He posted this up on another board. I guess he didn't have the time to come here and post it..but I thought y'all might like to know.

 

I knew that he would eventually join the dark side!!

:hail: :lala:

 

I remember it was faster when he put your carb on too. He said he hated the loss of low end though. He should probably get a performer RPM or something now.

 

When he put my carb on, he lacked low end mostly because the pump shot was wayy off for his motor. We never did any tuning to it..just took it off my motor and put it on his. Then again..I'm sure that POS torquer 2 had something to do with it too.

 

I think the 'lack of low end' is a tuning issue and nothing more. If he ever brings his car west, I'll let you know

 

Pablo always seems to have tuning problems .

 

Oh my ***! Heretic!! Burn him at the stake!!! Burn him!!! . After all this time pushing TBI, and telling us all to 'hang in there'. Ha! Well, now I know what I must do, and that is to convert to the paganistic culture of carburation.

 

haha. . I don't like stock style carbs. Aftermarket ones could be a whole different ball game. If you know how to tune them then cool for you but if someone doesn't, they might as well stick with TBI. They could learn to tune the TBI since they already have it.

 

we will convert you all eventual :devilish chuckle:

:hail: carburation


Seriously though, whatever works for you!

 

AH geez, now that I convinced myself to stay with TBI even after a possible 350 swap I hear this.
Woe is me

 

Shane B. ran strong 13's on his 350 and TBI so don't worry about it.

 

bout time.

I think I will too. JUST KIDDING.

since im not really planning on making the 92 faster right now, ill stick with tbi for fuel economy.

TBI tuning is comming along though. Ill just let the pioneers go ahead of me, and then let them tell me how to do it. I was gona be a pioneer, turns out. i dont have time.

 

I was hoping for 12 flat with a ZZ4 shortblock, AFR's, and a nice cam

 

In the sig. TOo bad Pablo didn't know how to tune TBI. He didn't believe in using a scan tool.....first mistake. He taught me the beginning of eprom burning but then left....oh well, he didn't have time to fiddle with TBI so I guess it's for the best.
My proof is in my sig, btw, those times are with the 330ho crate motor which has a pathetic flat tap cam with 212 intake and 222 exhaust and lift below 460! Oh yeah, and that eprom didn't have ANY timing table adjustments, stock ANLU.bin timing with only fuel adjustments. Considering timing is worth a lot of power, not to mention I've yet to get any knock means I'm most likely no where near the potential of this engine. I'm now running a much better spark and BLMs are closer to 128. With tracktion I'll be good to go. Going to the track between March 22nd and April 1st (my spring break), so expect some better times to be posted in my sig around that time.
As for you carb junkies, that's great, go carbs....but for my daily driver I'll stay with EFI. I probably could have saved about $100 if I had just converted to carb but then again I would have had to do something about my fuel pressure so more like $50 more to keep TBI. Is it worth it...yes, because I have a system that doesn't get effected by bad weather conditions or temp. There is always a mechanical answer to electrical problems but you'll never match the accuracty of a well tuned EFI system be it TBI, TPI, or SFI.
I'll say this, carbs have their place. If you're lazy and don't want to do with what you've got, go with a carb. You'll be happy how easy it is to get running decent and the WOT performance is just as good if not slightly better than TBI.

 

I knew he would turn eventually. Hehe Everyone goes carb eventually. (Jester,Pablo,Shane Buss,Camaroracer1992,Duke) just to name a few of the favorites

 

I'll eventually go 4 barrel.....but it'll be either a 750cfm or 900cfm holley pro-jection setup controlled by a GM ecm and a homebuilt injector driver board.
Carb is great but if you've got EFI, why step backwards?
It's just like a roller cam. Why get a flat tap larger cam when you've already got the roller setup, just need to find a roller cam! So what, it's a little more expensive but at least it isn't a step towards unreliable.

 

I like carbs just like the next guy BUT if someone says carb is always better, they made need a ride in my Jeep in a week or so...

update coming to my "It's coming together post"

I ALWAYS knew he'd bail and was doing things wrong... Oh, well. As long as he's happy. Scantool is mandatory for perfection...

