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dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

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Old Dec 12, 2007 | 02:25 PM
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dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

well its been a long debate on FSC, and i think you guys will have better input of the system. we know that the pcv system consists of 1 pcv valve and a breather tube in the opposite cover diverted to the throttle body. some get rid of that tube for a push-in breather.

now as we were discussing, as Fast355 on here said, he has ran the dual pcv setup for the longest, with very good results... such as better ring seal, and cleaner oil changes. I belive Oldred95 has his dual setup as well... both of them dont use a breather...

well i attempted mines, but it created some sort of fight or struggle for fresh air. it almost wanted to vent or get air from the manifold gasket... i noticed with 1 pcv unplugged, the engine would run tons better, as it was able to get sufficent clean air into the system.

i further experimented, by leaving the dual pcv hooked up, and adding a breather to 1 of the covers.. now the engine loves that setup.. but i was wanting to know if its okay like this..

this is how it was, when it basically almost fought it self, and sounded like a air compressor... pissssssshhhhhh


now with the breather added to 1 cover, its as smooth as silk.


^^^^^^^^^^is that a VAC leak^^^^^^^ ?? it sure doesnt sound like a vaccum leak, and the engine idles at 600 or so, and starts right up. it seems like i need a breather atleast on my setup. I still want to use the both pcvs for better ring seal.

i was even told 2 pcvs in 1 cover will be better than a pcv in each... will 2 pcv valves in the same cover, promote better or more vaccum than 1? However Fast355 setup has a pcv in each cover and no breather..
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Old Dec 12, 2007 | 04:19 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

With a breather and valve in one side you've defeated most of the purpose of the PCV system.
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Old Dec 12, 2007 | 05:58 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

2 pcv's in the same valve cover, with the breather in the other, causes air motion in the crankcase that pulls towards the pcv's. using a second pcv to begin with lets the engine properly "reclaim" more of the unburned hydrocarbons that get passed the rings. it is a volume thing. a 383 or even a hot 350 will have a bigger pulse in the crankcase per cylinder firing than normal and that is why the engine responds in a positive manner when a second one is installed.
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Old Dec 12, 2007 | 06:06 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by rocko350
2 pcv's in the same valve cover, with the breather in the other, causes air motion in the crankcase that pulls towards the pcv's. using a second pcv to begin with lets the engine properly "reclaim" more of the unburned hydrocarbons that get passed the rings. it is a volume thing. a 383 or even a hot 350 will have a bigger pulse in the crankcase per cylinder firing than normal and that is why the engine responds in a positive manner when a second one is installed.
okay got it, i knew i could get the answer on TGO.. so 2 pcvs in the same cover, and 1 breather in the other...
do you think i can run 1 pcv unbaffled in the cover with 2 holes? they are tall valve covers... if that means anything.. the breather did well without the baffle..
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Old Dec 12, 2007 | 06:10 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

I routinely run two PCVs in my Buick and Olds engines as well. I NEVER run a PCV and a breather in the same valve cover. It does negate the PCV that is in that valve cover. Two in one cover is better with the Breather on the other side.

I replace the fill cap with a twist on breather. Then, depending on the engine, it goes like this: Olds engines get one in each valve cover since the filler cap is in the front timing cover section. Buick gets one in the valve cover opposite the filler cap breather and one in the intake at the rear like factory. Chevy gets two in the side opposite the filler cap breather.

I hope this helps. You don't have to replace the filler cap with a breather. You can use your original hose that goes to the air filter if you want to, it's just that the crappy little replacement filter isn't very good. I like to block the tube and replace the filler cap.

Without the baffle under the PCV you may use a little oil. The baffle should be gone under your breather filter for max air flow INTO your valve cover.
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Old Dec 12, 2007 | 07:16 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by KrisW
I routinely run two PCVs in my Buick and Olds engines as well. I NEVER run a PCV and a breather in the same valve cover. It does negate the PCV that is in that valve cover. Two in one cover is better with the Breather on the other side.

