cort351w

My brother finally came around so I'm looking to get him a thirdgen. (https://www.thirdgen.org/classifieds...tgo?adid=1062; https://www.thirdgen.org/classifieds....tgo?adid=1283) I want to get him a very low mileage car--35,000 or less and preferably less. The car will be my brother's daily driver so it must be VERY reliable.

One of the cars I am looking at is an 86 Z-28 hardtop with 35,000 miles. It has a 305 (LG4, L69?--don't know yet) and a 5-speed. My dad says that an 86 is "too old" to be reliable and used as a daily driver. I say that of course it is not; plenty of people here drive 86 and older cars. (Note: Although my dad and I built the Cobra in sig, in almost all other respects, he is a "Motor Trend enthusiast.")

What do y'all think? Are there problems with using an 85 or 86 V8 f-body with VERY LOW miles as a reliable daily driver? (let's just say for 85, 86 f-bodies in general) What would I probably need to replace?

EDIT: I just read another post on a similar subject in which Jza said, "I'm just assuming this is your first car and that you're very young, since you wouldn't have to "convince" your dad of anything if it were otherwise; just go and get it yourself." Well I'm not that young, but I have to convince my dad on behalf of my little brother. I know these cars best of anyone in our family so I said I'd find my brother a thirdgen.

cort351w

Last thing--I'd like to get as many replies as possible, whether they support my position or not--I need a case to argue (or concede). Obviously, most of our cars don't have incredibly low mileage, but let me know how many miles you have, what you had to do, when, and if you drive the car daily.

85_ZED28

wasn't this already posted a while back??

anyways to try to help you out,

my 85 LG4 has 224 000 kms on it, and it runs great, 305's never die!!!

Mark A Shields

If it's an '86 it's not a L69, that is an HO engine and only 75 produced that year. Only 35k miles isn't a lot and can be riliable, though you might have to replace things like belts, hoses. But if the car has been maintained, and not left for dead, it should be fine. Be picky, don't settle for whatever comes first. I did, didn't research 3rd Gens and thought I was buying a L69 .

My car had 85k miles (carfax report seems to confirm it) on it when I got it, around 95k decided to change the cam, guess the previous owners never heard of an oil change, literally scooped out 2-3 handfuls of old oil deposits from the heads. Car started 2 time after cam change and never again, that's why I got the 350.

Be sure to change the tranny fluid and get a tranny cooler, will greatly lengthen the life of the tranny.

TransAm

my daily driver (in my signature) is my '85 trans am LG4 / 5 speed with 136,000 miles.

Only trouble i've ever had happened a couple weeks ago. Quit running on all 8 cylndrs.

Took the distributor cap off... cap & rotor were both wrecked; it's amazing the car even ran. Turns out that wasn't even the problem, it was actually that some idiot had run the plug wires b/t the manifold and the block... needless to say, #1 wire was nearly completely burned through. replaced the wires (in addition to distributor cap rotor and coil, just for kicks) and i'm off and flying, runs awesome.

I also drove this car to Florida from Massachusetts and back in the past 3 months.

To answer your question, ofcourse it's a great daily driver; but more importantly, it really comes down to giving the car a hard look-over before you buy. One of the reasons i purchased my car (when i bought it, it had 129,000 on it) was because mechanically it's very sound, especially considering its age. It starts on the first try every time, and runs strong... it just has a strong sound to it. I looked at a car for my brother the other day, it was an 86 LG4 with 90,000 on it; it sounded weak, and drove weak.


Good luck, hope this helps

86'ROC TPI

Mileage doesn't always matter. I bought an 86 Iroc with 68,000 on it and the motor blew at 80,000. On the other hand I'm currently driving an 86 T/A with over 150,000 on it.

RICH92RS350

Depends on whether or not it's been taken care of and/or abused.My 92 RS is my daily driver.Car has 225,000 miles on it.
Replaced the motor at 215K (old one still ran fine), rebuilt trans at 85K (destroyed 2nd gear-my own fault),replaced rearend recently (still working fine, just upgraded to posi/discs and lower gears).
If routine maintenence has been done, older cars can be perfectly fine daily drivers, just stay on top of issues as they appear.
-----And use synthetic lubricants everywhere possible,it's worth the extra cost.
-Rich-

Synapsis

My car is a 90, and was abused. The previous owner decided a paint job would be better than fixing the worn bushings in the suspension. But it's my daily driver and quite reliable.

And as for an old car being reliable. My 1961 VW was a daily driver for me for 4 years (of hard driving) and a daily driver for my dad for 12 years, who drove it 60 miles a day. It's not my daily driver now because I the mods I did to it made in a tad unstreetable. (Weekly valve adjustments....)

spartyon

anything with 35,000 mile on it is practically new! with the exception of the old pintos but u dont want a pinto so i say it is really reliable just gonna gas ur bro to death. if a v8 i am assuming?

