91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

So, here are the requirements-
Broad power band- streetcar, not a 1/4 miler
Less than $1200- I'm not a mint haha
Aluminum- wanna save some nose weight
Looking at a cam in the 210s- 220s ~.500 lift, 110-112 LSA

I have a few in mind, but I wanted some more opinions.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

trick flow seem to be popular, they offer different port sizes for different needs.

I have heard a few good things about coiler heads, if i remember. thier is a thread in aftermarket product review board.

I think AFR heads are over your budget. But many good things have been said about thsoe also.

Doom86

To be certain you should at least say what size the motor is. The more details the better.

Contrary to popular belief there isn't one "fix all" head out there.

DSGx

I know u want aluminum but if u dont want a 1/4 mile car or to race the car on anything then i dont see the point in aluminum heads, by looking at your sig i can see that u have a 350 with TPI, in my opinion best bang for buck are vortec heads, u wont get a better overall flowing head out of the box that cheap than vortecs, they have cons ofc that that is that they need a vortec specific intake and also will need to be modded for more lift, but with a 1200 budget i think u got some nice options.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Clearly more information is needed.

I've been pushing Profilers. For $1000 they are a good option.

Without more information, it's hard to say.

If this is just a stock motor, and your goals are modest 350-375HP why do you even think you need heads anyway? Put that money in to an intake and a full exhaust, get a real tune and you'll be better off. That's a fairly mild cam, I'm not so sure you even need heads.

Being it's a 91 isn't that an aluminum head from the factory? Centerbolt valve covers right? I'm not sure what came on those cars...

I agree with the above, however, the Vortecs are probably a serious consideration.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

thats the name of them profilers!

Doom86

No Fbody got alum from the factory like the vette L98 did. The fbody version got iron "083" heads.

They are center bolts with 64cc chambers and 165cc runners. Decent heads for their time, they flow 190ish stock and have been documented on TGO being worked up to 270cfm. IIRC GM put them on a 300/325hp crate motor too.

What confused me is his name has 91 5.7, his info says 91 L03 (305), and he wants a LS1. Gotta clear that one up!

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

well he has been a member for awhile so I think maybe he had a tpi car and got rid of it and now has a tbi car

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Haha, sorry for the lack of info and the misleading screen name. The current engine is a L03, when I signed up I was looking at a 91 GTA...didn't work out. I want to go LS1 eventually, but I plan to build a house, so I'm gonna go with a TBI 350 for the time being with the EBL board for tuning purposes (the L03 has 223,000 miles on it, so...).

I have a 5.7 shortblock from a 95 C3500, which is why I need heads. I'm not putting my L03 boat anchors on there haha. I want the aluminum to try to get some weight off the front of the car. I love corner carving and I'm always looking for ways to reduce nose weight
As I said, I want a broad power band. I'll likely go with a T56 and 3.42s or 3.73s.

Doom86

I like the idea here and you made the head choice easy. For what you are spending and the results you want it is going to be hard to beat Profiler 195's.

If anyone knows of a better head for a grand please let me know.

They are made not far from where I live and cast using a unique technology used in aerospace casting which leaves the ports clean.

Doom86

I know people like to talk flow and they do that too.

Typical flow curve 195cc 2.05/1.600

(Flowed with REV CL Series Valve, exhaust NO PIPE)
Lift/Inch Press INT EXH
0.200 28 145 101
0.300 28 205 144
0.400 28 255 175
0.500 28 278 194
0.600 28 281 205
0.700 28 282 213
0.800 28 283 219

I'm not cam guru but go bigger. What you mentioned before was very tame and won't yield a broad power band. With your drive-train plans I would personally go much more aggressive.

stealthroc89

Dam, thats pretty good for the price! Are these aluminum? Vortecs are nice too, a good set is about $200 + the $265 spring/retainer kit to allow more lift. They would make for a good street engine, but don't come close to the numbers of the profilers, which have bigger ports to be fair. You may stay within budget with the vortecs, but the profilers allow more room to upgrade later, if you decide to do so.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

All good points. Depends on his ultimate goals.

Yes, they are aluminum. Nice people to work with.

thomas1976

Will also have to inquire how srict, the emission standards are applied in your region, before shopping.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

We has none emissions standards lol.

I want to see what mileage I can get from a tame cam before moving up. I daily drive the car, and would like mileage in the mid 20s. I'll look into those heads, thanks for the heads up!

