i know my tbi engine cuts off at about 4500rpm....this is due to the stroke,heads cam intake and the like.....will stroking to 335ci remedy this low rpm problem.....i want a motor that will rev past 6 grand.......and still have power......i guess i would use edelbrock heads.....edelbrock headers to 3" collector to 3" edelbrock cat back.....rpm air gap mainfold w/ adapter plate, not sure on what cam......any suggestions? besides a 350?


------------------
1991 RS LO3

some of my favorite quotes:

I do not blame stupid people for being stupid, what i do blame them for is for not asking smart people for advice. When ever my mom asks for help, i tell her, i'm the one who knows what he's doing, not you, don't question me, just do what i tell you to. if stupid people would just realize they were stupid, and consult a smart person for advice, before they went and did something stupid and got pregnant/got someone pregant, this ****hole of a world would be a lot better. - adam corola

Honda makes great performance cars - any scarcastic comedian

 

it revs to 4500 because of the crappy exaust system, intake snorkel, and cam.

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship :
Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248), Catco 3" cat, and injector spacer.

Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz

 

And Your littttle dog TOO

------------------
91 FireBird 305 V-8
Edelbrock Catback, Fourth Gen Console. i have six cupholders. all for starbucks!
ghetto rigged cold air intake,
GheTTo Riggers INC.
We Make Mcgyver look Like Crap
God Created The Earth, And Then Turned Up The Bass

Part Search, I NEED A Harness For A Radiator fan, THANX

 

Like Tas said, the biggest reasons for the high rpm blues is the cam/exhaust.

An engine with a longer stroke can't rev as high safely as a engine with a shorter stroke can.

 

Yep, they're right. Adding more stroke will not give you more top end, plain and simple. It might actually even run out of steam SOONER because the increased airflow will make everything max out at even lower RPM levels than it does now. IMO stroking a 305 is a waste of time. The bores are so small it shrouds the valves, and even if you get good heads/cam/etc this problem will always be there. The 305 is just a nutered 350, why not just go for the real thing?

BTW I don't mean to sound like a total *****, it just kinda came out that way. No offense to anyone intended.

------------------
88 Camaro (not an RS, or an IROC, justa camaro.)
305TBI/700R4/2.73
14" Open Element and Flowmaster 80 seires

Next up: headers and gears

 

why dont i get the 350? because im cheap for one......and second everyone has a 350....in different forms or another....the new camaros have 350's essentially.....355's 383's they're everywhere........i DONT want a 350......and a 305 is not a nuetered 350....that would be a 327.......any other suggestions?

 

The reason that everyone decides to go with 350's is because it is just as cheap, if not cheaper to build as a 305. You just get more power for your money. You can go fast with a 305(i do NOT recommend spending alot ofmoney to have it stroked), but you will most likely need a power adder to get some good numbers out of a 305.

If you put a pwer adder on your 305, it is gonna be alot stressful so you will most likely want to upgrade your bottom end. By the time you are done doing all of this you will have spent twice as much money as you would have if you would buy a 350 and still have the same power. Just my $.02

------------------
*1989 RS
*Red, Daytona Turbo fiberglass hood, chrome 16x8 IROC wheels
*355 CID
*TPI ported plenum, SLP siamesed runners, Edelbrock high flow intake
*Edelbrock TES Headers (getting SLP 1 3/4 this summer)
*Richmond 3.73, Auburn Posi
*Modded 700-R4, 2800 stall converter
*NO recent time slips.

 

I don't like the idea of a 350 either. I'd rather get a 327, 385, 400, or 406.

 

**** that. 350 and TBI, tell me how many people have done that! I can count them on one hand. Now 350 in general....that's a different story. Personally I hate the small bore of the 305. The 4" bore with ~3.5" stroke has been proven to be a better power ratio than the 3.75" bore of the 305. If you want to do something different, take a 350 and go 6 over to make it a 360. Or go with a big block! I don't think I'd be impressed with a stroked 305. I think it might be cool to say I have a stroked....but that's about it. At the track you've proven to most people that you can spend as much money as the guy with the 350 and still you make less power. The aftermarket heads are also a problem for the 305. The best small block heads are designed for a 4" bore, not the smaller 3.75". With the smaller bore you now have to take into consideration valve size and options as far as small cc heads!
Like I said earlier, if you don't like a 350, bore it out. Or don't bore it and make a 377!
How about not worring about the engine displacement and more so on the intake. Or do a cool engine swap, turbo, supercharge, be creative but don't turn down a 350 because everybody else has one.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

you are clueless from your post, and if your so cheap why are you even trying to modify anything but a 350!!! the parts are the cheapest and at that, you will be looking into the 3-$4000 to stroke to 383. save your money until you can put a lawn tractor engine in your car, no one has this and you will be unique!!