 

If I was to go to carb, it would be just for the track. Theres no way I would run a carb on the street because EFI runs so well.

 

Cars with major mods don't run that good unless they have custom tuning. Carbs are very capable of running good on the street.

 

Yes maybe but for some wierd reason I like to be able to drive away without warming up on those cold days; I like how a car starts without having to pump the gas a couple of times; I like the computer controlled idle. Maybe I've just had good experiences with EFI.

 

this is all true

 

Yeah, **** you guys too! I just love it when people make their speculation seem as though it is actually what another person is thinking or has told them. Ill be damned If I ever said I thought scantools were **** in a non facetious manner. **** if it were up to me Id have every tuning tool imagintion can concieve. I have wet dreams about WB o2 sensors

carbs are easy as hell to tune, run smoothly right out of the box but damn they are pathetic if they dont have vacuum signal. Case in point, with the carb, I have to launch at around 3000 rpm and I juggle the gas and the clutch and the car will go pretty good. With the TBI if I launched at 3000 rpm I would burn the tires down to the rim.. with the tbi the most I would launch at was 1500-1800 rpm and even then it would spin like crazy if I wasnt carefull

granted I havent gone all through the carb to optimize things. Just what the standard edelbrock calibration kit offers and ive gone through the range of jets, pump up springs, rods, and the The pump shot is as large as what I can get with the standard pump shot setup and arm, and I have the largest primary/smallest WOT rod end combo the edelbrock kit includes. it still is way lean under 2800 rpm

By the same token, the tbi is very hard to tune.. and not because its tbi, but because its EFI and none of the aftermarket is spitting out chips for it like the AS&Ms, tpis's etc... just about any combo you can think of has been done a zillion times with TPI.. there is no set combo for a tbi setup though because everybody knows it sucks right?! Maybe im way too rich with the tbi.. in fact im almost sure of it.. and maybe im a little too close to the plenum floor for 20 psi of fuel pressure.. who knows.. But im definately leaning in that direction now seeing the sort of egts and o2 voltages with the carb. By the same token, my experience with the TBI has taught me alot about tuning carbs and I never had the opportunity to tune one in my life till i bolted mine on and right out of the box I felt very comfortable with tuning one and how it worked and could be improved. I see where my carb setup could be improved aswell, larger pump shot squirters for one, and something to increase the velocity through the primaries like a 4 hole spacer (maybe a 2 hole spacer? still have to do some research on if thats kosher or not.. seems to me like exactly what I need)
As far as driveability goes, my IAC was ****ing with me big time (took putting the carb on there to realize that)
and in the gas mileage dept, there is no contest, the tbi wins hands down... especially on the highway. The carb just sucks down gas and you could tune it for better mileage (which ive also done) but then Id lose even more wot low end.. around town its about equal.

Do I like the carb? Hell yea, just bolting it on was like bolting on nitrous. I went from a high 14 second car to a high 13 second car, no joke. The kids with the mustangs back home really did think I put nitrous.
Do I like the TBI? Sure, It just takes more time and investment to get running right which I never really did.
I compare the carb to an ak47 and the TBI to an M16.. the AK can do more potential damage with its larger round, and its simplicity making it easy for anyone with one to be a decent killer right out of the box
the M16 being much harder to use and less efficient with for the same thirdworld person that does allright with the AK
But in the hands of a skilled marksman trained in the ways of the m16 the m16 can be deadly for nearly three times the range of the AK47 with its smaller round. Some dumbass just picking it up out of the box wont be able to do that though

its all just tuning issues.. theres no black magic holding one or the other back. Theres no perfect induction system.. they all have problems. When you identify the problems you can begin to find solutions. Just crying out stupid **** like some ****in 15 year old bench racer "that sucks! they said so in super chevy!" is just lame and shows how much youve invested or care to invest into learning about what makes cars go. I know its pretty much a lost cause though trying to talk about this... people have taken the mentality that crosseyed crisco consuming sports fans take about their silly sports teams or those retarded rednecks take about their brand loyalties "Derr youd never cutch me dehd in no forduh"

I can tell you this much, im not done with TBI, and Im not done with carbs either, hell, im not done with anything.. as far as im concerned even a frickin zenith carb is fair game so dont look for me selling either anytime soon. I still think TBI has far more potential than carb but at this point I dont have the time to do the legwork to get it running right. I can forsee myself getting some fancy tuning doodads here in the future and running tbi on it.. actually pretty soon since I enjoy the whole "chase" and reward for finding power more than the actual power



you all can keep your silly notions of what voodoo makes one thing better than another. Im done trying explain **** Im fully confident about to people who think I dont know jack and have nothing to offer to the contrary other than the same old mindless sound bytes everyone and their brother repeats

 

I like the part where you explain cars using guns...now THAT'S an explaination!