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

Found this:
Profiler 64cc/ 195cc/ 2.02/1.60 Valves Heads
350 4 Bolt, 1pc .030 over
Scat 9000 Rotating assembly 10.1:1 Compression
HYD Roller Cam 220/224 @ 50 528/536 Lift
Aluminum 1.5 Rocker
Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake
Holley Street Avenger 770CFM
HP = 404 @5600RPM
TQ = 438 @4000RPM

These specs are close to my idea, with a little more lift, which wouldn't be a problem. Was thinking about that same intake, but with the TBI adapter plate and Ultimate TBI 454 unit.

thomas1976

If emmission standards are not applied, I would like to try out a single plain intake like http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WND-7547-1/?rtype=10 on that engine.

Where did you find the hp/tq #? They could be on the low side with a proper intake.

Doom86

Personally I would get the 2.05 intake valves and more RPM. Still have loads of torque down low and pick up more hp. Just feels like your leaving out free HP, but enjoy your self either way.

This idea is great though and I may be doing much the same this summer. My 91RS TBI vert is completely stock under the hood and I'm considering a build much like this.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Yeah those look like good flow numbers. thats a grand for completely assembled heads?

stealthroc89

I'm happy with my modest set-up. The regrets of not going bigger get to me sometimes lol. Max power wasn't in mind, just wanted a nice street car and thats what I got. I agree with Thomas1976, a single plain intake would be a better choice with that combo.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

If I was going to stick with TBI (i'm build a 383 single plane efi LT1 as well speak) I would go with the E-Tec 170's in a heartbeat. a very good cylinder head indeed. But...if you're just upgrading the 305 try to find a cheap set of ZZ4's on ebay. (yeah i'm biased) They're aluminum, can be ported very easily and go real well with the 305.

91_5.7_TPI

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to a 350 (or 355, if it needs to be bored over).
I'm a little foggy as to the differences between the single and dual plan intakes...can someone refresh my memory?

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Then I would go with the E-Tec 170's. Single planes are better for higher RPM operation as to the Dual plane "split" the engine in two so to speak. Geared more towards low to mid RPM power.

Doom86

Why would he want to buy more expensive heads that would make his car slower?

There is a short version of the VicJr single plane that's a touch shorter then the performer RPM. It looks like a nice choice for a TBI build.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

The E-tec's are FAR better than the stock swirlies. That's what I'm getting at. From the research I myself have done I do have to agree that the single plane is the better way to go in this situation. TBI doesn't suffer from the same losses carb's do when switching to that intake.

Doom86

That is true they are better then the swirl ports. They are not cheap though, last I saw well over $500 each and they are just vortec heads with better exhaust ports. More suited for towing a sports car around and not powering one IMO.

If what you want is some warmed up vortecs EQ seems to have the best deal around.

alvanwie

This looks like a nicely matched setup. However you are looking at premium fuel and no where near 20mpg. With peak torque at 4000rpm you would also need a high stall or a manual transmission. Definitely streetable but not what you described you are looking for. If you really want a quick street daily driver with good mileage I would go with less cam and bring down the peak rpm. If you want to run 87 octane you need to lower the compression ratio which would also indicate less cam.

Simply put I like this build but I do not think it is what you are looking for.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

isnt 10:1 with aluminum heads comparable to 9:1 with cast iron heads? and 9:1 is streetable with pump gas. Or are you saying that he can run pump gas but not 87?

Doom86

There is nothing radical about that build at all, I don't understand where your coming from here.

Doesn't sound like he needs or wants a low spinner.

RPM = HP.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

yes

cuisinartvette

Talk to Chad before ordering so he does the valve job and hardware selection. Apparently there was some issue with one or more of his vendors.
Talk to Dr. Js also who has a venture going with him.

A 220 HR and a dual plane would work killer on the street give a nice powerband and still have decent manners.

Dont think a 2.05 valve is necessary on a street 350 but whatever floats your boat.

skinny z

Wouldn't the OP benefit from a smaller port cylinder head (like Vortecs or similar) rather than a 195cc head. It would seem to me that with a smallish cam and the mostly street objective, you would end up with a more drivable package with better low end torque (and mileage).

88 z28

help. please.
416s or 193s ?????
stock bottom end LO5
AND A CS XE 249H-12
THANX GUYS ! tried to start my own post, but not familiar with that.

Doom86

Since we were using that dyno as a "gauge" what makes it even begin to venture into poor street manners? We don't have full details on the cam and the rest of the car that is a LOT of speculation. From what I see you could drive around all day with that thing and with 2.73 rear and stock 1800 stall.

