine over without risking breaking the harmonic banancer bolt off in the crank snout or stripping the threads.