I replace the fill cap with a twist on breather. Then, depending on the engine, it goes like this: Olds engines get one in each valve cover since the filler cap is in the front timing cover section. Buick gets one in the valve cover opposite the filler cap breather and one in the intake at the rear like factory. Chevy gets two in the side opposite the filler cap breather.

I hope this helps. You don't have to replace the filler cap with a breather. You can use your original hose that goes to the air filter if you want to, it's just that the crappy little replacement filter isn't very good. I like to block the tube and replace the filler cap.

Without the baffle under the PCV you may use a little oil. The baffle should be gone under your breather filter for max air flow INTO your valve cover.
Chevy gets 2 in side opposite from the filler cap.. great info! cause that will be my passenger side.... my filler cap is on driver, and thats where the intake tube was to the tb.. but ill use a breather for that.

im making note of what you say, so i need to loose the baffle behind the breather, and some how put 2 into the 1 passenger cover..

i hope they are interchangeable..
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Old Dec 12, 2007 | 09:53 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

It's not that it is absolutely required to have the baffling that way; it's just the best way in my experience.

I find that no baffle on any PCV allows a little oil to burn and allows the valve to clog faster due to liquid getting in the valve. It will work fine either way.
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Old Dec 12, 2007 | 10:16 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

so wait why do this? it keeps contaminants out the oil better and gives a greater ring seal? it can't be worth all that work for slightly cleaner oil can it?
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Old Dec 12, 2007 | 11:44 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Can't be worth what work? It takes all of about 5 minutes to install a working PCV system, and in return you don't get acids and sludge forming in your oil shortening the life of your engine.
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Old Dec 12, 2007 | 11:58 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

i have center bolt heads. How do you suggest i get another hole in there for another PCV? I was talking about the dual PCV.
I thought I would need another hole, AKA drilling a hole (removing the valve cover) and getting a grommet, then getting new gaskets and bolting it all back on.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 12:00 AM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

i went to dual pcv and no breather about a month ago, since then most of the problems i was having are completely gone, and my car runs better than it ever has.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 12:02 AM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

ok i see how this can work out real well but a ????? how to do this with stock valve covers, i got center bolt valve covers, left side has a screw in oil cap and a PCV, and the right has a open breather like the open breather in Tbi-MAX 's bottom photo....... also wouldnt this put some more "crud" into the intake, causing you to have to use a product like sea-foam sucked through a vac line or intake cleaner more often than would be needed with single PCV and an open oil breather, because i have seen some intakes on some cars crusted with nasty back "crud" in the runners and PCV port..... but even if thats true i would think the benfits would out weigh having to use an intake cleaner more often
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 12:07 AM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

I still don't see what is wrong with the OEM system. I don't have any problems. Oil is clean. Which problems are you talking about?
----------
also if you don't any type of breather with PCV then that was the problem. Open the GM shop manual and look at the diagram for how the system works from the factory. It needs at least one breather. Where else would it get the air? Maybe i'm thinking of something else but I don't see the advantage of this yet.

Last edited by ryan91rs; Dec 13, 2007 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 05:02 AM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by ryan91rs
I still don't see what is wrong with the OEM system. I don't have any problems. Oil is clean. Which problems are you talking about?
----------
also if you don't any type of breather with PCV then that was the problem. Open the GM shop manual and look at the diagram for how the system works from the factory. It needs at least one breather. Where else would it get the air? Maybe i'm thinking of something else but I don't see the advantage of this yet.

why wouldn't you want cleaner oil changes? why wouldn't you want longer engine life and better ring seal? it was said that before the pcv usage the gm old engines would last less than 100k miles.. 2 pcvs just makes a better pcv system, for cheap!


you are correct about the breather... its VITAL.. you must have a breather! take a listen to this vortec L31 1996 truck, with dual pcv, and no breathers... listen to the knocking... (mine didnt knock but wanted to vent from the intake manifold)


this build up crud you talk about is from egr valve system... and this is on a vortec! but the pcv blowby is not as nasty as the egr gasses..
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the guy cant run a dual pcv without a breather.... its more noticeable / audiable on the vortecs... nobody knows what that noise was... but this 1 guy is close i believe..