With a T56 and 3.73 rear a lawn care truck power band would down right annoying to drive IMO. That drive-train is more suited for a broad power band shifting just over 6k. A 700r4 with "vette" gov would be good too (autoshift at 6k). Good heads and FI will have no "low end" issues, this is magazine spank that more pertains to over cammed, under headed, carb motors.

Vortec's are awesome for budget builds if you are trying to get heads for $500. But ideally if you are building a 350 motor to peak over 5k and have the funds bigger better heads are out there. 170cc on a 350 is suited for low/mid power. Too big is better then too small when it comes to heads.

Doom86

go to the part of the forum you want to post your thread and at the top or bottom it has a "button" that says "new thread".

416's for sure though and gl.

cuisinartvette

Whn you click on the section you want to be in (TPI TBI ENGINE etc) Look for a new thread icon and click it.

skinny z

That is very much open to debate.
Much like a cam, when it comes to choosing between two that are similar, conventional thinking says choose the smaller of the two.
And how did we go from a street car (as the OP spec'd) to shifting at over 6 grand?
We're talking two different builds.

92firebird 305

hi how r u i have the same motor l03 305 whats one way of get more hp out of it send me a message tell me what your first thing was mines auto 2.73 rearend open crap gears

Doom86

My question is when did 6 grand become radical for the street? There is a laundry list of v8 cars that do this from the factory. Some are even "Classy" cars that demand street manners to sell.

He says; Don't you think it's going to feel like driving a dump truck with all that rear gear, all that torque, and all those gears?

Please don't take my word for it go ask prominent professionals if you are better off with too small or too big heads because I am simply regurgitating what I hear from a namely few. The turbulence created by a port that's too small is much worse then reduced air speed of being over sized.

skinny z

We're talking about a stock Gen 1 SBC with (I would assume) a cast crank and rods. I don't think frequent blasts past 6 grand is well advised.

Doom86

ARP rod bolts are $50. MrGasket#26 oil pump spring is $15 or so. Good bearings are $10 more then stock replacements. The crank should be inspected. If you are building a hot SBC you should be doing these anyway IMO since we aren't building it to cart groceries.

I guess it's not a question of if but how long because I know plenty of us have taken our stock bottom ends there plenty of times. My 305 with questionable mileage (no idea guy was junking it for a 350), worn cylinder walls, gunk under valve pans, pulled it's self to 6k going through the traps.

With the correct parts and balance it wouldn't be any issue shifting under 6.5k. If you have bottom end issues it's going to come apart with spirited driving regardless of when you peak.

alvanwie

Doom86,

The OP did not ask simply about streetability. His request was for a daily driver, 20+mpg, and a broad power band. If you look at my sig. (vortec with 269 cam) this is a really nice combo and a lot of fun to drive, but it does not meet the above requirements.

In general (and I know generalities can be dangerous) large ports and big cams in a sbc make for a very peaky engine (high rpm range, narrow power band, and poor low end torque). All of these thing can be a lot of fun and still very streetable but not what the OP asked about. This also applies to the suggestion of using a single plane intake manifold on a tbi engine. Yes, they can work well with tbi for the right application, however I believe for what was requested here a good dual plane is much more practical and will perform better in temperature variation seen by a daily driver.

For cylinder heads I would look for high flow and high velocity (not large ports) to provide a broad torque curve and yet provide good horsepower at higher rpms. To my way of thinking for the OP torque at say 2500 rpms is much more important than horsepower at 5500 rpm.

Just my .02 worth.

stealthroc89

If thats the cam you want (and still want more lift!?) stay away from Vortecs. Lift on stock port Vortecs should be limited to .520", they stop making power around that range. On a budget, vortecs are great street heads, pair them with a 272ish cam and you have a good daily driver that still has torque, can pull to 6k and maybe get 20mpg. For aluminum heads, those Profilers are going to be hard to beat for the price and with a 280 cam it should still be very streetable, still have torque and still get pretty good gas milage.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

I am also from the same school of thought. Too small is better than too big.

Doom86

I'm being honest with you here, I thought the same way until I talked to someone who was much smarter then me and you on the subject. Do you want to take advice from magazine advertisements or guys who get paid money to make cars win trophies on a pro level? I'm not going to name drop, I find it extremely annoying, just understand this isn't "my idea".