92blue

iTrader: (1)

I would think that its 135,000 miles, not 35,000. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that in 86, there were only 5 digits on the odometer right? It is not easy to find a car that old with so few miles on it.
If it has been maintained however, they are extremely reliable cars. Don't pay attention to consumer digest. Supposedly, my car is on the top twenty list of cars you shouldn't buy for reliability. Its my daily driver, and during the two years I've had it, I have never had anything but the power window motor break on me. Everything I've done to the car has been either maintenace, or performance mods.
Now that I think about it, my dads 79 GMC van (it has a 350) has over 400,000 miles on it, and it still runs. It is in major need of a rebuild, but thats just normal engine wear. Even so, it is more reliable than my moms 98 Camry, which goes to show (in my opinion) how reliable and durable 350s, and 305s for that matter are.

spartyon

ahhh good point 92blue. i forgot about the odometer slots. its probably 135,000 then. if thats the case keep on lookin. unless he wants to build which from your statment i dont he does he just wants one to drive every to and forth correct? if so no!

cort351w

If it is a 135,000 mile car, then it's a quite a ripoff pricewise. Anyway, whether it's that particular car or not, I want to get my brother a low miles thirdgen. Near stock they aren't even that bad on gas. My Formula got decent mileage and then it even got 22 mpg with combined highway and city running on 7 cylinders for a few days (plug wire). I can't wait to see the new gas mileage with the headers, exhaust, and K&N conical. Also, the car will be a V8, preferably an L03 or weaker LB9 or maybe an LG4.

SlowStangEater

EXACTLY I bought mine with 197,000 miles on it and everyone thought I was CRAZY,,, LOCO in the head!!! But I just hit 207,000 miles and the only problem I had was a loose wire. My ground bolt was never tightened down!! So its all about changing the oil and tune ups! Take care of your car and she'll take car of you!

jasonbennett

that would be the perfect car for him. it would teach him how to work and care for a car, not to mention keeping the 3rdgens going strong. these cars will last as long as yu want them too. besides even if he is hard on the car, it will probably last him thru high school. then he will get his monies worth out if it, or yours anyway. you can teach him all about f-bodies and show him how to get the most out of it.

Buck268

I got a 1991 Camaro RS, with the L03/700r4 combo. I must say, once i gave it a tune up, and replaced the centerlink (it had suffered from some slight lack of maintenence), I haven't had any problems, save for the usual type (brakes need to be done now..). It always gets me to my destination. starts up right away (after a little cranking though) even on the coldest mornings. I personally am impressed with it, seeing as it has 130,000 miles on it, with a little rust, and basically everything is fine (mechanically speaking)...

DSaylor

I've had the car in my sig for 4 years and it's not once left me stranded. The first 2 years or so it was a daily driver. It had over 120,000 miles on it when I bought it and I don't think the long list of previous owners treated it the best.

I take this car everywhere now, and on the highway I get between 28-30 mpg, and on a long roadtrip I know I'm gonna make it home.

Can't argue with that for reliability.

Vader

Cort,

My '86 has the "million mile" odometer, so there should be a leading zero in the display if it has only 35K on it. At that age and mileage, I'd be more concerned about problems from desuitude than wear. Tires could be dry, bushings could be hardened, clutch cylinder seals could be hardened, and everything that hasn't reached a mileage limit for service should still be serviced due to age. The transmission and rear axle will need service, as well as a cooling system flush, belts and hoses, bearing repacks, fuel filter replacement, brake inspection, etc. Inspect the body for hidden corrosion as always, but with that low mileage corrosion may be limited to the exhaust system and radiator from lack of use. I'm guessing that heavy rust and corrosion aren't real issues in the DFW area.

There is nothing that a little routine maintenancee shouldn't cure. However, from a reliability standpoint, an EFI engine is generally going to be a little more reliable than a carbureted engine. The carb would simply require a bit more periodic attention and adjustment to keep it in peak condition, and many people neglect to perform that maintenance.

Also, depending upon when during the model year the car was produced, you may have the older design gauges with the 85 MPH speedo. That isn't a real problem for reliability, but just another difference that you might want to be aware of.

The '86 CCC and TBI fuel systems used the older, very simple ECM (869) and it was very forgiving. There shouldn't be any trouble with that. There aren't a lot of bells and whistles with the system, nor the car, so problems should be minimal unless there is something grossly abused, which should be evident o a thorough inspection. That would include at least a compression test, operational and driveability check, and a trip to a lift to inspect the underside (suspension and steering parts, busings, underbody, exhuast, etc.).

If everything is intact and only requires routine maintenance, the price will be a little higher for a car with mileage that low. Still, unlike the USAF, aim low. You can always meet them in the middle.