Do you think it might be the engine trying to suck air from the exhaust during overlap? Then maybe the piston skirts slapping in the cylinder? Or the pressure may be enough to defeat the valvesprings?
Where does the sound seem like it's coming from?
well further more a catch-can be used to catch blowby in the pcv system, for even cleaner intake!


now this is Fast355 setup on the TPI..
Originally Posted by Fast355
In this picture you can clearly see BOTH PCV valves. One in the rear of the left valve cover and one in the front of the right valve cover. Both are connected to 3/8" manifold vacuum fittings on the TPI intake (Left) and TPI Throttle Body (Right) Crankcase vacuum varies between 4-8 in/hg (measured at the dipstick tube)


Originally Posted by Fast355
I haven't run a breather in 30K+ miles, I don't plan to start either. Just two PCV valves.

You can put a pump in a vacuum bell, pull it down to 30 in/hg of vacuum, and it will STILL pump fluid. It is positive displacement. You are talking less than 10 in/hg of vacuum in the crankcase. Your in and out are at the same pressure or in this case vacuum. The pump is pushing the oil, it does NOT rely on air. Why do you think an oil pump is primed with Vasoline when an engine is assembled.

BTW, my oil stays cleaner now than it ever did with the single PCV/Breather setup. On the old 350, I was changing my filter every 5K and the oil every 10K (Mobil One Synthetic).

IT WILL NOT RESTRICT THE PUMP IN ANY WAY OR SHAPE, PERIOD. I have run up to 20 in/hg of crankcase vacuum in a 350. The INDICATED oil pressure on the gauge drops, but it is still at the same ABSOLUTE pressure. IF a pump could not move a liquid from a vacuum, POWER PLANTS WOULD CEASE TO FUNCTION. CONDENSORS are under around 20-30 in/hg of vacuum. Boiler feedwater pumps are able to pull water out of the condensors at a power plant, EASILY and force it into a boiler. We are not talking about a centrifical pump. We are talking POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT. It will move PLENTY of oil.

I see no problem with the dual PCV setup and even recomeend it.
now here is more video of the vortec poping with the breather plug, notice as he took it off, it stoped


anyone know what will cause that?
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 12:19 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

heres a pictures of my setup with 2 pcvs and no breathers.
my car seems to run amazing like this, no problems whatsoever.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 12:24 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by tak0064
heres a pictures of my setup with 2 pcvs and no breathers.
my car seems to run amazing like this, no problems whatsoever.

wow, well thats how my 1st setup was... then it started to vent from the intake manifold almost!!! what in the world.. that is what im trying to figure out... Oldred95 has the same engine L05 block and said his was T like that too.. with a pcv in each cover..

i cant seem to get mine to do that, without a breather.. cause it literrally wants to blow the manifold off.. i even felt it vent from the middle a lil bit. so i know i got to re-torque my intake soon.. but the intake is tight.. thats just how much pressure it had built up...

im going to be doing the dual pcv in the same valve cover and breather on opposite side for this very reason...

what side was your stock pcv located on?
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 12:42 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

whats wrong with dual breathers and no pcv?
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 01:52 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

