SlowMaro

ok, ...what would cause this....dist is in right... ...the lil line on the harmonic balancer was on the very top....12 oclock position, ...thats T\dc right??? i put the dist in BOTH ways, messed with EVERYTHING ...still no start, ...new cap, dist, coil, ignition module, plugs and wires.....WHY!!!!!

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

gone through the same crap with my car...
check to make sure your firing order is right and the dist is indeed at no. 1 tdc with the rotor pointing toward the terminal in the cap for the number one plug. After that, disconnect the fuel injectors and crank the engine (no more then 20 sec. a time) to clear out all the fuel and dry the plugs. After youve cleared all the fuel out, reconnect everything and manually advance the dist. while cranking the engine over. Assuming eveything is hooked up right, this should get the engine to fire.

kevinc

In a nutshell, this is why the smart people buy/borrow a reference book before picking up the wrenches. Even a Chilton's is better than nothing.

There should have been a metal tab bolted to your timing cover that hung over the balancer...had a zero and a few numbers on it. When the balancer mark is aligned with that zero, you're at #1 TDC. Usually, #1 TDC is around 2 o'clock when looking at the balancer from the front of the car.

You really need a timing light and that metal timing tab to do this right.

RB83L69

That is #1 TDC; which could be either #1 firing, or #6 firing.

If you have gas shooting out the top of the intake, then it's firing 180° out - you have it attempting to fire #1 when it should be firing #6, and instead, it's firing #1 as the exhaust valve closes and the intake starts to open.

Find #1 compression by taking out the spark plug, having somebody bump the motor until you feel compression, and then turn the motor by hand until the timing mark is up; drop the dist in so that it points just barely to the left of straight ahead; and put the plug wires on with the #1 wire in front just to the driver's side of straight ahead, 18436572 clockwise around the dist.

SlowMaro

zsee, ..i did that, got it on #2 tdc,..and hit the key...NO luck....still kinda spits out the manifold.....but not nearly as bad as if i turn the dist 180......so now what......the whole ignition system is new, ....from plugs to dist. seriously...now what....gas is getting there....iair is there, ...spark is there.....im STUCK....

RB83L69

Get it on #1 FIRING, not just #1 TDC, since there are 2 instances of #1 TDC per engine cycle, but only one of them is firing; make sure the wires are right; it has no choice but to run.

SlowMaro

arg this is aggravating, ...no matter which way i turn the dist, ....no starting.....put it on #1 tdc, ...wont start, ...turn it 180, ...no start....i seriously dont wanna put it in the shop but damn....this is annoying

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

did you stick your finger in the #1 spark plug hole to feel for compression when you turned the motor over to line it up? Forgot to mention it in my earlier post but pull the plug and check to make sure you have compression. Turn the engine over with a breaker bar (in the same way it would turn while running) and with your free hand stick one of your fingers in the spark plug hole and feel for compression to make sure your on the compression stroke. If you feel compression, then teh engine is set up to have the number one cyl. fire. Works every time for me. If the motor is totally flooded the hell out, it wont start no matter how the dist. is turned. Let it sit for a while with the throttle blocked open to help dry it out and put new plugs in and try again later.

SlowMaro

i didnt think it HAD to be on the #1 cyl to fire, ...i figured, if i put the dist in one way, and it didnt work, just spin it around 180 and itd be on....i could be wrong though....correct me if so, ...im horrible with this timing crap.....i took off my valve cover to make sure the timing chain wast broke.....ive heard of them jumping? could this have happened?

RB83L69

No, that's highly unlikely.

Timing is real simple. All it is, is aligning the different parts of the engine so that they do what they're supposed to do as they spin. As each part reaches some point in its travels, some other part is supposed to do something.

Sit down, take a deep breath, and forget everything you think you know about timing the distributor, because whatever you think you know, it's wrong. Come back when you're ready to stop arguing and telling us all about what you're doing that doesn't work (because nobody cares about a bunch of stuff that doesn't work), and you're ready to learn how to do it right.

.............