SkyWarrior

I got mine when it had 86,000mi on it and it has 190,000 now. These 305s will run forever if you cange the oil every 3000mi or so Mine has the million mile odometer too. Themain thing to watch out for is hard driving. I drive hard, and so I've had to replace a lot of stuff, brakes and tires mostly. a few clutches. I had to have my tranny rebuilt, but like Isaid Idrive hard. Drive the car, check for leaks, check for funny noises. Oh and I drive my car everyday; rain, sun, snow, or ice. and being rear wheel drive sporty cars then don't like ice. I love my car, and I'm keepin' it forever.

gruveb

Well each car should be evaluated on its own merits. I have an 84 that I drive constantly....I had to replace a little of this and a little of that...but with any used car you're gonna want to treat it the same way, whether it's 2 years old or 20.

Reliable cars are a funny topic. I have a 92 Grand Prix with close to 180,000 on it and it is nearly perfect except for the driver's side window motor.....that's IT!!!

I have had a 93 Dodge Shadow that wasn't reliable when it was new!

I would say an 86 F-Body would be a reliabel car. Remember, how clean it is will often reflect more than how the owner took car of the car's looks. It will often tell you how he took care of the car's maintenance.

One great thing about these cars is that if they brake (and all cars do.....ALL CARS), these are easy and cheap to fix.

2vmodular

owner is likely going to want a high price for an 86' with just 35,000 miles. if you want a reliable vehicle, your money would probably be better spent on a late model fourth gen.

cfabe

Like some others have pointed out already, even with a car with that low miles, its still an old car. Most likely, it wasnt kept in good repair and driven regularly. It probably sat disused for a long time, which can lead to some problems of its own(see vaders reply). 35k is a very low mileage thirdgen, you're going to pay a premium for that. I think your brother could be served just as well by a car that is in good mechanical condition with still moderate mileage (say in the 80k to 100k range). If you know your way around these cars you'll be able to tell if a car has been taken care of or if its been abused. Give it a full tune up when you get it and keep it in good repair and it will serve its duty well.

For ultimate reliability, In general i'd reccomend getting a fuel injected manual transmission car, and in this family that means a tbi 305 t-5 car. You can get a tpi auto but keep in mind that any auto tranny over 100k miles is nearing the end of its life.

RJR99SS

i hear a lot of people complain about the reliability of f-bodies, but these people are morons. The problem with f-bodies is they have a little sport in them, and most people who drive them dont mind taking them to the limit.

Of course the neglect to do things such as change oil, grease the steering linkage, etc. Then they get suprised that their car breaks down at 30,000 miles and start complaining about it.

I really do think a camaro or firebird is one of the best daily driver cars out there. Personally i'd drive a 2nd gen, i get really annoyed with the 3rd gens unibody. But all in all its a very reliable car.

I drive a 89 rs for a daily driver and it runs suprisingly well, even though the previous owners must of went to the special school when they were kids. The guy just had it painted, but he put it up for sale because he believed that it started to burn oil. Because of that i was able to get it off him for pretty cheap, but....when i went to change the oil i noticed the oil filter was covered with oil, and i easily spun it off with my hand. So i put a new filter on, tightened it up right, and i havnt had a problem with loosing oil since. And just today i was changing the tie rods because there was significant play in the wheels. I was playing with the drivers side tie rod, and i moved it fully to one side and the damn joint came right out of the socket!! thats how loose it was. the car only has like 100,000 miles on it, so obviously this guy never greased it.

But my point is, if you are buying an f-body, make sure you acertain exactly how the old owner treated it. ask him questions about the car you already know the answer to, test his knowledge of the vehicle. If he sounds like an idiot, just pass it up. As everyone pointed out, milage makes no difference, its how it's been treated.

82CamaroZ28

Some moron did the exact same thing to my engine


More related to the topic at hand, I bought my 82 LG4 with 54000 miles on it. The car had been garaged every winter and it ran decent. However after a good tune up (carb, cap, rotor, wires, plugs, belts, filters, etc.) it ran really well . I have never had anything go wrong with the engine other than stupid things like forgetting to plug back in vacuum lines.

DABE

i just bought a 92 RS 5 speed with 125K on the clock...its my daily driver...runs great...yes its a 305...but it will be a fresh 350 from my other camaro that was wrecked from behind...

It really depends on how the car is taken care of...

125k+ miles and its all stock and it can chirp in to second and lightem up easily in 1st....and it still rapes ricers

DABE

Warpedx

I bought my 91 RS 305 at 119,000. Drove it from Chicago to San Diego, CA; San Diego to Pensacola, FL; Pensacola to San Diego. Motor blew then, but after a rebuild its running again, and I drove once more from San Diego to Pensacola, where I am now. Still love to drive it.

TomP

People have funny ideas about reliable... how many people do you hear say "I don't want to buy a new (insert name here) car because they're not reliable." I think an unreliable new car in 2002 isn't a common occurance anymore. Do they think it'll be breaking down every other day? That's what a $100 car does.