I run two valves T'd together and hooked to the single 3/8 vacuum port at the base of the throttle body and it works fine. I didn't notice any oil pressure drop and I have no breather unless my oil fill cap isn't sealing perfectly which it may very well be. I have yet to check the manifold vacuum to see just how good its working though. I didn't have any idle issues or anything.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 03:07 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by TraviZ
whats wrong with dual breathers and no pcv?
Blowby gasses will still linger in the crankcase with little incentive to leave, but when they do they'll make an oil mess.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 05:00 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by Tbi-MAX
i cant seem to get mine to do that, without a breather.. cause it literrally wants to blow the manifold off.. i even felt it vent from the middle a lil bit. so i know i got to re-torque my intake soon.. but the intake is tight.. thats just how much pressure it had built up...
Shouldn't be pressure, there should only be vacuum if you have two pcv valves and no breather. That would be ideal actually. Pressure is the enemy in the crankcase, so something sounds very wrong in your case.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 06:16 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

as far as i knew a pcv and no breather is a big no no as it would want to "suck" a gasket it, but i agreee that you put 2 on one side and a breather on the other, that just makes sence, as if you had a breather and pcv in the same cover it wouldnt circulate throgh the motor, that PCV has to get air from somewhere..... but look at this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve

it explains it pretty well for people who are wondering
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 07:19 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

my original pcv was on the driver side valve cover, and a breather tube on the passenger side went to the air cleaner.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 07:23 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

I can see how the gases could have a tendency to hang in the crank case and not all get sucked up by the PCV valves in a dual non breather type setup but you also have to remember that there is always a contiunous flow of new gases into the crankcase as long as the engine is running. The only thing I could see wrong is the potential for gases to stay in the crankcase more then if the crankcase also had a vent but the advantages of having the crankcase under vacuum IMO offset the disadvantage of less scavenging of the gases providing you don't have much blow by to begin with and you run good oil.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 07:48 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

The problem with running no breather is that the air in the crankcase has to come from somewhere... if you only had a vacuum in there, you will suck a seal from somewhere and then unfiltered air enters. Or the air needed is coming from excessive blowby, which is why you are trying to run two PCVs in the first place.

To sum it up; the air comes from SOMEWHERE. If you don't run a breather you are either running unfiltered air from a sucked seal somewhere (like an intake gasket or oil pan/valve cover gasket) or you are helping the rings lose their seal and admit positive pressure from combustion. If you suck a seal you won't ever see a leak because the pressure is coming in instead of leaving. THE AIR IS COMING FROM SOMEWHERE!!!
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 07:58 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

This is very interesting to me, so now, Do I run a dual pcv (one in each valve cover) or dual pcv(same valve cover) and a breather(opposite valve cover)? would doing both, and getting a vacuum reading at the dipstick tube be a good indicator which one is better, or is there more to it?


nevermind, KrisW posted just as I did, I like his post, answers my question. I am going to run a breather one side and two pcv's on the other valve cover. Is there anything different to be considered in a blower application like mine?
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 08:05 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

subscribe
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 09:26 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

You're not going to "suck a seal" running the crankcase under vacuum. There are no gaskets on the engine that can't handle a measly few inches of vacuum. Even if you did somehow have a leak, it would be so small that it would effectively filter the incoming air.

Vacuum isn't going to hurt the seal of the rings, either. Some racing engines are built with the crankcase under vacuum to improve ring sealing and increase power by a miniscule amount, although some engine builders say you'd get better gains from choosing the right rings to begin with instead of using a band-aid solution like a vacuum pump.

I'm not sure what the point of running two valves on one side is supposed to be. Unless you've got excessive blowby, a single valve should be more than enough. Another thing to consider is that the PCV system is providing a healthy portion of the intake air flow at idle, and the valve contains a metered orifice to limit this amount. Two valves will double the amount of metered air.

Last edited by Apeiron; Dec 13, 2007 at 09:29 PM.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 09:41 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

I have built one of those racing engines with vacuum... It was a 455 Olds jet boat engine. I STILL RAN A BREATHER. I put a twist in breather in the oil fill tube and then ran two of those Moroso style exhaust check valves between the valve covers and the header collector. You have to put a slash cut tube in there like a venturi in a carb to get the vacuum effect. If you take the breather off and put your hand on the oil fill tube you think you're gonna lose your hand it sucks so hard.

