Hey everyone. I have an 87 Trans AM with a 305 TPI. As of lately, Im gettin very discouraged by this car. It was perfect up until about a week ago. Some of you may have read my post about failing emissions. Well...since then, this is what I have done. I replaced all the EGR equiptment. I retarded the timing a bit. Today it went in and had the CAT replaced. The CO and HC levels are almost non-existant. The NOx levels however are like 500ppm over the limit. SO today, I spent over $650 for this guy to inspect my car, and take off a perfectly good high flow CAT to replace it with a stock one. Im lost at this point. What else could be causing my car to fail emissions??? It runs perfect, throws no codes, doesnt smoke or anything. It runs at a good temperature. Its all stock except for a hypertech chip...could this be causing the problem??? Im really in a bind. She is my daily driver, and I wasnt expecting to have all these problems. I wont get into the split radiator... Please, any help that you all can give me would be GREATLY appreciated, cuz I really need it. Let me know what you all think!! Thanks in advance.
Justin

EGR helps reduce NOx emissions, by removing it you created the problem that caused it to fail.

Hmm, not sure about PA, but in MD, they offer a waiver.

Goes like this, if you spend X amt of dollars according to the yr of your car.

For instance, if I spend $200 on my for new parts, save the receipt, and show that the parts were installed then I can get a waiver, if I've failed before.

OR..

also , in MD, if your car is too low, they will waive you, I realize there different laws , state to state, but just something to check into.

high Nox can be caused by excess carbon on the back of the valves. you can run a cleaner through the engine called run rite. worked for me. i failed emmisions for Nox the first time, then passed after i ran the run rite through my car.

Try adding a quart of methyel hydrate to a full take of gas before the next test.

Put the stock chip back in. Make sure there's a 195 thermostat in the engine and the engine is hot when tested.

$650? I remember reading somewhere that there are laws that prevent you from spending massive amounts of money on getting a car to pass. If you can come up with receipts for a certain amount of money spent bringing the car up to standard, I think you could get an exemption for a year.

Hmm, sort of like I already said about the waiver.

just a thougt

how bout trying adding a gallon of alcohol to a full tank of gas?

I would think rubbing alcohol, even Everclear would do the trick?

Thanks for all this info... Lets see...

I replaced all the EGR stuff. Its all new. Its tested and working as far as I can tell. It actuall lowered my NOx reading from 2700 to 1700 ppm. Good sign, right direction, just not enough.

Yup...I have to spend 150 or more. Which I did this time around...last time around I didnt though. SO I couldnt get that wavier. Problem is, I think that wavier is only good for 30 days?? Im not sure about that, Ill find out tomorrow.

curt86iroc, how badly were you failing the NOx portion of the test??? And all you did was add this stuff and it passed? how much did it bring the reading down..do you remember? Thats def. an idea if it works.

Got the right stat. Its new and works fine. As for the stock chip, I dont have that. The car came with the Hypertech chip in it. If someone confirms that this chip could definetly be hurting my emissions by that much, then ill go buy a new stock chip and toss it in, atleast just for emissions.

Hmm...I never heard that. How exactly does that help me? If it does help pass emissions, what kind of damage does it do to your internals???

Sorry this was so long, but like I said...Im really stuck. My brain is picked. You guys are all very helpful and I know if I keep buggin on here "we'll" figure it out. I dont trust mechanics anymore, then have been wrong so far...and are stealing my money. haha. Keep the ideas coming!!! thanks alot again!
Justin

alcohol burns super clean, so clean that you cant see the flame.

I dont think that adding a gallon would do any damage. Just be sure to get the purest rubbing alcohol you can, get that 100%% stuff.