I've got 232,000 miles on my '86 V6... I bought the car in Dec '93 with 65,000 miles on it. Sure, it's been through an alternator or two, a water pump or two, and two transmissions, but geez, cars get old, and things break. You buy a '90 car, you might wind up replacing the trans too! One thing with '86 automatic trannies in F-bodies; GM revamped the fluid pump in the 700r4 (4 speed overdrive trans) in 1987. The 1986 pump would allow for aeration (mixing air with fluid), and the trans would run dry for lack of constant lubrication. So that might be a "reliability issue". But you said it's a 5 speed, so it's a moot point.

But geez, anything's going to break. I agree 100% with RJR. I have a friend who had so many problems with his low mileage '91 Formula compared to my '86. I think his poor car was upset about not being driven. Personally, I'd be more concerned with body condition and RUST than engine/trans/axle condition.

Vader

Actually, the revised transmission oil pump (and valve body) was a mid-'86 model year production change. I can't seem to pin down exactly when that happened. Additionally, there seems to be some difference between the Ohio cars and Van Nuys cars for those updates, probably due to the lag in the supply chain from the Hydramatic Division and the stockpiles of transmissions in que. Many '86 model TH700-R4s got the improveed pump amd valve body, and many didn't. I got lucky.

cort351w

:hail: all of you guys! Thanks so much! Thanks to your replies my brother will be getting an 84 Z-28 (that I found, of course ). The car is a red-with-grey-ground-fx hardtop with the L69 and T5. The only mod on the car is a Dana rear that's holding 4.10 gears and posi (bye bye gas mileage; hello ). The guy said that you would never know that the rear & gears weren't stock by the way they behave--smooth, no whine, has never had any problems. The guy was pretty knowledgeable about the car, and he actually has a couple other thirdgens. He says that the car is easily showable; that the exterior has no flaws and no rust, and that the interior looks like it just came out of the showroom. Since the car has 18,000 miles, I asked him all about how often it is driven, if it was stored for a while and how long, etc. Apparently, he drives the car a little bit every month and changes the oil regularly. He said that the car starts right up the first time, every time. He said that seals are good; the car has no leaks. I told him that, hypothetically, if I bought the car, I'd have to drive it from Ohio (where he is) back to Texas. I asked him if he foresaw the car having any problems making the trip. He said that he would not think twice to make that trip in the car, that it had no problems at all that he knew of. It really sounds like a good car. I just wish I didn't have to go almost to Pennsylvania to see and most likely buy the car. Oh well.

I am so excited! I mean I am so damned excited! My brother has a couple years of driving under his belt, but this will be a big change from a V6 Grand Am. I almost hope that there is a little work to be done on the car, just so he can work on it or help me work on it. I know that after working on my car, I am so careful, protective, and proud of it--I just want to make sure that it stays nice, and I treat it very responsibly. I need to instill that into my brother (and maybe it will happen when he starts working on this Z-28). If there's nothing to do, I'll just have him do some stuff to get familiar with the car, or maybe we'll do some light mods.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for the replies! I'll be sure to post pics of the new Z-28 and of my still-unseen Formula.

thirdgen.org

TurboSteve

My 1989 Formula serves as a daily driver to the tune of 98 miles per day. It gets about 20 miles to the gallon and has 132,000 miles on the odometer.
Buying a car that is in relatively good running condition is a good deal of the work. Make sure it is cold when the potential seller starts it up, as people can try to hide a start-up knock by warming the engine up first. You'll also want to note its cold start characteristics and any smoke at start-up.
Purchasing an older car has its benefits in that there usually is no car payment or full coverage insurance involved. You can be sure that high mileage vehicles will need repairs, but not what your average car note would summon from your wallet on a monthly basis.
I would be prepared to do some work on the car and if your brother doesn't have that much automotive experience, make sure he gets some. Everyone should know a little bit.
Chevy V8s are nearly indestructable but occasionally one or two will fail for no apparent reason. Such was the case with Magnum TPI at GMHTP. The car only had 58,000 miles but started knocking. In this regard, mileage is not always a good indicator.
Cars that sit for long periods of time can suffer ill effects. Low mileage cars also usually demand a higher initial cost, and if you are going to be replacing things(as you should expect to with any used car short of a Honda) you would be better off finding something a little cheaper. Look for signs of maintenance such as recent replacement parts, clean oil and fresh plug wires and such. Sometimes you can get lucky as i did and the owner keeps records of exactly what they did to the car.
If your brother has no interst in cars per say, see to it that he gets a Honda or Toyota. If he wants a Hot Rod, then he will have some repair issues sooner or later. As for the mileage thing, there's a dude with over 2 million miles on his Volvo P1800 and the only thing he has replaced was the paint.

wiggy'sIROC

My 86 IROC with the LG4 305 has 214,735 miles on it and all that has been done to it is a new waterpump, alternator, intake manifold (my fault), and starter. It is still my daily driver and has not let me down.

Mark

lunas

my 87 trans am with 130,000 runs great.. The only real problem was the alternator dying. No other problems. Just make sure whatever car you buy has bbeen maintianed and is in good condition and itll be fine if you take care of it. I dont rape or neglect my car like some of my freinds who have killed their cars.