It wasn't that strong, but it was certainly something you could feel on my car engines when you take the breather out and put your hand over the hole while the engine is running and it increases with throttle.

Maybe it's not enough to pull a seal on a new engine (I bet that has to do with some of the breatherless PCV cars having problems above) but it will certainly allow your "seal filtered" air to come in on older or less well sealed engines.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 10:00 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Using an exhaust evac system is one way it's done. Some racing applications use an engine-driven pump to make real vacuum in the crankcase.
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 10:12 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Well, on the subject of burning too much oil I have run across oil catch can DIY used by rice burners. Take a look:

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/view...499bec7cbbb8f1
It is easy to make and keeps oil out of the intake for the most part.

http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum...4&d=1095129593

//RF
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Old Dec 13, 2007 | 10:20 PM
  #31  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Baffles in the valve covers or grommets do an adequate job of keeping oil from getting sucked into the PCV. They don't impede flow through the system either, since they're much larger than the metering orifice in the PCV valve.
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 02:38 AM
  #32  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

quick question, at idle is when the pcv is closed? but as vacuum decreases the pcv opens up to let the vapors in? or am i backwards here.

and with valve covers like below that are sold like this, why do they do that if its bad?


Last edited by TraviZ; Dec 14, 2007 at 02:47 AM.
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 07:14 AM
  #33  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

They're not solid. They have a filter in them and they have holes on the bottom side to allow air flow. You just can't see the holes in that picture.

On Porsche engines they actually pull manifold vacuum on the crankcase through an oil separator. That is their pcv system, no valve. So they are alway in a vacuum and most of their seals hold up fine. I say most because they have had a hell of a time with rear main seals, but they seem to have fixed that now too for the most part. They also notch the bottoms of the cylinder bores to allow cross flow from neighboring cylinders. This has netted horsepower gains over the block that did not have this.
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 07:34 AM
  #34  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

The picture above is basically the same engineering that cars/trucks used before the PCV system was used.

It's the great engineering that helped guarantee 100k mile engine rebuilds...

That's why it's not used for most people's daily drivers.
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 11:35 AM
  #35  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by DLV555
Shouldn't be pressure, there should only be vacuum if you have two pcv valves and no breather. That would be ideal actually. Pressure is the enemy in the crankcase, so something sounds very wrong in your case.

well maybe i didnt use my terms correctly.. i was just trying to describe, how the engine appeared to run rougher, with a pcv in each cover, and no breather... something wasnt right... sort of like that vortec video i posted above..

on my vortec carb manifold, the bolts are to the edges not the center of the manifold like a TBI manifold.... to the center is where i could hear the noise and feel some air... when i unplugged either pcv, all symptoms went... and the engine was quite again, and smoothen..

i know i have to replace my intake manifold gasket, and screw down bolts.. as they are the wrong bolts as well.. ill be sure to TQ it down this time. but the intake has been off 3 separate times, just to fix a leaky gasket on the china wall to the back.. which i finally fixed RTV sealant had to cure 1st, then bolt the manifold...
----------
Originally Posted by Apeiron
Baffles in the valve covers or grommets do an adequate job of keeping oil from getting sucked into the PCV. They don't impede flow through the system either, since they're much larger than the metering orifice in the PCV valve.
that is what i was thinking! but i noticed this... when i put the breather in the other cover with a baffle on the breather, the breather was less violent, as far as the mist of air around it, VS no baffle at all... so maybe the baffle does effect the breather..

this was with 2 pcvs in the passenger cover, and 1 breather in driver cover..