 

ummmmm, pablo. look to the left of the regular coffee. you'll see a pot wiht an orange top on it, it's called decaf j/k
good to see you are still workin on it at least. drop me a line man.

later
tim

 

Needless to say, I'm sticking with TBI. I like it, and despite all the troubles I had, I am still content with what I have right now!
There is a lot of promise to it, and it's all just a matter of time until that next obstacle is overcome.
At one time I was so frustrated that I just wanted to scream something to the effect of "What am I doing throwing all my money away on this? Am I NUTS?"
It's just getting it all together! Eventually it all comes together. All systems are like that and all have their faults.
Working with TBI and learning about what works and what doesn't has made me realize that it is still the most flexible computer-controlled fuel system out there!
Hmmm I have a Deja-Vu.
My 2 bits.

 

If you want I can quote you from AIM message we had last spring. It went something like, "you don't need a scan tool..."
I've got a whole bunch of our IM messages logged on a backup CD along with old old old e-mail and it's all about how you don't need this or that, you just need to do plug cuts etc. I swear that plug cuts were good for the first 2 or 3 days but after that the plugs looked the same. So you be damned. Maybe you changed your attitude but when I started playing with TunerCat, you always said I didn't need a scan tool, as of right now I can't see how I would be where I'm at without one. I've never relied on it for WOT and performance tuning, but it's still a vital tool in getting any EFI system to work without spending days, years, and a gazillion eprom burns.
It's like trying to tune a carb without your noise and ears!!!
Maybe I should start cursing in ever other sentance, yeah, that's gotta be what my problem is, I'm too ****ing nice.

I might also add that going from TBI to carb isn't all that easy and I just remembered that you need to use a different dissy if you go to a vac/mech unit. I didn't have one just laying around. Only good part about carb is how it's all mechanical and you can tune everything with a few simple tools, jets, screws, springs, and weights. Like you said, the torque is unreal with the TBI. I'm having hell driving my car on the road only because the torque and hard shift kit is giving me wheel hope no matter HOW I drive.

 

Why not go TPI? You went 13.8 @ 102 with a 330 HP 350 engine, with mods? My dad just went 13.94 @ 98 MPH with a 305 TPI, with stock 350 TPI exhaust and LT1 cam! No headers! Granted, you've got 4 MPH more, but sheesh... Forget carbs, come to the TPI darkside! :rockon: :sillylol:

 

And did you want to pay for my school, apartment, food, and TPI parts which would include a new fuel pump and lines not to mention the injectors and intake parts? No...okay, I'll stay with TBI
BTW, what was your dad's 60' time and the weight of the car?
My best 60' was a 2.1 but that's because of traction problems. I figured that 245/50 zr rated street with a stock torque converter are killing me in the ET department while the timing was holding back my mph not to mention I was running pretty low fuel pressure and from the looks of it I was running slightly lean beyond 5000rpm. For that reason, my last (best run) of the day I lowered my shift points to 5000 and the auto shifted at about 5200-5300, before I was shifting at 5500. 3550lbs with half a tank of gas. I was running a full tank of gas at the track (filled up the day before).

 

It was a 1.9x 60' time. As for weight... its an RS, what else you need to know? I know the car isnt gutted.

You can make excuses all day long. I can do that too. My dad ran a 14.2@98 with his car, with a 2.6 60' time. Thats at least a 13.6 right? Probably lower considering how long he was parked for. I hate bench racing... theres no fact in it.