TBI305Camaro

my car hasnt been the most reliable BUT it wasnt the cars fault. i first bought the car with 97k miles even tho everyone said " thats to many miles on an american car" anyways the car has sat almost a year prior to the purchase...first day i bought it ran fine...next started stalling...fought this problem for months replacing various ****...finally one day i barely made it home and it died....was the fuel pump all along...also came to find the car was missing a plugs...fixed them and it ran perfect....other than that only problems ive had was a coil went out (2 month old hypertech...im sure a 14 year old GM still works but a high performance hypertech lasts 2 months ) and of course the starter went out..no biggys really ive had more problems because i mess with the car alot...ill tell you after getting that car i learned so much...ive had alot of stupid problems and people ask me all the time...if you had the chance would you buy it again....hell yeah i said and people have no idea why...i LOVE working on this car i get really frustrated sometimes but i like learning how to fix cars and modify them im sure ive saved so much money by doing everything myself oh yeah car has 106k on it now and pervious owner (neighbor) says its never ran better (he had it since it was new)

Chad Oliver

gm makes powerful, good looking cars. unfortunately I've never had a "reliable" car from them. I've logged 100k+ miles on different gm makes and they all had major repairs done at one time or another. My toyota has never had issues, neither has the benz. I've maintain my vehichles religiously. The only reliable american cars are relabeled from toyota, etc. I love the general's cars but they keep the repair shops in business, be aware that the stucture of metal used in the 90's is way better than older stuff due to technology in manufacturing and chemical makeup.

2vmodular

was a discussion previously about thirdgen reliablility:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=99316

Ward

iTrader: (1)

If you want reliability then I have three letters for you: TBI
My friends dad has a 93 chevy pickup with a 5.0 TBI and 280,000 on the original motor and its still running great. Granted it has had parts replaced that generally wear out, alternator, A/C compressor, and transmission, O2 sensor, but its still the orginal engine. We pulled the intake off about 2 weeks ago to re-gasket it since it was leaking a little oil. But overall TBI engines are dead-on reliable.

marhornetmech

Beware of V.A.T.S. EVEN THOUGH THAT IS NOT REALLY AN ENGINE RELATED PROBLEM, IT DID LEAVE ME STRANDED ONCE. V.A.T.S. WAS OFFERED FIRST IN 1989 I BELIEVE, AND WAS NOT RELIABLE. OTHER THAN THAT, A STARTER, ALTERNATOR, TUNEUP, AND IGNITION MODULE ARE WHAT I'VE REPLACED SINCE I BOUGHT THE CAR ABOUT 7 MONTHS AGO, NOT THAT ANY OF THESE THINGS CAME AS A SURPRISE. YOU WILL BE BETTER OFF ASSUMING THESE THINGS WILL GO SOON WHEN YOU BUY A USED CAR AND PREPARE FOR IT IN ADVANCE. JUST SET ASIDE ABOUT $200.00 FOR WHEN IT HAPPENS AND CHANGE THEM YOURSELF. MINE IS AN `89 WITH 305 TBI 5 SPEED. IF YOU WIND UP WITH AN F-BODY WITH ONE OF THOSE LITTLE CHIPS IN THE IGNITION KEY, PLEASE E-MAIL ME AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO PREPARE FOR V.A.T.S. FAILURE AHEAD OF TIME SO YOU WON'T END UP STRANDED FOR TOO LONG. marhornetmech@cs.com p.s. I know a thing or two about the rest of the car also. Need any help just e-mail me. Good luck.

Mshrmhd

umm both of my camaros have over 160k miles my 82 has tranny probs , but other then that , its a good car , bought it for $400 drove it for like 8 months , only 2 probs i had with it , alternator died at work .. and my water pump exploded taking someone home , easy fixes though..

Then i bought a 90 RS for $1000 it had like 150k on it ... i think i just put it onto 161k or something like that , both were my daily drivers.. now the 82 is sitting in my cousins girlfreinds yard with the chevelle, just being wonderful lawn ornaments.. i dont know how fuel efficeint the 82 was .. but my 90 got 210 miles on a 15.5 gallon tank , so thats what ? 13.5 mpg? alot better then my chevelle... i think it gets like 7 or 8 mpg but its a fast car! (when it doesnt have a blown head gasket)

hope this helps in any way

stuart69427

I have a 2.8L v6 w/ 134,000 miles on it. It's a great daily driver and I get 22 mpg! These v6s are hard to kill, a lot of people last well over 200k, these things are awsome.

Ed Maher

FOR THE LOVE OF JEHOVAH, please don't make your brother's first performance car an 84 L69 5 speed w/ 18k miles. That car needs and deserves to go to a collector, NOT someone who will tinker with and most likely FUBAR aspects of it. That car is a piece of history, 5 speed L69s are relatively rare, and does represent the high water mark of mid 80s performance f-bodies. If that car is in factory condition, it should be left as such, and in the hands of someone who knows the ins and outs of the car. It is NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST a suitable car for tinkering and modding on.