Last edited by Tbi-MAX; Dec 14, 2007 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 11:42 AM
  #36  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by 89RS_82Z
as far as i knew a pcv and no breather is a big no no as it would want to "suck" a gasket it, but i agreee that you put 2 on one side and a breather on the other, that just makes sence, as if you had a breather and pcv in the same cover it wouldnt circulate throgh the motor, that PCV has to get air from somewhere..... but look at this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve

it explains it pretty well for people who are wondering

my point exactly, which is why i was trying to figure out Fast355 & Oldred95 systems... cause the pcv diagram even shows it needs a breather!... i will post the link, but its a circular motion the pcv system opperates in... and thats why its best to have both pcvs in the same cover OR same area of the circle sort to speak... the vacuum goes in a circle the way the system works.. putting a pcv in opposite covers will slow the motion of your circle. however it must still have atleast 1 point in that circle to draw fresh air!
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 11:48 AM
  #37  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by TraviZ
quick question, at idle is when the pcv is closed? but as vacuum decreases the pcv opens up to let the vapors in? or am i backwards here.
No, at idle the valve is open. It closes to prevent pressure from the manifold from blowing back into the crankcase.
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 11:59 AM
  #38  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

alright, here is a nice Moroso catch-can to capture all the dirty smells blowby... i heard that stuff stinks.. so better to catch it before you let it back into the intake manifold..




also summit has the EVAP systems
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

now... this is quoted from a Ford forum...

You can't use one in each valve cover because gasses aren't traveling the same direction through each. The vacuum tube at the base of the carb should have the PCV valve on it. The larger hose which connects to the opposite valve cover and the base of the air cleaner is the fresh air supply to the crank case.

People think PCV is some mysterious system, it's really not. The carb vacuum draws fumes from blow-by out of the crank-case, up through the oil drain-back passages. Fresh air replaces those fumes, and it comes from the air cleaner or a filtered breather if you just have one on the valve cover.

So DO NOT use a PCV filter in both valve covers. It's just a check valve. The one on the fresh air side will suck shut and create a less-than-desireable vacuum situation in your crankcase.
You can't use two PCV valves. The one downstream of manifold vacuum will work as normal but you'll suck the one on the breather-end shut and you won't get any circulation, and you're going to create negative pressure in your crankcase with no natural path for fresh air to come in. go_racing84 is right on the money. You definitely need one though. But NOT two. Draw an engine out on paper with arrows and you'll see it just doesn't work.
now here is from FSC

Originally Posted by Cheyenne'88
I remember seeing a diagram of the system when the PCV valves first showed up back in the 60's, in my '67 Riviera's shop manual.
The diagram showed the system of removing the blow-by gasses and replacing them with fresh air, basically good air into the breather side, and bad air up and out (of the crankcase) through the pcv side. Basically a clockwise "circle" through the engine (when looking at the front of the engine).
The breather pulls fresh air from above the throttle body, replacing air sucked out by the pcv valve, because the pcv valve vents to the low side of the TB, where the vacuum is stronger, pulling the gasses into the intake charge.
The "circle" keeps the good air in and the bad air out, to keep the acids from contaminating the oil. This "circle" is one-directional, (positive) and equalizes crankcase pressure (not oil pressure) by way of the spring inside the valve.
It occurs to me that, if you put a PCV valve on both sides, you've defeated the circle, and the flow of air. This would seem to FORCE the crankcase to draw air from a less desirable source (like past the rings?), as the valve only flows one way easily. That's the reason you get oil up and out the breather tube when your PCV valve goes bad.


yes its called Positive Crank VENTILLATION... so it has to vent from a breather or get FRESH AIR!
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 12:18 PM
  #39  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

aiight here is some more good reads...

PCV stands for Positive Crankcase Ventilation. Vent the crankcase? That’s right, you NEED to vent the pressure in the crankcase when an engine is running. Without venting off the excess pressure the engine's main seals will certainly blow out, and you’ll drop 5 quarts of your hard earned oil on the road.

The pressure comes from the firing pistons. The piston rings in an engine (even a fresh engine) leak some, by nature. When the fuel charge explodes in the piston, some of the gasses blow around the ring, before it has a chance to seal. This is called “blow by” by most of the mechanical world. As the pressure builds, the PCV system evacuates the pressure to save the engine’s seals. To answer Bills question, no. Gapless piston rings will not allow you to scrap your PCV system (why he’d want to do that is beyond me).