 

hell yeah Pablo!! What all did you have to go through to switch to carb? I know that you've got to either put on an adjustable fp regulator, or change the fuel pump, and then mount the carb. Do you also have to change the manifold? Where did you put all of your computer harness stuff, did it just unplug from the firewall?

I've been begging people to help me with chips and stuff, but no one seems to be interested... I may have to go that way soon...

Mike

 

Did you gtech it or anything before or after?
An unbias comparison would be nice

 

I hate bench racing too but if you don't bother to figure out why you're running a bad ET and a good mph WTF is the point of trying to do better?
You said there's no fact in it...hmm...I disagree 100%. If I told you I ran say a 14.0 with a full tank of gas and no gutting of the car, full weight and on street meats. Then I told you I'd run a better time with slicks, 1/4 tank gas and gutted interior, is there no fact in what I just said? Let's think about this for a second (how long it should take). Lighter car with traction...hmmm....YES, it most definatly would run a lower ET unless you're on crack and your floormat gets wedged up under the pedal .
Bench racing and comparing others times with similar setups is the only way to know if you should be able to do better. If you think I'm not going to turn faster than a 13.8 and more than 102mph I'd like to hear why, think it's the TBI that's my problem?
1.9 60', that would be nice if I could hook like that.

 

First let me address J prevost,
Sure ive said scan tools are not a neccessity, they arent, furthermore, a scan tool would do exactly squat for me in the wot department. How in the hell do you figure the car hauls *** with a carb or any car with a carb can haul ***.. after all, there is no ALDL port to attach to on a carbed car (except mine) No lap top to magically make your car faster. You DO need supplementary information.. that may be an EGT, or plug readings, or an A/F led gauge and best of all, a trap speed or some other power measurement.. an *** dyno included up to a certain extent

as for bolting on a carb.. its not hard at all. Heres what I did, I bought a carb, unbolted my TBI unit and unplugged the TPS, IAC and injector wires
I removed the TPS from my tbi (actually I had an extra tps I used) plugged that back in so i wouldnt get codes for tps crazyness
re-attached the MAP vacuum line to the carb, and just turned down the fuel pressure on my external regulator to 5 psi
Oooh that was hard
the computer still controls the timing and i still have the computer dist which is no problem for me because the timing table in my chip has no WOT enabled advance
I could convert back to tbi in 15 minutes

to the last guy "did you gtech it?"
No but its fairly easy to notice a 50-60 hp gain especially when you go from getting whooped by the same mustangs you are now whooping handily and i dont mean just edging them out.. im talking like going from getting walked to blowing their doors off by multiple car lengths

does that mean carbs are better? hell no.. it just means the carb is WAY easier to tune... to get to where it runs pretty damn good anyways
but like my analogy with the assault rifles, the TBI has far more potential when used properly
Ill be using tbi again, and ill still be using carb aswell
to me its nothing to swap back and forth and thats what makes hotrodding fun to me, the tinkering which wont ever stop unless I stop liking cars

 

btw j, you oughta try a carb on your car for educational purposes.. you learn a hell of alot about your setup which easily translates into things you could change on the tbi setup

 

I knew he was a f-cking weirdo. this is funny though. Seeing Pablo say these things about carb and such. Oh well, when it comes down to it, carb is much easier.

 

Well, I wouldnt necessarily empty the tank. If you have traction problems now, taking weight off the rear isnt going to help much. Maybe you need to move the engine to the back and gas tank to the front

To some extent I agree with you, but I see too many people here (thirdgen in general) making excuses, taking the maximum amount of difference there could possibly be, and then not say thats what they should in fact run, but what their car can run. Can is on the timeslip. I think 13.8@102 isnt really far off from a normal run with a street car. If you were to do like some people do and take extra (or not extra) weight out, disconnect swaybars, run slicks, modify the suspension temporarily, etc. then yea with 102 you probably could run low 13's. Your time and ET to me look just like a run made on street tires with typical traction, its very indicative of what your car will run on an everyday basis.

