WhiteSnake91

I'm working on finishing the full tuneup on the car, just spark plugs and wires left to do now(both good ac delco), the car will start although crank slowly, and does drive although it doesn't have much power at all, couldn't even go up some car ramps and died after a few tries, I'm assuming that's a clogged fuel filter or weak fuel pump from some googling if it dies when going up a hill. Been sick and bad weather lately here so I haven't done much besides read. I had to let the car rest about 15 mins before it would start again....my mom had an 85 firebird carb back in the day and that thing chewed through starters, and reading some online the starter location on these 3rd gen seem to be in a bad spot, the engine apparently makes them get too hot and burn them out, maybe a bad starter is why mine cranks so slow/weak.

I assumed EGR or MAP sensor was a main cause of lack of power and hesitation and slow acceleration but I have no bad codes per se, only code 12 12 12 which is normal then does 53 53 53 then 12 12 12 again. System overvoltage it seems. I can post the link to one site I found online which claims that means a bad EGR or charging system, but from googling some more online they claimed the obd1 firebirds didn't have a bad alternator code... -shrug-

from some more googling code 53 on these thirdgens seems much more like a VATS error....I have a cheap multimeter and tested my key and it read as #15 on a chart I found in another topic here on google, 11.69-11.7 ohms which translates to like 11700, and I have seen a pic on here showing where the orange wire is and where to put the resistor.........I don't have to bypass the starter relay do I? Bypassing the relay is only if you don't have a key period?

If the car will crank (although slowly/weakly) and run and drive, the VATS being "bad" doesn't make sense to me though, if the VATS is bad, the car wouldn't start at all would it?

google link showing code 53 for these cars as bad EGR valve...http://www.bnb32.com/camaro/check-er...maro-firebird/ "System over voltage – over 17.1 volts OR EGR sensor fault, improper EGR vacuum OR VATS alert."

but this one says.... http://www.iroczone.com/2009/10/1982...maro-firebird/ "Voltage
at ECM terminal B2 is greater than 17.1 volts for two or more seconds. Faulty charging system."

Thanks for any help in this matter, I decided it would be cheaper to buy an entire new engine for this car if it needs it rather than pay some scam used dealer here 10000 bucks for an 18 year old chevy 1500 with 177k miles lmfao...what a ripoff...that's like double/triple the bluebook value....the used market in my area seems to either be pure junk or overpriced wayyyy high.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...able-vats.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...o-350-tbi.html


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...ing-tuned.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-VATS-or-P...1WEYiu&vxp=mtr

here's a few links on how to disable the vats, you can pull codes and if code 53 appears thats the issue.
removing the prom if you bypass the enable relay would allow the engine to crank/start to test if its vats as well.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

The running issue sounds like a bad fuel pump. You should start bye checking fuel pressure after you address the vats.

WhiteSnake91

I'm going to look locally for some resistor pack then if not just order a value pack off amazon, I've seen conflicting posts online saying where to insert the resistors though, some say plug it into the orange wire coming from the ignition where the two small white ones are, others say not to do that at all, they claim to plug the resistors into the other side going to the ECM, I'll have to look later but I believe mine were a white and light purple wire all twirled together leading to the connector(ECM side of course,I found the orange wire very easily).....some even claimed you can disconnect the orange wire entirely and cut it totally out.

I'm sure it must vary from car and even year to year, I watched a youtube vid where the guy cut the orange wire and plugged the resistors right into it on some newer model chevy car, totally different from how the firebird setup is....

should it really go where the little white wires come out of that big orange one under the steering wheel or on the other side that the orange connects to? https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...able-vats.html that topic shows the orange side....yet this site on google, and some others I've lost track of claim to do it from the other side going to the ECM. http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/gene...s-vats-517921/ "You did put the resistor on the side that goes to the PCM and not upto the ignition switch, right?" or this one here where it looks like it's not the orange wire, not sure, he said it was a 4th gen pic but the same setup for 3rd gen https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...ring-help.html


:P in short, the orange ignition wire side, or the other side going to the ECM? Thx for your help. I've just seen conflicting reports, even on here IIRC from random googling.

edit: since I've seen such blurry pics online and people not going into super detail I might as well ask....so...some said leaving the orange wire from the ignition connected is BAD since it'll be in series with the OHM in the key plus the resistors, making it a bad value....apparently the right way is to cut the orange wire totally out, then attach resistors to the other side with purple/white wires.

I'm glad I read much more on it as that seems to be the right way to do it ^

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

The orange wires go to the passkey module. Adding the resistors at the bottom of the column bypasses the key reader only.

WhiteSnake91

After I put the new spark plugs and wires and get a new fuel pump relay since I seem to have replaced the coolant fan relay by accident since online every pic year by year labeled each relay in a different spot, and I lost the old one somehow, I plan on doing the fuel filter then driving this car to autozone so they can test the alternator since that's the biggest most common code 53.

I think I mistakenly thought it was VATS since it can be that, but...if my car will crank and start period I don't think this issue from code 53 is vats, online it says it can be an overvoltage problem from a bad alternator or even bad ECM....if that's the case I think I'll put a carburetor on this thing, would be cheaper than an ECM probably lmao...

maybe it is vats, but its design purpose is to stop the car from even starting...and mine does start, although slowly probably from a bad old starter I'm guessing. My battery is alright, it's a 3 month old Interstate that got tested good before. I wasn't able to find resistors locally since radioshack went out of business about 2 years ago here I'd estimate

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Code 53 on the TBI 3rd gens is a VATs error. There is no overvoltage error code on TBI 3rd gens.