The PCV valve is just a small ball check style valve designed to keep outside air from entering the crankcase when there is no pressure in it (when the engine is off). You’ll usually find the valve attached to the top of one of the engine's valve covers with a hose leading to the intake plenum or carburetor, if so equipped. The valve is typically made of grade-101 black nylon, as is formed into a right-angle elbow.

You should periodically change the valve, since it’s doing a vital function. If air (especially unfiltered air) were allowed to get to your oil, it would contaminate it. Air carries a lot of dirt with it. Last I checked, you don’t want dirty oil. But just as important as that, air carries something else; water. Not only does oil and water not mix; neither does water and iron. You don’t want to subject your iron block and internal steel parts to water do you? No. Periodic changes will ensure your PCV valve is working well, and sealing out the elements.

Derrick later asked why is it called “positive”. Well Derrick, it wasn’t always. Back in the day, the crankcase used to be just vented into the atmosphere by a small tube that hung near the bottom of the car. As the air rushed by the tube, from the car moving, it created a vacuum; and helped suck the pressure out of the engine. Well, tree huggers didn’t dig the gasses being vented raw like that, and engineers decided that it didn’t help anything when the car was stopped. So they came up with the Positive Crankcase Ventilation system.

Engineers figured that if you can use the vacuum generated by sucking air into the engine to pull out the pressure, you’d kill both birds with one stone. You’d create vacuum all the time, and burn the gasses in the combustion chamber to stop the flower-kissing fairies complaints. Because the system actively pulled the pressure from the crank, it was called the Positive type system, as apposed to the Atmospheric (ACV) system.

For you race fans out there, there are a few different breeds of PCV systems available. There’s the “Pan-Evac” system, and there’s the “Vacuum Pump” system. Both accomplish the same thing as the PCV system, with some substantial gains.

The “Pan-Evac” system is short for pan evacuation. The pan implying the oil pan, which sort of implies the crankcase. Don’t ask me; I didn’t name it. The Pan-Evac system uses tubes welded into the exhaust header collectors at a typical 15º angle. As the exhaust passes around the tube it creates a high amount of vacuum, pulling the crankcase gasses out, and blowing them out the exhaust. The EPA would obviously be all over this if it were a road vehicle. But it’s assumed that if you’re doing this it’s a race only vehicle. This is NOT at all recommended if you’re running mufflers of any kind. Again not something you’d necessary do if it were a race only vehicle. The oily gasses will put a residue on everything in the exhaust stream. A muffler full of oil residue is a fire waiting to happen. Not good.

The “Vacuum Pump” style system uses a belt driven pump to increase the intake manifolds vacuum. The PCV system can be merged into the pump to create a high level of vacuum on the system.

Both of these systems actually make horsepower. That’s right. Crankcase pressure eats up horsepower. How you may ask? Simple. Imagine your engine is a syringe. Imaging pulling the syringe up and down; sucking in air and blowing it out. Now apply some pressure under the plunger by plugging the needle. Takes a lot more power to press it down huh? Well that’s what happens in an engine. The pressure built up in the crankcase (directly under all of the moving pistons) will apply force on the pistons, making it harder for them to move.

It also builds power in another aspect. If there is a high amount vacuum placed on the crankcase, the piston rings will be sucked up tighter to the cylinder walls. This will then create a better seal, and reduce blow by. The less gas that escapes around the piston rings, the more power the piston will make.

what i did on my setup now, is put 2 pcvs on the passenger side cover, and i put 1 breather on the driver side cover... the engine runs lots smoother now, i can notice the difference! well its at the dyno, so i cant take any pics...
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 01:35 PM
  #40  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Ok so now, how do you know what is the proper pcv valve to use, that there is a whole isle dedicated to them in most auto parts stores. with an modded engine, is a stock one for tpi still ok?
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 01:50 PM
  #41  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