I totally agree with Pablo's comment about trying a carb. I've messed with all sorts of cars, and I see all the carb bashing and the first word I think of is ignorant. Second is misguided. Third is foolish. Do I think TBI is your problem? Depends on what you think your problem is. Is your car going to be faster at the strip with a carb? Well, from what I have seen here and elsewhere, and carbs compared to most factory FI systems in general, yea the carb will be faster. The real question is, do you want to do that? Its like doing something silly like running without an air filter for that extra tenth. I guess you have to decide what you want and where you want to go. I'm kinda curious to ride in his car now, and mess with the carb since I know Carters quite well, and see if I cant change his mind about low end power. I did tell him when I rode in his car something wasnt right, that at 3000 and past there it fell on its face compared to what it should do. He even remembered I said that. And now its not like that no mo. Was the TBI the problem? I dunno, I didnt mess with it and havent had a single thing to do with it. I did know something wasnt right. Doesnt look so good, but its hard to say. I've had thoughts of ditching the TPI on my dads car just out of curiosity, see how it behaves and how it runs. If anything, it will for sure give me a better baseline as to what the car is capable of speed wise, and then maybe I will try to sort out whats amiss with the FI on it now. I like the look of the TPI alot better, its a little less risky for an underhood inspection than a carb setup (which rarely happens out here in Cali, but you never know), and I know if its all sorted out the driveability and mileage should be slightly better than a carb. Slightly. He is also planning on taking the car cross country, and I know for a fact that with the FI and MAF sensor, its not going to drive like crap when he drives up the rockies and into Denver. But as a test I think its a great idea. I happen to have a few carbs laying around, all I need is a manifold and distributor.

 

Pablo, I don't have the time to go searching for my posts but while you've been busy I'm mentioned that I'd like to swap a carb on my engine just to get some baselines. In fact I've said that probably once a month. This summer I didn't get a chance to do the carb swap because my friend had to use his 69 maro with a 600 double pumper as a daily driver since his beater's engine cracked the block. I was really ready to swap on his carb just like how you did it. Just the fuel delivery and keep the computer timing.
Madmax, the reason I like bench racing so much (along with NJSpeeder) is because it gives me a better understanding of which mods should/would and will most definatly give me a better ET and some mph. I'll tell you right now that my 13.8 at 102 was a joke, I thought it was going to be my worst run of the day. My tranny was shifting SO hard from 1st to 2nd that I was getting crooked. NJSpeeder was watching and my friends were staging behind me and even they thought I was going to just let off...well I didn't. The tcc is so tight that I couldn't load up the tcc for the life of me. I had my brake down to the floor and when I gave the pedal a smidge of gas the car starts to walk and if I give it too much gas the rear tires just start to do a really slow burnout. I'm glad I know what my problems are, only way I know what I have to fix is because I ran my car down the 1/4 and have numbers to tell me what's the problem.
Like I said before, I shifted earlier my last run and the car broke traction BAD! Before, when I was running the engine out to 5800rpm, the car would only chirp the gears and I was running 13.9's at 101 so I've figured out that I'm running either dog rich or really lean beyond 5400, how else would I know this if I hadn't done any bench racing?
As for the whole carb issue, carbs kick **** at high rpm with a good venturi design. A carb will atomize the fuel into a finer mist at higher air velocity while the TBI has to rely on the initial fuel injector spray pattern and the intake manifold's surface texture. The ruff texture and those patterns cast in at the bottom of most intake manifolds helps create turbulence that keeps the fuel in suspension. It's really wild and complicated but I know that TBI will will have a much harder time matching the peak horsepower of a carb engine. For that reason, you need to tune TBI to make more torque and hp below the peak hp. I like the TBI because it's got a lot in common with TPI and carbs. I don't "hate" either systems, I just prefer the TBI when it comes to daily driver and performance cost. Initially I'd like to have TPI but it's just too damn expensive.
My future will look something like this: Traction upgrades, try out a carb on this car, 8 p&h injectors with custom fuel rail by yours truly and use the Holley TB without the injector pod. It's almost always cheaper to just make your own EFI system when you know how it works and can program eproms. 8 injectors and converting a wet flow manifold to a dry flow is an easy and regular occurrence. Yes TPI looks cool but that means jack to me since I'm more for function than I am for appearance. A perfect example is what I've done to my car with the suspension and $$$ stereo install. I did go through a stage where I wanted to look faster (hence the z28 spoiler) and I even had under car neon! I grew out of that pretty fast considering I'm only 20 .
I like the looks of a good clean TBI setup just as much as I do TPI and carbs, only problem is carbs have been done to death and so there isn't anything "special" about em.
So again, carb = good but it'll never spend much time on my car because I need my car to drive 1080miles at least 4 or 5 times a year. That trip is through the Pocono's (mountains in PA) and the NJ summer weather is nothing like the dry Ohio weather. If I had my car in one place ALL the time, like in CA or FL, I probably wouldn't notice any difference between a carb and EFI except that the carb will most likely feel like it's more powerful because it has a steeper hp slope.
TBI guys, if you have major mods and don't feel like spending time tuning and learning how to go faster...go carb NOW and save yourself some time.
Pablo, considering I don't have an air fuel gauge, don't have a vacuum gauge, and do few plug cuts, unknown fuel pressure, just using winaldl, you gotta admit I'm doing pretty good.
Madmax, if you haven't figured it out by now, I don't mind spending time working out bugs. I don't like to use the word quitter because I think Pablo will take it the wrong way...tuff...I'm not a quitter, I'll never give up on my TBI setup. My goal is to get my car into a car magazine article explaining TBI and proving to the hotrod world that it isn't just for your wife's daily driver! I also plan on doing all this work with the GM ecms, no DFI for me.