"essentially.....355's 383's they're everywhere......."
by the way if you would take the time and search, there are not many 383tbi's out there! just search the board

383 stroker, 64cc 23deg trickflow heads c/w edlebrock performer intake and adapter, cam is an extreme 4x4 comp. Cam. 12-235-2 grind ( .447/.462 lift, duration 210 218 lift @50, 111 lobe separation) . unit has hypr. Flattop floating pistons, eagle cast crank, 5.7eagle rods. 10.2:1 comp. Headers c/w 2.5” flowmaster exhaust. 16147060 pcm, $85def
454tbi 80lbinjectors


[This message has been edited by prscarf (edited August 02, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by prscarf (edited August 02, 2001).]

 

Wouldnt a 350 still beat out a 327.....

and not to mention when you get that "305" "327" to beat 350's

you will have no MPG...



Gluck anyways man,
i second the notion of 350 then bore

------------------
91 FireBird 305 V-8
Edelbrock Catback, Fourth Gen Console. i have six cupholders. all for starbucks!
ghetto rigged cold air intake,
GheTTo Riggers INC.
We Make Mcgyver look Like Crap
God Created The Earth, And Then Turned Up The Bass

Part Search, I NEED A Harness For A Radiator fan, THANX

 

I like this guy's idea of doing something to the 305 but simply for the fact that stangs can do it and hand us our asses alot of the times... why is it that its so hard to get good power out of an f-body 305 than it is a Ford 305? I'd like to see what has to be done to prove this wrong...

yeah yeah yeah, I know everybody's gonna come back and say its not worth it and you're spending way too much money on it but *hey* I consider going to a 350 in order to beat a stang cheating... how bout keeping the displacement field level?

------------------
~Luke a.k.a. pianiy
'91 Firebird :: 305/TBI/700R4 ::
Mods: Catco cat - B&M Shift kit - TA tail lights - GTA rims - K&N - MacEwen guages
Stereo: Pioneer DEH-P8200R - Pioneer 6x9's - Kenwood 8" Tube
::R.I.P.::'87 Firebird - Firebird parts - Selling an '80 Firebird for a friend
Moderator of tranny board over at TransAmGTA.com

 

a pre 68 327 can kick most 350s butt. It comes with a forged crank and camel hump heads. It can rev to 8000 easily. A roller cam 350 can't rev past 6500.

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship :
Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248), Catco 3" cat, and injector spacer.

Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz

 

I'm not a ford lover but they do have some advantages. First, if a 302 is in a bustang then they aready have a large weight advantage, second, the 302 ford has a 4" bore (better breathing capabilities) and 3" stroke ala Chevy 302, the third and probably not last is that the ford 302 is the second most engine built next to the 350 chevy there for parts are plentiful and are almost as cheap. Rember tha for every 100lbs of weight you gain or lose one tenth of a second in the 1/4mi. Just something to think about.

Steve

 

Fords have 302's. And i think they make alot more power because they have a bigger bore, kinda like a 350 has.

------------------
*1989 RS
*Red, Daytona Turbo fiberglass hood, chrome 16x8 IROC wheels
*355 CID
*TPI ported plenum, SLP siamesed runners, Edelbrock high flow intake
*Edelbrock TES Headers (getting SLP 1 3/4 this summer)
*Richmond 3.73, Auburn Posi
*Modded 700-R4, 2800 stall converter
*NO recent time slips.

 

they have the same bore and stroke as a chevy 302. 4" bore, 3" stroke. They make great power from their intakes. They have very long runners to make torque to go along with the natural setup of making HP.

 

Weigh your options more. And figure out your goal. Do you want cheap power? Or do you want to be different? With a 305 block, you can't do both.

For the sake of being different, go for it!!!!!! After all, that's why we all have 3rd gen f-bodies. Mustangs are on the street at about 4 to 1 over Camaros. We have the Camaros so that we are different. At least that's why I have mine.

Hell, even Mr. Chevrolet started his own company to be different. He did work for Cadillac, then figured out that he could build cars for a cheaper price to sell to the public. If he wanted to do what everyone else did, then he would have stayed at Cadillac like all the other employees. Then we wouldn't have the cars we do today.