A stock one should be fine.
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 01:59 PM
  #42  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

i was just thinking because i dont pull as much vacuum at idle as stock, perhaps i needed to find a pcv valve has an even lighter spring, otherwise the valve would partially closed at idle when it should be wide open. Or is this why people put two valves in one cover? that would make up for it.
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 04:07 PM
  #43  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

There's no spring in a stock PCV, gravity closes the pintle. If you have practically any idle vacuum at all, it'll be open.
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 05:07 PM
  #44  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

so its the pcv valve thats the limiting factor on the amount of air sucked into the vac line?
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 05:49 PM
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by mgrotel
so its the pcv valve thats the limiting factor on the amount of air sucked into the vac line?
welcome to TGO mgrotel... i see you found your way... lol

the limiting factor i think, would be the breather, and how much fresh air it can let in...


as the more the pcv works, the more fresh air it needs to replace the dirty air... this is what i gather...

any bit of vacuum will open the pcv.. you can prob do that with your mouth sucking. so i wouldn't say the vacuum will limit it...
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 05:56 PM
  #46  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by mgrotel
so its the pcv valve thats the limiting factor on the amount of air sucked into the vac line?
Right, the metering orifice in the PCV valve is what keeps the system from being a 3/8" vacuum leak.
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 07:05 PM
  #47  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

so having 2pcv valves hooked up to a "T" to a vac line will double the amount of air going in? i was under the impression that the vac line could get all it wanted with 1 pcv valve, so having 2 pcv valves wouldnt allow any addtional air in
----------
Originally Posted by Tbi-MAX
welcome to TGO mgrotel... i see you found your way... lol

the limiting factor i think, would be the breather, and how much fresh air it can let in...


as the more the pcv works, the more fresh air it needs to replace the dirty air... this is what i gather...

any bit of vacuum will open the pcv.. you can prob do that with your mouth sucking. so i wouldn't say the vacuum will limit it...
thanks for the welcome!

Last edited by mgrotel; Dec 14, 2007 at 07:06 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 08:16 PM
  #48  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

When I run two PCVs I use two separate lines and two separate manifold hookups. Sometimes front and back of carb (if it has a provision) and sometimes drill and tap for a fitting right into the intake.
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Old Dec 14, 2007 | 10:05 PM
  #49  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by KrisW
When I run two PCVs I use two separate lines and two separate manifold hookups. Sometimes front and back of carb (if it has a provision) and sometimes drill and tap for a fitting right into the intake.

that is what i was wondering too... i figure it would share the source vacuum.. but 2 lines should provide better vacuum power to the pcvs. i will have to re-work mine to use 2 separate vacs instead of a T..

Originally Posted by mgrotel
so having 2pcv valves hooked up to a "T" to a vac line will double the amount of air going in? i was under the impression that the vac line could get all it wanted with 1 pcv valve, so having 2 pcv valves wouldnt allow any addtional air in
yea, they will share the vacuum just like KrisW said... we were discussing that very question on FSC... when i said thats the only thing i notice different about Fast355 setup..

see the thing is on my throttle body, the pcv vac is pretty big.. but i have smaller other vacs, KrisW is that okay, to hook 1 to a bigger vac, and the other to a smaller vac line? Or just use my T?
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Old Dec 15, 2007 | 10:11 AM
  #50  
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Re: dual pcv VS single pcv questions & routing

Originally Posted by tak0064
i went to dual pcv and no breather about a month ago, since then most of the problems i was having are completely gone, and my car runs better than it ever has.




Seems to me, if you don't have a source for fresh air, you will never have fresh air in your crankcase. Its not going to come in from your valve guides and rings. That's where the blowby comes from. So, without a fresh air source, there will be no crankcase ventilation, ever. Unless you consider replacing blowby gases with fresh blowby gases to be the same as ventilation. Seems to me.

Last edited by chesterfield; Dec 15, 2007 at 10:18 AM.
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