 

DONT HAVE TIME. LOL. HAHAHA, LOOK AT THE POST. HAHAHAHA.

gotta admit, guys, you are really takin this one the extra mile to where most people are saying, "hey, i dont give a BLEEP"

but its still funny reading these posts.

 

J, stock converter? Car lowered?

I'm going the Vigilante route, I am thinking 3200ish stall is what I want. You might consider the same.

 

madmax, I'va actually got a 12" 2800stall continental lockup converter from Tim Burgess (electronics board mod). I got it over the summer but didn't have time to swap it in. I also have LCA relocation brackets that are getting installed in a few weeks. That should cure my traction and wheel hop issues.

 

I tried to tell you guys about this guy a year ago or so, but noone would listen to me... In fact, I was made fun of. Heee heee...

He'll get thrown out sooner or later, anyway.

 

Oh, and scan tools ARE necessary, but only for people who know how to use them.

 

bwhah are you talking about me? fast broker you are such a clown

have you actually burned a chip yet or is your boyfriend at edelbrock still doing that for you? lol stick to being a broker.. or a used car salesman. Thats where fast talking bull****ters excel

 

Really? I was recently hired by Pratt and Whitney to manage several JSF engine programs, so I must be a dumbas with two engineering degrees and several brokerage licenses... yes, I went to college after high school, unlike yourself who just couldn't muster the motivation...

I hope you never plan on flying one of them as I'll make that you don't, as you are unable, from what I have heard, and are now a pure landlover for the balance of your military career. Just rumors, of course, but if your last name starts with "M", I believe they are correct. Remember, the JSF engines will be tested in FL... I will NEVER forget your name and when it comes to flight tests, should you still be in the military, I will make sure that you don't even fill the tanks.

and YES, I am continuing my investment career on a consulting basis as I have started a new LLC with my Brother in CA. I have made more money in my investment job in the last month than you will make in the next several years and will continue to annuitize my business (do you know what that means?) into a business that I will pass on to my kin. If managing peoples money so well allows me to do pursue my PREVIOUS career and make even more money, I must be doing something wrong and be a bad guy. LOL! Dumb donkey. I do NOT sell used cars. I help people retire early.

In Pablo's defense, they don't use "scantools" to monitor turbine engine performance. They just ask the pilots if it felt faster or not... LOL.

And yes, my client/friend still helps me. Friends are friends and favors are favors. I do things for him as well. Who helps you??? Do you have friends? Have you ever swapped favors???

 

hey, reading all this is fun

 

im about to burst a ********! I just spit sunflower seeds all over the screen! Does everybody see this tool!? Ill bet he really believes he wields all this power too. Someone medicate this man!

 

lol i just realized he thinks im in florda
Guess his 007 operatives arent that good rofl!

 

That's where you'll end up. Bak at the 'rents.

 

I think you both need medication j/k