But for horsepower:dollar ratio, a 350 is the way to go. It's parts are plentiful and pretty damn strong. Plus you don't have to worry about finding a replacement if it breaks tomorrow. Replacements are everywhere. One thing you can't argue with is that if a lot of people are using them, then they must work pretty well.

I say do it to be different. FYI, I gotta a friend with a '86 Monte Carlo that runs 13.32et with a 305/th350/7.5" gears-3.42 w/ no posi. I'm sure he could do better with a 350, but it's great to see people drop there jaws when he blows them away on the street, then he tells them it's a 305. It's funny as hell.

AJ

 

Not here, I'd say on the street there are more fbodys. At the track it seems the number of fbodys might equal or be a little lesser than the number of mustangs.

[This message has been edited by Keith5 (edited August 02, 2001).]

 

ok......how about thinking outside of the box all you 350'ers.....why not conjure up a plan here...maybe we could bore it out but keep the shortened stroke.....i agree with the keeping the field even.......i actually am think of a supercharger to run with it......not a big one but one to give it the extra oopmh to get 12's and still get decent MPG...these are muscle cars....how bout giving them some more muscle and giving the bird to mpg.....if care about getting 20mpg you shouldnt be driving a muscle car.....

------------------
1991 RS LO3

some of my favorite quotes:

I do not blame stupid people for being stupid, what i do blame them for is for not asking smart people for advice. When ever my mom asks for help, i tell her, i'm the one who knows what he's doing, not you, don't question me, just do what i tell you to. if stupid people would just realize they were stupid, and consult a smart person for advice, before they went and did something stupid and got pregnant/got someone pregant, this ****hole of a world would be a lot better. - adam corola

Honda makes great performance cars - any scarcastic comedian

 

Basic information for everybody:
305 and 350 chevy have same stroke, different bore (350 better ratio for power and efficiency).
305 VERY different from both chevy 302 and ford 302.
327 doesn't rev higher than 350 or 383, it just feels that way because of the lack of torque down low. The 350 and 383 have a flatter torque curve and so the 302 and 327 feel dead until 3000. It's been common belief that the 327 revs higher but it's usually not true. Good research/knowledge on the forged crank and camel hump heads Taz!
The older blocks (down to the 283 small block) have MUCH larger cylinder walls than the common 305. The older engines can be bored out easily, the 350 is the same but the 305 is a BlTCH.
Tim aka NJSpeeder is buying my old engine from me to rebuild. All power too him, I think it's cool to have a really fast 305 but I'm not about being unique. I have a TBI intake, a stereo second to none, and a very unique car setup (drag, strip, daily driver, auto cross, you name it!).
There was a kid with a 91 1LE that had a supercharger with like 12psi on a 305 (TPI though) and it ran a best 12.8 so don't think a mild supercharger is going to do wonders. I do think N2o and super C is a great idea for the 305 considering it's lack of displacement.
Always remember, "no replacement for displacement!"

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

 

yes a 327 can rev higher than most 350s and 383s because of the shorter stroke and better stock parts. The longer stroke of the 350, and 383 creates tremenodus rod speeds that are very unfavorable unless you use a longer rod with them. I did a lot of research on the 327 when helping my friend with his '68 camaro. You will need to spend a lot more money on a 350 or a 383 to make it rev as high as 327. The shorter with the stroke the easier it is to rev. Built 283s can hit 9000+, built 327s can go 8000, built 350s about the same but it will be a lot more pricey. These are all non hydraulic roller cam motors. Hydraulic roller cam motors will max out around 6500, where they hydraulic lifter plunger will collapse

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship :
Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248), Catco 3" cat, and injector spacer.

Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz

 

I wondered how long it would take for eveyone to figure out the strokes are the same.

 

Everybody knows the strokes of the 305 and 350 are the same.

 

probably not the people who think how far their speedo reads is how fast their car is...you'd be surprised.....