OK, now that we've got past that.... the first thing you have to do is find #1 firing. Maybe a review of the basics of events inside an engine would help. Remember, you have a 4-stroke engine, so let's think about what the piston and crank are doing as the engine spins. Start at firing, which occurs near TDC. The cylinder fires; the piston will move down in the bore all the way to the bottom, allowing the gas to expand, and converting the heat energy in it into mechanical energy. ½ crank revolution later, the piston will have reached to bottom; somewhere around there, the exhaust valve will open. The piston will begin moving back up again as the crank turns; another ½ revolution later, now were at one full crank revolution from where we started, the piston will again be at TDC. At this point the exhaust stroke ends; the exhaust valve closes; the intake valve begins to open, and the intake stroke begins. The piston passes through TDC and begins to descend in the bore once again, drawing fresh air/fuel mixture into itself. When it reaches the bottom, which by now is 1½ revolutions of the crank from where we started, the intake valve closes; the piston moves upward once again, compressing the mixture. Just as it reaches the top, 2 full crank rotations after the start of the cycle, the spark plug gets a spark, the cylinder fires, and we start all over again.

Got that? If you have any doubts or questions, go back and read it again, draw it on paper, do whatever you have to do to fix in your mind the relationship of each of these events and the movements of the parts that create it.

...............

The cam turns at ½ the rate of the crank. It is the thing that controls the valves. Obviously the valves have to open and close at the right times during the crank's rotation to create their events. That's what the timing gear and chain do: they establish the relationship between where the cam is, and where the crank is.

The distributor is driven off of the cam. It also turns at ½ crank speed, so it makes one rotation while the crank makes 2. In order for the engine to run correctly, the spark must be delivered just as the oiston reaches TDC at teh end of the compression stroke. If it is delivered at any other time, bad things happen.... either it spits back through the intake if the spark happens while the intake valve is open, or it spits through the exhaust if it comes while that valve is open, or it stops the motor dead in its tracks if it occurs too early while the piston is trying to compress the mixture.

"Timing" is establishing the right relationship of the spark event to crank motion. That's all it is.

Now go back out to your engine.

Ignore the timing mark. Take out the #1 spark plug, and remove the distributor. Turn the engine with the starter. Every so often you'll hear "FFFT" from the #1 spark plug hole. That's compression. Now stop spinning it, and instead, have somebody bump it over slowly while you put your finger over the hole; presently you will feel the compression on your finger. Have them keep on bumping it slowly while you look in the hole with a flashlight (no excuses about "it's hard", just do it). You will be able to see the piston. As your helper bumps the motor, you will see the piston approach the top of the cylinder; you can just look in there and see it.

When it gets to the top and the next bump makes it start going back down, have them stop. Go look at the timing mark. Where is it? It should be just past (clockwise as viewed from the front of the engine, i.e. to the driver's side, of the timing tab). If it is, then it's at least somewhat accurate. If it's not, then your balancer has slipped and the mark is useless; and make a little mark on the balancer next to the "0" point on the timing tab, just as a rough reference to where #1 TDC is.

Have you helper bump the engine slowly, one little bump at a time, through almost 2 full turns, until your mark or the timing mark is almost coming onto the very leading edge of the timing tab. Now look down into the distributor hole; you'll see what looks like a large slot-drive screw head; that's the oil pump drive rod. Using a large screwdriver, rotate it until the slot is about 30° away from straight ahead, pointing left front to right rear.

Now hold the distributor above the hole, in exactly the orientation it's supposed to go in. Make sure its gasket is on it. Turn the rotor until it points straight to the driver's side, then turn it to where it's about ¼ of the way from there, toward straight ahead. Drop the distributor in the hole. You may have to wiggle the shaft a bit to get it to line up with the cam gear teeth. Once they line up, the dist should drop in, and the shaft will rotate clockwise as it drops; when it's nearly all the way in, it should engage the oil pump drive rod, and drop all the way to where it's up against the intake. When it's all the way down, the rotor should have rotated to where it's about ¾ of the way from straight to the drivers side, toward straight to the front. Put the hold-down bolt in, and tighten it until you can just barely turn the dist.

Pull up on the shaft, and hold it turned as hard as you can counter-clockwise against the gear. Rotate the dist body a little ways CW; then slowly rotate it back CCW as you hold the shaft, until the little teeth on the star wheel line up with the ones on the pickup coil.

Put the #1 plug back in, and hook up all the wires to the dist; #1 will be the one just to the driver's side of straight ahead, #8 will be the one just to the pass side of straight ahead, the #4 will be next, etc; 18436572. Make sure they're in the right order. Once they are, reach in the window and fire the car up; because if you followed the instructions exactly, it will fire up instantly. Guaranteed. The timing will be within a couple of degrees of the factory setting.

kevinc

RB is far more patient than I am, I already gave up on this dude.