In jersey you can get a "low mileage vehicle" exception, where they will not put it on a dyno, but do an RPM test instead. They also do not check for NOX in this test.
By using alcohol you are still burning fuel, but it is not omitting the pollutants they test for. Think about it- you use alcohol in lamps that are used indoors, where you breathe the air, so it will not be as harmful to you as gasoline. Your performance will suck, the car wont be able to get out of its own way, and you run the risk of damaging all the "soft" parts in your fuel system. I also dont know what kind of effect it will have on your CAT.
If all you need to do is bring the NOX down, the alcohol won't help you too much there. Flush your engine and then put in some synthetic oil.

I dont know if taking out the Hypertech chip will help,it very well could.Unfortunately I have one on my 90 GTA that I installed,if the application is the same as on my car,the stock chip is still in the computer.The Hypertech chip kinda plugs into the stock chip instead of replacing it.I dont know if it is like that on all years,I dont see why not,but if you open the computer you will see it.I remember it said something in the instructions about removing the chip before taking the car for any kind of service,hope this helps!

Yeah I think the chip in my car is the whole PROM replaced. The newer cars had like a "piggy back" set up like you are saying. Ill definetly check it out though, worth a try. Thanks. I dont know if Im gonna try alcohol just yet, but Im not putting it totally off if just yet either. Ill try anything at this point. Im definetly gonna try to clean the motor out some...with some sort of cleaner. I already ran a bottle of fuel injection cleaner though it, but maybe Ill try something else. Im also having doubts about how well my EGR is actually working at this point. With a new CAT and no change in emissions, maybe the EGR still isnt doin what its supposed to. The chip has me worried because I dont think the car is getting hot enough. And also, although very little, it is messing with my timing. Does anyone know if the A.I.R. equiptment deals with emissions at all...or could effect the test in anyway? Keep the ideas coming!!! Im gettin some good stuff here! Thanks again.
Justin

IIRC the hypertech chips makes the car stay much cooler. And combined with that 195 stat it may be staying in closed loop for awhile. Go to a junk yard or something and try to find a stock EPROM and try again that could very well be the problem.

:hail: WV and its laws (no emmissions)

To find another PROM...doesnt the doner car have to be exact to mine? I mean I know it has to be from a 305 TPI with an auto trans...but does it matter what years as long as its close. And does the rear matter? When I asked the dealership if they could get them they said yeah but they need to know what rear I have. Im not even sure what i have.... Anyway, I think I might just be exept for the year now...since I spent like 700 dollars on it!!!!!!!!!! I better be. If I am, Ill just pick through and figure it out after winter is over. Unless I figure it out sooner... who knows. I wish they made a home emission testing kit...for us wrench heads. So if there is a problem we can know if its fixed before our next test... Someone should make one of those.
Justin

i cant remember exactly how far over the Nox limit i was. like i said, all i did was run the stuff through my car and i passed. it brought it dwon a little over 100 points i believe....though i dont remember exactly..

I thought you said somewhere that your NOX results were the only thing you failed for. You're replacing of the catalytic converter will not help with your problem. It is amazing how people give those things so much credit. To reduce NOX you need to clean your engine, NOT just your fuel system. There's no such thing as a mechanic in a bottle either. Try this before your next test-
Add a quart of kerosene to your oil and run it for five minutes. Drain your oil. Put in five quarts of 100% synthetic oil (viscosity depends on the amount of miles you have). If you think you might be getting some blow-by, use a slightly thicker oil. Retard your timing about -2 degrees below factory specs, especially if you're using an aftermarket chip. Can you control your fuel pressure? If so, drop it down to the minimum requirement. Go to inspection on a cool, rainy day, and disconnect the power to your cooling fan if you think they won't be handling your car too long. Double check your oil making sure it is CRYSTAL CLEAR. Remove your air filter before you get in line. You should have less than a quarter tankfull of sunoco ultra 94 fuel. That way, in the UNLIKELY event that you fail, you can add your four bottles of the cheapest DRY GAS you can find, and go directly back in line, and once you pass, dilute it with a fill up. Diluting it is necessary so you can acuratly tune the car back to it's original settings.
If you live in New Jersey and have a low mileage vehicle, you just wasted all of your time because you could have just gotten an RPM test and been exempt from the NOX test.