------------------
1991 RS LO3

some of my favorite quotes:

I do not blame stupid people for being stupid, what i do blame them for is for not asking smart people for advice. When ever my mom asks for help, i tell her, i'm the one who knows what he's doing, not you, don't question me, just do what i tell you to. if stupid people would just realize they were stupid, and consult a smart person for advice, before they went and did something stupid and got pregnant/got someone pregant, this ****hole of a world would be a lot better. - adam corola

Honda makes great performance cars - any scarcastic comedian

 

More power to Tim for going with the 305! I bought a 5sp rebuild kit several years back from a team/company that races Camaros in American Sedan class in SCCA that on a boring off weekend took their car to a 1/4 mile and ran 13.2 on a roadrace setup. These cars have to run by the rules a stock 305 block and heads with a Edel performer RPM intake with .480 max lift cam.

------------------
91 RS L31 350..... Vortec heads..... Holley 670..... Edel. intake .... Lt4 cam 1.6 rollers ..... Edel. TES headers .. 3" exhaust ..... 5spd 3.08

 

I was referring to sales numbers. Just curious, have you ever seen them? They are repulsive. The Mustang sales, with exception of select years, outsold the Camaro by a very wide margin. I mean a very W I D E margin. I guess the Camaro is too "impractical" for the average American. But like I said, we're not average, are we? HEHE!!

 

thats because the mustang s are all cushy feeling...they ride nice and pretty but dont handle worth **** on the track....the camaros on the other hand had the handling department down pat....but my RS rides like a damn skateboard....not good for daily driving(unless you like that sort of thing)

------------------
1991 RS LO3

some of my favorite quotes:

I do not blame stupid people for being stupid, what i do blame them for is for not asking smart people for advice. When ever my mom asks for help, i tell her, i'm the one who knows what he's doing, not you, don't question me, just do what i tell you to. if stupid people would just realize they were stupid, and consult a smart person for advice, before they went and did something stupid and got pregnant/got someone pregant, this ****hole of a world would be a lot better. - adam corola

Honda makes great performance cars - any scarcastic comedian

 

How about just calling your 350 a 305? Where is the harm done? If I put a big block in my car, I would leave the 350 fender badges. Just think of all the unsuspecting prey you coudl ****** up.

------------------
69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

 

Yea. That's what I meant by impractical. And yes I do like that sort of thing. And yes I do drive my car daily. About 25-30 miles a day, just b&f to work. Some of us are "drivers" not riders. Like you, right? You must be a driver if you own a Camaro. F#ck practicality. That's for old fogies!!!

 

I like practicality. That's why I got a cavalier and a firebird. I drive which every one I feel like at the time, it runs about half and half, I drive 40-50 a day.

Does the mustang outsell the camaro and firebird combined by a wide margin? If so that's still not the reason that the fbody's are leaving, I read an article that says that the fbody is one of GM's most profitable vehicle. They just won't pass 2003 side impact standards.

 

Keep in mind thats also a TPI 305, not a TBI.

Lets talk combination here. A 305 is set up wrong for horsepower. It has the smallest bore of ANY small block chevy engine. Now you want to stroke it, you're taking somethign already bad and making it worse.

Why do you think everyone and their father/mother/brother builds a 350? Because its the best bang for the buck. Parts are cheap, plentiful, and easy to use. And there are plenty of examples of good combinations to follow. There are blueprints out there for 200 horsepower 350's all the way up to 500 horsepower and beyond. Pick one, and use it. Who cares if its been done before, you want to go fast, right?

Sure you can build up your 305, and you can build it up pretty nicely. But you'll spend more money doing it, you'll have to search all over to find parts, and you still wont make as much power as a similar 350. So why bother? Use the 305 as it was intended, as a gas-friendly, smog-friendly engine for a daily driver. Build up 350's and larger for performance cars.

Oh, and one more thing, if you build something too wild, it wont idle or run right with the stock chip. And then you'll be upset at having to spend more money to have it tuned with a custom chip. My dad built a 383 TBI for an 87 El Camino, converting it from LG4 carb. He's been burning chips for it for two weeks, he's up to at least 50 now, and he's still got a ways to go. The TBI computer is really finicky, and there's not a lot you can change on it to correct for non-stock applications. The main fuel table only goes up to 3200 RPMs!

------------------
1991 Camaro Z28
5.7L 5-Speed (originally 305)
13.23 @ 107.62 MPH
Southern California
Member: SoCal 3rd Gen F-Bodies
Webmaster: SoCal F-Bodies
-=ICON Motorsports=-

[This message has been edited by Kevin91Z (edited August 05, 2001).]