SlowMaro

ok....intake valve supposed to be open or closed? intake valve on the #1 cyl is the second one right? not the first... and do i turn the oil pump drive shaft to the left if im facing the engine???*pointing towards #8 or #1 on the dist cap* bump the engine over two full turns meaning the line on the balancer passes 0 once then comes back to zero....*** i hate timing....

RB83L69

At #1 firing, both #1 valves are closed. Yes, the 2nd one back on the driver's side is the #1 intake. As you watch the valves while turning the motor, you'll see the #1 intake open, then close ( which will occur at just about #1 BDC); then as you keep turning the crank from there, the piston will come back up in the bore, and just before the next time it reaches the top right after the #1 intake has closed, is #1 firing. #1 should not fire while any #1 valves are open. If you see either #1 valve open, you are not at #1 firing.

Doesn't matter which way you turn the pump shaft to get it to where it belongs. All you need to do is make sure it goes from driver's side front to pass side rear, about 30° away from straight front to rear.

2 full turns: if the marks are lining up, turn it until the marks come up again (one full turn) then turn it some more until the marks go away and line up a second time (2 full turns).

This really isn't that hard... put out of your mind the possibility of it being hard, and it will become easy all by itself. "Hard" is all in your mind. Is brain surgery "hard"? Not to a brain surgeon. Is timing a motor hard? No harder than brain surgery. Maybe even easier. Probably down on a level with rocket science.

You can do it.

SlowMaro

im conviced *as well as everyone else" that im completly retarded, or at least significantly slower than most....because i had the timing dead on after the cam shaft....took it out for some reason, ...put it back in the same exact way, ..boom, ...all is screwed....thanks for the help so far though.....ill try again in a bit.....

SlowMaro

ok so....thank you people once again for another horrific journey under the hood of a third gen.....and thank you for breaking it down to me like i was a third grader RB lol, ...without THAT, ...--complete step by step instructions-- i wouldnt have been able to get it CRANKED!!! yes!! heh!! so ...what did i learn?? DONT TOUCh the @$%#ING distributor!!!! EVER!!! heh.....so yeah....ty once again, i cant thank yall enough if you ever need help on setting the impedence pevel on sub's or anything ...anything dealing with the stereo lol.....i can do that....any and everything dealing with that and alarms, neons, anything electrical basicly ....CEPT the timing.......that whole post ordeal needs to be saved...for future reference for dumb people like me to read...

RB83L69

So.... does it... like ... run?

When you reached in the window, did it crank the first time?

SlowMaro

no, took about 3 tries making sure it was on #1 TDC....runs now though.....and i still have my prior problem....it runs FINE, ..then i shut the engine off, ...crank it back up, ...runs like crap....without touching anything...itll just run like crap...--sighs-- any ideas? we KNOW its nothing to do with the ignition system...i messed around and unplugged a hose leading to the manifold and alot of are sucked into the manifold......its the part behind the TBI , ...looks like a solid metal pcv valve, ...looks like an L ...one hose goes from that to a splitter, that two more hose's one leading to the canister directly heind the drivers side headlights --big canister-- and the other hose goes into a plastice tube/sleeve..along the firewall, and into a WIRE HARNESS, looks like the hose is made into it...so what my question is....is this line supposed to have vaccume pressure on it?? or do i have some hoses connected wrong? or ANY other reason why itd run fine, then when i shut it off, and crank it again, ...runs like crap...

Vader

Actually, I'd have teh opposite opinion. Touch it so much and so often that you can do it in your sleep.

Note to self: Maybe my mom was right, and that's why I'm going blind...

kevinc

One last time and then I'll shut up...timing light. You have the dist in close enough to start the engine, but no way you stabbed it right on 6deg BTDC or whatever the spec is (should be on that sticker near your radiator shroud).

While you car's warm, the ECM is managing spark advance. When you restart it, the ECM stays in open loop until temp and timer conditions (60+ sec in some cases) are met...during which time electronic spark control is not active.

It sounds like your timing is slightly retarded, thus while the ECM is in open loop at operating temp (as in a hot restart) it will run poorly.

That other vacuum hose sounds like your cabin climate controls feed...when you move the selector between vent and defroster, do you hear the hiss and does the airflow from the vent outlets change accordingly?

Now go get a timing light, disconnect your ESC connector, and set your distributor right. You'll be amazed at the difference I guarantee.