I don't understand why you are so set on getting a low mileage (read: collectible) thirdgen anyway. Properly maintained, a 100k mile thirdgen could and would easily be more trouble free and reliable than one that has never been driven. And at least when the little stuff goes wrong, you aren't destroying history whilst you fix it. For example, while i love the old computer control carb set-ups, and they can be very efficient (better MPG than the average TPI car when done right) and make lots of power....the fact is after 18 years, the whole thing will need to be gone through and adjusted most likely. If you don't / haven't already been working with computer controlled carbs, you won't be able to cleanly diagnose and fix it to run optimally without hacking it in someway, i'd put money on that. There is not a garage in this country that i believe would know how to work on the set-up either. A rare car is not meant for experimenting and learning on.

I'm not trying to flame you, it just seems like you aren't thinking this whole thing through very well. If you've never rebuilt a carb, or worked with early thirdgen emmisions systems, please walk away from low mileage rare examples. They are too quirky and unique for somebody to maintain without tinkering, and thats not opinion, thats fact.

Dunno if that will change your mind, but i hope it at least serves as a heads up on what you're dealing with.

Mshrmhd

mmm so are computer controlled carbs good? my cousin has a 3.8 with 275 horse and its carbureted with computer ... i think it only has like 35k miles on it too its in his 81 camaro , i dont remember what it came from , ill ask him when he gets home from school

Mshrmhd

hes selling the engine for $200 .. and it comes with some spiffy side pipes how hard would it be for me to put that engine in my 90 RS with a 3.1 MPI engine? but i dont think sidepipes would like right on a 3rd gen , they look badass on his 81 camaro though

Mshrmhd

weee isnt it spiffy?

cort351w

FOR THE LOVE OF JEHOVAH, Ed, wait up a second:

First, while my brother will learn, he won't be doing a damn thing by himself. While I'm not the best person to teach him, I can do a good job on the minor things that will be done to the car. I'm planning BOLT ON suspension upgrades--lca's, panhard, steering brace, sway bar bushings and endlinks. None of these things even require non-stock mounting holes! While I am planning on putting subframe connectors on, any thirden just lasts longer with sfc's so what's the problem there? Besides, they could be removed with a lot of effort down the road. I am planning on an aftermarket shifter, but that takes a whole half hour to install or remove. Besides these things, the entire car will be left stock. Everything that comes off the car will be stored indoors. Do you have a problem with these completely reversible mods?

(The biggest mod that will be done is the Dana rear, which was already done by the first owner.)

Second, while these cars are rare, you can still find a number of them. I passed over several other cars like the one I chose, most notably an 83 T/A pace car replica with 30,000 miles. (And then there's the 1,900 mile 92 RS Herritage Edition L03 5-speed covertible show car that sold last summer for $19,000.) Granted, the 5-speed cars are much less plentiful, but they are there. If you look, you can find low mileage cars in good condition. The only thing is that most people want a lot of money.

Why do I want a low mileage car? The super low mileage isn't my big thing. I care more about a very well maintained car. However, I'm not buying the car for my brother. I was helping my dad and brother out by finding the car for my brother. My dad thinks that the car needs to have low miles. I had to actually get him to realize that a mid 80's car that is all stock is not all original in most cases. He has never kept a car more than 100,000 miles (and only once did he go that far--in his 92 firebird L03--he didn't know that the tbi is just waking up at 100k ). He almost epitomized what I started calling the "Motor Trend entusiast"--he practically deified "the factory"; however it came from the factory is the right way; he thought that my car would never run again when I took off the TPI to have it powder coated (my car started right up when I put everything back on). Anyway, my (light) modding of my Formula has changed his perspective somewhat, but not that much.

Thirdly, cars are meant to be driven. That's really why they are made. There are plenty of "cool," nice, or exotic cars out there that I don't consider very cool simply because you can't drive them anywhere. F-bodies are not those cars. It's like Jay Leno says: Restore them to 100 points, drive them down to 10, and then restore them again.
This car on the driving side of 100.

And for the sake of history, I won't be getting a Judge whenever I finally get my 69 GTO. I may make some modifications so I'll go with a "regular" GTO, even though the Judges look SO COOL!! I won't even make a fake judge just because I like the look, either.

Lastly, if my dad or I have any doubts about my brother driving the 84, he will drive the Astro van for a while (hell, I drove it to freaking TCU most of this last year!). I may even end up swapping him cars for all I know. I can easily transfer my heim-jointed lca's, panhard, shocks and struts over to the other car!

Why have I never gotten any grief over my 91 Formula 305 tpi 5-speed with 19,xxx miles?