92RSfivepointslow... Well I changed the cat under the suggestion of a few people on the boards, and of a few mechanics suggestions. Im not an emissions expert, so I was assuming everyone was giving me half good info... As far as the low miliage thing...yeah that would be nice. I dont live in NJ. I did qualify for the low miliage exemption, but the guy who I took my car to didnt do the exemption. He tested it, failed it, and now its on record with PennDOT. Thats partly how this whole mess started. Plus, this is the first inspection that I had to put the car though, I just bought it 4 months ago. There is something in the rules that says that the low miliage has to be from one owner, when the car switches owners, the low miliage doesnt count. Ive never heard of pouring kerosine into my oil...?? doesnt that do damage? And I know fuel system cleaner wont do any good...I was just saying thats the only thing I ran through my system..... Ill try the kerosine in the oil thing if it works. I want to get a stock PROM and all first. My A/C fan doesnt work, so I could always just use the A/C on the way in...that will heat the motor up quick. Hopefully Im exempt now though for having spent so much money.
Justin

A new converter will help your emissions, as you said it did, but it just doesnt do much for your nox problem. Sorry if I was vague about that. Cats are good, I have plenty of them, meow. lol. But my car is living proof you can pass emissions without a functioning cat. Of course I didnt find this out until after I passed inspection. About the kerosene in the crankcase- if you feel more comfortable spending more and getting less, then just buy a can of "5 minute engine flush". It's kerosene in a handy little can. I was just trying to keep your expenses down since you've already spent a fortune. As far as your alcohol ventures, I reccommended the cheap little white bottles of dry gas because its alcohol but it's safe for your fuel system. I know you can probably get a waiver for now but what happens after it expires? Can you get another one? I think you can ge it to pass, in my opinion. Just trying to help ya out.

Well, my baby is finally back in my possesion. She never did pass emissions. I have a wavier til next year though that makes me alittle happy. But your right, after this time, I dont get a wavier. Next inspection I have to keep payin until its fixed. I plan to fix the emissions before then though... I have time now though. Im just praying my tranny holds out, its givin me grief right now. Last night I changed my radiator, and cleaned her up, so everything seems ok. That new cat is ugly...not as smooth looking as the high flow one that was on there. Oh well...not much I can do now. Thanks for all your help...it was very helpful information. Im sure Ill be back in a few months when I try to tackle this problem again. Hey...good thing is, since they match my inspection date to my registration tags, I have my next test in July..its hot in july Ill be able to keep my engine much warmer than this 40 degree weather. Thanks alot again!
Justin

having same exact problems changed all emissions crap myself and had someone change the cat to high flow, and it still failed i too have spent well over 500.00 to no avail, so i took it to a mechanic and he said there wasn't enough backpressure to open the egr valve???? and said to change the muffler back to a stock. We'll i spent money on that flowmaster and thers noway im gonna take it off so what i did was kinked the tail pipe so that its about 25% closed on both tail pipes, hopefully it will cause the so called "not enough backpressure" problem to go away then ill just put some new tail pipes on till next year. haven't tried it yet cause my oil pump not working as of 12:00 n today.

92 camaro 305
eldebrock headers
flows

I had the exact same issue, Here in california I had to pass smog and failed the first time. 1760 NoX readings and we need 900 to pass on my 1984 Firebird. In a half tank of gas I added one gallon of distilled alchohl<sp> from a local hardware store. I passed Smog after that with a 800 rating.

The Alchohl cools the engines combustion down, and causes less NoX emissions as it was explained to me. Another trick would be to over gap your spark plugs, froma .045 to a .050 in my case.


The NoX is caused by the engine running to hot, least as it was explained to me. Least now I know for the nex time I have to smog my car in california.


Jurrel
1984 Firebird