Remember that this is a stored code, which could have been set once in the last 50 startups.

RBob.

WhiteSnake91

I do remember reading that too on some online search,hmm. I haven't started it 50 times since I've owned it, tbh I've had alot of trouble with the car, but I did disconnect the battery for a bit until I found the sucky offbrand Dual radio was doing a big parasitic draw so I figured any codes would be erased. So the code 53 must be very recent...

but by the very definition of VATS, if it was messed up my car wouldn't start at all will it?

There's a disorganized bundle of wires under the steering wheel, I read about the starter enable relay by the left foot kicker panel, how can I check if it's been jury rigged on? Maybe the old owner messed up this wiring somehow. The orange ignition wire hasn't been cut and no old owner ever put any resistors in, that I can see at least.

Just doesn't make sense to me the more I think about it, VATS would stop the car from even cranking or running period right? But my car does.....although slowly/weakly from a number of problems it probably needs fixed...

this topic I found talking about the alternator was just one of several I found...I have so many topics bookmarked from here I've read it's crazy lol https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...code-53-a.html


edit: I found out what most of the jumble of wires is....a dead remote car start/car alarm, then another little smaller "shock sensor" which seems to be a car alarm too....sigh....I can attach pics later, it's a MESS of wires and I'm not sure what I can cut or leave in...

a mechanic shop around the corner said they'd look at it for free, one guy said it sounds like a clogged cat since I don't even have enough power to drive up some little car ramps to check out the starter.

I looked at what I believed to be the starter enable relay and nothing looked changed on it so I don't think it's been bypassed and the orange wire hasn't been bypassed either so it appears to all be stock VATS, maybe these two cheesy long-dead alarms are causing a problem idk.....my mom said she had a car alarm act up on her 85 and had to call the cops to come help and they just pulled the fuse many years ago and it never caused a problem sitting there "dead" , so maybe these two dead alarms are no problem at all...but I severely HATE the messed jumble of wires hanging there

I appreciate the help, I've learned alot considering a year ago I literally didn't know anything about vehicles at all...I feel like neo in the matrix now haha...

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Don't need to crank the engine to set the VATs code. Just a key-on, engine-off and no signal to the ECM will do it. My guess is that it is an intermittent issue.

RBob.

WhiteSnake91

That does make sense, I could be mistaken thinking it's my starter when it's some weird VATS issue, I ordered a resistor set online and will put them together and unplug the orange wire from the cylinder and just put the resistors in the side going to the ECM, also ordered a timing light and watched a vid on how to do it, I have a feeling my timing might be too low, the factory claims zero but many online say 6 degrees advance is the sweetspot for these engines

WhiteSnake91

you were right indeed, I still want to get my alternator checked sometime soon as well, but VATS finally went kapoot last night when I went to get some burgers...turned the key and literally nothing happened but the security light came on...twisted on some resistors and it started up although the cranking time was still taking a bit longer than I'd like.....and this is with a good fuel pump relay as well as a good fuel pump fuse. I got under the car and the filter on it doesn't look old at all, I'll need to go buy a jack to access it though.

Going to let it sit about a week then check the timing, put a can of engine restore 8 cylinder which seemed to help already, it was smoking a bit even though I did the driver valve cover gasket already, and when I did the new spark plugs on the passenger none of them were burnt, looked good, but were all NGK so I put acdelco, some people on here swear anything but OEM makes the car run bad -shrug- , couldn't reach #7, I'll change that one when I get a jack.

besides the actual big distributor though, I've literally almost done an overhaul to the car though....new acdelco plugs, pro wires, coolant temp sensor, bwd tps, bwd iac, bwd dist. cap and bwd rotor, acdelco ignition control module, acdelco ignition coil...

now I should literally have no engine codes since 53 was vats. I think I need to go to a trans shop and have them look at the 700r4 plunger/spring or even govener though, it revs really high and I never feel it shift, went ~45 down the straight road to the burger place fine though, had to slow down :P

I have adjusted the 700r4 TV cable but it didn't seem to help any. When I pull on the throttle which also pulled the TV cable, I can hear something down in the trans moving too.

I've never had a car have to rev so high to shift gears, it worries me. Although in one youtube vid one guy was driving either a camaro or firebird and his didn't shift till really high too almost redlining.

I still have a strong feeling I have a dying starter since it takes a bit to crank, then that one day after it died trying to go up the car ramps it wouldn't crank till like 15-20 mins passed, guessing the starter got heat soaked idk.

with all of that out of the way....when I left the burger place the car did crank instantly up due to the oil pressure being high still I'm guessing(which is weird since it has the new fuel pump relay yet on the cold start it took a bit to crank), but then idled real low like...500ish or even lower and sounded like it was about to die then I gave it some gas and held it to ~1k for a couple secs then it idled much better....not sure what could be causing the bad initial rough idle like it's about to die unless I give it some gas to let it "warm up" I guess....I heard of doing that with old carbs, but this is tbi.

thanks for the help on the vats, stupid thing would have left me stranded somewhere....