EDIT: as far as the FUBARing goes, I am probably one of the biggest perfectionists you will ever meet (I mean, if you ever meet me). I may not have the cleanest garage (in fact, it's pretty dirty right now), and I may get furious at times when I'm working on my car, but I've never broken or screwed up anything and I do damned good work. How about this, though--I'll test anything I want to do on my Formula and then do it on the Z-28

Also, I'll print your reply and give it to my brother, just to make sure that he understands the history argument. And also, my brother is not your typical almost-18-year-old. He is more responsible than most adults (I know that that can be taken a couple ways, but I mean that he is very responsible), he has always thought for himself (he doesn't do stuff because other people are doing it), and he has common sense. Did I mention he is the valedictorian of his class and he plays three varsity sports (X country, soccer, track)? I'm just saying that he is responsible and level headed and "wise beyond his years" and his driving reflects that.

Ed Maher

OK, sounds like you're an alright guy and all, it wasn't meant as a flame or personal attack in any way.

My point was with that low of mileage i would bet it's still very stock and unmolested, and also unmaintained. CCCS is a very goofy, unique engine management system. It WILL drive you insane if you don't know what you're doing with it. My concern is that in the process of learning how to deal with CCCS that some 'mistakes' could be made that could tarnish an otherwise pristine car. I mean, as soon as you break one weatherpak connector trying to jumper into it you have ruined something you can NEVER recapture perfectly.

There is a difference between a restored car and an original car. I'm sure you're aware of this if you're into the old muscle. So why then would you treat one of the baddest muscle cars of the 80s to a restification when it is already perfect and original. That just doesn't make sense. You wouldn't buy a numbers matching 18k mile GTO and proceed to mod it, or otherwise do anything to hurt it's originality (at least i would sure as hell hope not). What then is different about this 84?

And HO 5 speed cars are extremely rare. So much so that i have never even seen one in person. They are a very special car, i don't think you could buy a faster car from anybody in the timespan of 80-84, including the vette, early turbo regals, and the riceburners of the day (early rx7, supra, z cars, etc) If you were talking about a 70k mile car, or even a 50k mile car then i wouldn't bat much of an eyelash, but 18k is obscenely low. There can't be more than a handful of those cars out there with that kind of mileage on them.

Let's go back to the old muscle argument again. You said yourself you wouldn't buy a judge to play around with. Well thats exactly what you are doing to this 84. If you want a car to play around with and mod lightly, get an LG4 car, or a later TPI car. They are everywhere and VASTLY more plentiful then L69 5 speeds. An L69 5 spd is a special car, at least as special as a Judge. I base that on the fact that i have seen a few judges over the years in shows and at hot rod cruises, etc. I have never even seen an L69 5 spd car. Production numbers aside, there are probably less L69 5 spd cars (at least in remotely near stock / original condition) on the road NOW than GTO judges, just cuz a lot of judges would have been recognized as collectible and treated as such earlier on whereas thirdgen f-bodies are the car of choice for crash test pilots all over the country. Another complicating factor is everyone hates CCCS cuz they don't understand it. It makes me sick when i see so many former CCCS cars (l69s and LG4s alike) that have been converted to mechanical carb/distributor. You will have one of the only perfect original examples of an L69 engine bay, even amongst lower mileage cars owned by people who didn't know better than to yank out the computer crap in the quest for making their car faster.

Thats the perfect analogy coming from a thirdgen enthusiast. It seems to me that you think thirdgens are just throw-away cars. Sure cars are meant to be driven, but an 18yo car w/ less than 1k per year on it is just not a car that should suddenly be driven and treated like it's brothers in the 80s that are no longer on the road. Just like you don't want to buy your dream GTO Judge because you know you'd want to drive / mod it, a thirdgen enthusiast wouldn't take an 18k mile unmolested L69 car and mod / drive it.

If you are so competent a mechanic, why don't you explain to your father that ultra low-mileage is not going to make an 18yo car any more reliable. And as much as i hate to admit it, CCCS is going to be the least reliable computer / induction set-up in a thirdgen at this point and is also generally harder to diagnose problems in than TBI / TPI. And as i already explained, there is NOWHERE in this country that you could get to work on a CCCS car and not screw it up. I am reasonably sure that if you start driving that 84 full time you will have a lot more problems than if you bought a 100k mile TPI IROC. If your dad won't understand that, then he should not be in the decision process because he is just being stupid. not trying to grit on your old man, but there is just no other way to put it, low mileage != more reliable. If you wanted to buy a GTO and your dad said no way it has too many miles on it you'd tell him so what you're going to work on it and fix it up as necessary right. How then is this different? There are plenty of thirdgens well over 200k miles into them. There are also plenty of thirdgens that see massive repairs and overhauls at every point along the way. My 85 Z28 blew it's engine at 73k, and also ate 2 radiators and a heater core in the 30k miles i had it. My convertible has eaten 2 transmissions before 100k miles. All chevys need the occasional water pump and alternator. I'd be much more afraid of the condition of the cooling system/radiator/heater core in an 18k mile car than in a 100k mile car with good looking coolant.