Everything in this quote pertains to carbed motors with poor combos. We got guys towing vans around with single plane wild TBI 305's making great HP over 6k. Add 45 cubes, aftermarket heads, it's going to get "worse"?

Heads like you describe do not yield a broad power band, 5500 is not broad that's stock for most cars and trucks. Broad is what LSx guys get with there big (+200cc stock)port heads, big flat FI power bands with little over lap. This is a great example of what big efficient ports do, more power with milder cams, and extreme power with wilder cams. Broad again is also what the SoCal club guys chained to their TPI have been posting, again 195cc heads with big flat power bands peaking at 6k, and making +400ft/lbs at 3k.

Peak torque at 2500 with 3.73 and a T56 would not be fun to drive, or a good investment IMO. It would feel like a tow truck or some other torque monster with loads of gears. A few gears shy of driving a Peterbilt?

I was reading last night some post on another forum from one of the R&D guys of the profiler line that he ported the 210cc Profiler to flow 300cfm @ .500 lift (well over that maxed). Very decent guy even briefly explains how to do it your self. I know it doesn't pertain to this much but I thought that was awesome. Slap a pair of those on a 383 that would be nasty.

alvanwie

I will just let you have the last word because this has gotten to be a joke.

Have a nice day!!!
Al

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I'll have to respectfully disagree with much of that, unless you can explain why. HP at higher RPMs is what keeps the car going faster.

alvanwie

Agree with you about the HP

However, that is not the objective here if I understand the original request correctly. This is for a daily driver with good gas mpg and a wide power band. Large cams do not produce good mileage. Large cams move the power band to higher rpms, the same thing happens when too high a volume head is used for the application reducing velocity. This also reduces the power band ( generally referred to as the range between peak torque and peak hp).

To my way of thinking for the type of application requested, hp at 6000 rpm is pretty much useless. this engine will spend most of its life under 4000 rpm. So if we build an engine with say peak toque at 4000 rpm and peak hp at 5500 rpm (such as the engine in my signature) it will be a lot of fun to drive but does not meet the requirements requested.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

high rpms and TBI just dont seem to work well...0-5500 is the common range i've seen so 195cc on a 350 doesnt make too much sense, especially a driver that wants 24-26 mpg.

That being said, i'd really recommend a mild cleaned up set of L98 Aluminums or ZZ4 take-offs if you find them for the right price, as new they are over priced.

Reason being, mild port job/valve job will yeild a fresh cylinder head for less money than any new head you can buy save for vortecs.
You have truck block...means dished pistons more than likely and LOW compression. Going to aluminum is gonna kill off some power due to heat lossed thru the aluminum. General rule is 1 point more compression with aluminum over iron heads.
Vette heads cleaned up/decked will come in 54-56cc as they are stock with 58cc chambers. From what I read, the 95 c3500 TBI motor had 191 heads which were 76cc and had around 8 to 8.3 to 1 compression (18cc dish). 64cc head will get you near 8.9-9 to 1. 56cc head will get you near 9.6 to 1...much better for aluminum...thats about what stock L98 vettes were at, maybe a touch less since some of them had flat tops and some had 12cc dishes.

Those L98 heads will support 330whp with mild cleanup and thats about all you will make out of that TBI intake and cams in the 210-220 range anyway.

Thats what I'd try. That will have broad powerband and work well into the 20's mpg well tuned if TBI can do gas mileage

Doom86

I must have missed the memo on that one since the most impressive hp/economy motor I can think of has "huge" heads, bigger then 195cc. With a stock TBI you may not want to spin up there but we don't live in a void, there are other parts out there, and since we're unloading porting on this guy he can touch up his stock TB as well.

To my understanding he is rebuilding the motor or at least having it inspected before assembling it. Given that I would certainly go with flat tops even if it doesn't need boring. You can have the machinist do those while he's doing the ARP rod bolts. Good point here Orr, I would shoot for at least 10.5cr w/ alum heads.

Picking a cam and building a motor around it is silly IMO. Cams and heads have come a long way in the last 5-10 years, people should realize this and stop touting facts based on worked camel humps from the 60's.

Porting ZZ4 heads is a great idea if you got the time to research, and ability to put it into practice. Get a practice head. In the end you will have spent very close to good aftermarket. The 416 heads I just finished up with all the hardware and machine work ended up being $500 and that doesn't include the cost of the heads (mine were free).

Again do whatever you want just have fun with it. But if I were to invest so much money into something I would not want to waste HP with illusionary problems.