 

Actually I was wrong, you're right Taz about the shorter stroke and velocity stuff. I'm just pointing out that they don't make MORE power up higher. It's just that the longer strokes make more power faster.
Kevin, not trying to be a nit picker but the smallest bore small block chevy was the 262 with a 3.671 standard and was only 3.731 6 over. The 305 bore is 3.736 and the actual 350 bore is 4.001, not an even steven 4 . Don't you hate me now, lol
Back on subject, 350....GET IT IF YOU CAN!!!!
There is no reason not to get a proven performer just because everybody else has one. There are so many exotic intakes and cool stuff for the small block that you can be unique in SO many other ways. The best part is that our cars came with everything from a 4 banger to a 350. 350 being the biggest and best engine for the thirdgens. Now if you want to be unique, shoehorn an LS1 or bigblock in! That might be cool but when it comes to $$$ the 350 swap is best bang for buck by far.

edit: I'm sorry, after doing a little more research on the smallest bore chevy small block. The winner is the 267. It had a 350 crank and a very small bore of 3.500 inches. Talk about a piece.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

[This message has been edited by JPrevost (edited August 05, 2001).]

 

This may not be totally unique and is far from easy, but you could always go LT1! It may be easier to go carb, and probably could get more power for less $$, but reliability and MPG would be hard to beat, plus their computers don't mind mods very much at all unlike ours. And think of the look you'd get from people when you open your hood! Every now and then one comes along, theres one in my local classifieds for $1100, complete engine, computer, and all wiring! Damn i wish i had some money and another car to drive for about a month!

------------------
88 Camaro (not an RS, or an IROC, justa camaro.)
305TBI/700R4/2.73
14" Open Element and Flowmaster 80 seires

Next up: headers and gears

 

Hey buddman if you are so worried about being original why don’t you go with a 4 banger that came stock with the cars and try to make it fast NA. because It sure seems your not looking for the cheep way.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin91Z:
[B] Keep in mind thats also a TPI 305, not a TBI.

Not TPI or TBI, they have to run a Holley dbl-pumper. But, you can beleive that they do not run the tbi heads. I agree on what Kevin and JP are saying. The most bang for the buck comes with the 350 and you will have the most referance material available as most mild to serious build ups use this combo. I'm convinced, read my sig!

------------------
91 RS L31 350..... Vortec heads..... Holley 670..... Edel. intake .... Lt4 cam 1.6 rollers ..... Edel. TES headers .. 3" exhaust ..... 5spd 3.08

 

firbird......really....a 4 banger?......right......will a 540 TBI fit under my stock hood???? hehehe havent seen anything over 454 cubes in a camaro or firebird....maybe i could use that.....oh riced out civics are cheap and plentiful too..and i wouldnt want anything remotly associated to rice now would i???

------------------
1991 RS LO3

some of my favorite quotes:

I do not blame stupid people for being stupid, what i do blame them for is for not asking smart people for advice. When ever my mom asks for help, i tell her, i'm the one who knows what he's doing, not you, don't question me, just do what i tell you to. if stupid people would just realize they were stupid, and consult a smart person for advice, before they went and did something stupid and got pregnant/got someone pregant, this ****hole of a world would be a lot better. - adam corola

Honda makes great performance cars - any scarcastic comedian

 

A 502 will fit anywhere a 454 will. Why would a hopped up Iron Duke be riced out? It's an american engine.

 

because its a 4cyl
-Tas

 

I know there's a good reason for this, seeing as I've NEVER heard somebody do this, but... Why can't you have a 305 bored to the size of a 350? Not that I care about my car's numbers matching, but it would be nice to keep the same block.

------------------
No guts, no glory.

 

you can't bore a 305 to a 350 and have it reliable. There is less material aroudn the 305 bore so if you bore it out you might hit a water jacket. I've heard some circle track racers do bore out 305s to 350s so the thin walls cool from water easier or someting but they have a short life and crack easy. I'm sure they find 305s for free all the time too.
-Tas

[This message has been edited by Tas (edited August 07, 2001).]

 

I don't think so, unless all that was done was nos, a muffler, a wing, and a bunch of stickers. I don't think you can call it "riced out" just because it was a 4 cylinder, but you could just call it slow.

 

ya I was kidding, but if they make the 4cyl farty sounding, its riced out

 

I think I know what you mean by the farting sound. I don't like to hear the ones that sound like buzzsaws either, but I wouldn't mind my cavalier sounding like a bumble bee sometimes, better than what it sounds like now, after I gutted the cat it reminds me of my friends old Subaru.

[This message has been edited by Keith5 (edited August 07, 2001).]