This isn't meant as a personal attack, at least not so far as your ability to keep it up, store what you take off, etc. It is personal in as much that i think you don't have much respect for these cars if you would take an original car and ruin it just because you think they were meant to be driven (or because dad says it has to be a low mileage car). There are LOTS of thirdgens to drive, it is my humble opinion that you should leave the original examples alone, because there are not many of them around anymore...

cort351w

I had no idea that the L69 Z was in the same category as the Judge. I also got the impression from reading the boards that CCCS was fairly low maintainence. Now I'm in quite a bind. This is going to take some serious consideration because of all the stuff that has been rearranged around picking up this car. I guess the next question is how much is an 84 Z-28 L69, T5 with 18k miles and a Dana rear worth?

NOTE: From what the guy tells me, the car has been maintained. Judging from what you say, he probably hasn't messed with the carb. However, he says that he has religiously changed the oil and driven the car each month. I don't doubt that the coolant dates back to 1984. As far as LG4's being more plentiful, I could not even find a 5-speed LG4 or L03 with under 50k miles. (I limited my search to low miles cars as you can guess.) Also, I'm not going to claim to be a great mechanic, but I can do basic stuff.


As far as not being a thirdgen enthusiast, I'm not sure what you mean. Thirdgens are not my all time favorite car, if that's what you mean. In that case, I would be a GTO enthusiast. There are only a handful of cars that I would rather have than a thirdgen, though. I just didn't know that the L69 5-speed was so rare.

Ed, are you against hod rodders also? Think about this: any car from the 20's, 30's, or 40's has two routes back into life. They can either be restored to original condition or made into hot rods. Would you condemn a guy for building a rod?

I don't think I understand your original vs. restored argument. What I see is that incredible restorations sell for more than original cars at big auctions such as Barrett-Jackson. As far as driving the car, I'm saying that the car is nice right now. It should be driven. When it has been driven and isn't quite as nice (that's a long time with proper maintainence), then it should be restored. When the time comes for it to be restored, I could see being original being important. Right now, it's not quite a classic and it really won't hurt the car to wear aftermarket lca's and panhard. I see it as not hurting anything and being completely reversible. Is this what you are saying is my lack of respect towards thirdgens?

My thinking with the GTO is that I may not want the original engine, tranny, rear end, or suspension pieces. I just don't know at this point. If I decide that I do want to have original pieces, I'll be sure to get a Judge. Don't think that I won't drive it, though. What is the point of a Judge that is not driven? If I want to change up something in the driveline or use tubular suspension pieces, I'll get a GTO (I'm not making a fake GTO ). I'll also drive that. If I want to do something completely different, I'll do that with a different car that had a base model (i.e. Camaro I6). That's not a lack of respect, that's what a car is about.

Anyway, I'll definitely have a talk with my dad and see if this is the right car.

cort351w

Who agrees with Ed?

Ed Maher

Nothing wrong with driving it, some. The key is to know the car WELL so that maintenance and performance work out without having to modify it or hack it. My first 4 or so cars were CCCS and i worked oin some other carbed cars too. I know how easy it is to mess things up. My concern is SOLEY with the utter originality of the car. If it had 50k miles, or was already modded a little or something then might as well use it. But if it has like all the factory connectors in one piece, all original parts, etc, it is something unique. The 84 is the rarest of the 5 spd L69s, the 85 and 86 were much more limited and IROC only. But they still don't seem to be that plentiful. And certainly not many that still have factory hose clamps, etc.

There are so many great low mile thirdgens that make more sense as well. If you don't already know how to rebuild carbs, etc do you really want to learn now, lol You're already familiar with TPI, that really is your best bet. Then everything can be common between cars so when problems crop up, troubleshooting is easier, etc.

cort351w

How come it apparently doesn't matter that the car's rear end isn't stock? I will never even see the stock rear end; it's not like I can swap that back. Is the motor the only thing that matters?

I do like the troubleshooting argument.

DANIELEK

My ex 86 Z28 305 auto, carb, w/peanut cam had almost 250,000 miles on when i sold it.

I bought the car for 3200 CDN( in 1996) and sold it for almost same amount (in 2000) after putting on almost 100,000 miles.

No major problem just little things needed replacing. It had original tranny/engine. It only smoked a little on startup and still had lots of juice left. This was the best investment I have ever made

But then again it is how you maintain it.

Ed Maher

Oh yeah, the rear.... the guy is probably full of it on the rear. The stock rear in that car is a 3.73. While GM did offer a Dana rear as an over the counter bolt in in the late 80s, they were 3.54s only IIRC. Sure it could be swapped to any other gear set, but why would he spend all that money when he already had 3.73s. And if it does have a Dana rear in it, you could sell it for big $$$ as they are very rare and desireable, GM stopped selling them by the early 90s. Getting an original 84 rear set-up won't be nearly as difficult as finding a perfect NOS wiring harness or AIR diverter valve, etc