ok well i have a 87 formula, ive always loved carbs and how easy they are to tune, i dont know much abot TPI and i dont really have the cash right now to get everything i want for it. so what do you all think, this is going on a 87 LB9 305 roller block. im puttin in a LT1 cam and was thinking of port/polishing the heads and like 75hp of n20

carb or TPI

 

Hmm, TPI.. only rednecks use carbs. :lala:

-Joe

 

your telling him tpi because he would be a ******* if he had a carb? lol......

fuel injection is awsome when right.. but it can be a pain to work with..

i recently built a 383 for my trans am.. all the goodies including a holley stealth ram...........

well i didn't have the patince to get into tuning myself and the only way you would really get max power is to dyno tune (see jmatlock88) in which you can see the actual results.....

now where i live it's hard to find a good dyno close that has someone that can burn a chip for it, yes i could have ordered one but it still wouldn't have been perfect like a dyno tune would have came... so i found it better to go to carb....

i like carbs for the simplicity... if it dosen't run then you know it's the carb or the dist....... no fuel or no spark..... no chasing little sensors or chasing computer codes that just put you in the general area of the problem.... thus it can add alot of headaches and alot of cash!

don't get me wrong.. when fi is right it's the best thing there is.. hands down! but getting there is or can be very diffucult....

usually you can find a dyno that has someone that tunes carbs there.. hell i know if i can find one where i live then i know you can.....

well i have ran my mouth long enough.... good luck and i hope it works out for ya!

 

Well.. at least we know you can read. :claps:

-Joe

 

 

i'm not going to sink to his level and make a snide comment over a simple question a feller asked.....

it's just not worth it..... especially when your suppose to awnser here to try and help someone..... not call them names and act like a 2 year old... thats just crazy...

 

I say carb for power... IT'S NOT A LIE, and TPI/TBI for efficiency and accuracy... IT'S NOT A LIE EITHER. either way... you can make BOTH really really haul ***, WHEN TUNED CORRECTLY... I actually use a TBI (I know ... don't say anything).. I have an edelbrock EGR/TBI performer manifold with the upgraded injectors/adjustable fuel pressure reg... and the 1 inch TBI spacer... I run about 315 HP and get 16/24 Miles PER gallon... with a 305. ******* THAT
:rockon:

 

315HP, unless you have a bunch more mosts like heads, cam, and exhaust, i doubt that you are pushing that much horsepower, especially on a 305. Is that dyno or track proven power, or do you just think your car is that fast? Don't mean to flame, but there are too many people on the boards that BS.

 

It's got heads/cam/headers/pistons/cat-back/pulleys/and obviously the intake... thanks for checking though.... It's DYNO proven.. It dynoed at 309 HP and I've done a few little things since. You should see my sucker fly. :rockon:

 

BTW fellers, I was joking.

There is a guy on the CC website who brought up the TPI vs Carb thing, I was spoofing him.

If Shean (Squeeks) had read this post before you asshats got all in a tizzy he would have gotten a laugh out of it Im sure.

Oh well, Im gonna go drive my 4th gen.

(PS. I mentioned that because all 4th gen owners are big ****** and deserve to die. )

-Joe

 

I don't understand why everyone is SO sceptical about 305's.. they usually react to mods better (LESS ENGINE, MORE UPGRADE OF POWER) (especially if the mod is designed for a 350) If you have a set of heads that FLOW, a cam to get them there and an exhaust system that opens the engine... all you need is a good and effective fuel supply. I just happen to have picked a VERY GOOD COMBINATION of stuff.. the only problem with 305's is that you can only add SO MUCH power... because it's a 2-bolt you can't go above about 400 w/o a girdle.. THINK ABOUT IT... LESS CHAMBER/COMBUSTION AREA, with the same amount of GAS/AIR and the same exhaust system EQUALS more compression which EQUALS more power:rockon:

 

Dear Friends,

Well, since only Hillbillies use Carbs, I guess you can call me a Hickory-Smoked Hillbilly. He he he. My 1984 Z28 has a modified 350 engine with an Edelbrock 4bbl.


I love 305's too though. People don't give enough credit to the 305 engines.



I also have owned a 1986 IROC, with the TPI. I really was impressed with the torque that the TPI generated. Therefore, I believe that Tuned Port injection is great. Carbs are great too- and have potential to be tuned and matched with mored radical camshafts. Its all good!

 

My first camaro was a 83 with LG4 engine (carb) and now I have a 92 Z28 (TPI). Be honest with you, I love the TPI but then again I went from a 83 to 92...big jump.

 

You think the 305's get a hard time, you need to try a 307. My 84 Cutlass has a slightly modded one, and when I clock off a (now mid 8's in the 1/8) several people ask me if it's a 305 or 350, and when I say 307, they basically give me the "oohh, that's nice " treatment. anyway...

I had both EFI and carb cars.
Cutlass-carb 307
Caprice-LT1
Cavalier-3.1 MPFI
IROC-TPI to carb swap still going
Caravan-3.3EFI

The Caprice is a work in progress, but for as big as it is that LT1 hauls ***.Tuning and parts are a bit $$$

Cavalier is getting a modded 3.8 supercharger and staying fuel injected. Very expensive. Very hard to tune.

Caravan is daily driver and family cruiser(with 3 kids, need a van)Not messing with it my wife will kick my *** if I do!

Cutlass has been a 10 year project, gone about as far as I think it can go. Not real expensive(about $3000 invested) easy tuning.

IROC was TPIL98. Going carb with Vortec heads and LT4 Hotcam. The car went high 8's in the 1/8 with the TPI, hoping to get a bit lower with the new setup. Already the carb setup looks like a breeze compared to the TPI.

Oh and I'm in Kentucky so I guess I qualify for the ******* award also!

 

Ok, so I guess you guys dont read so well? Did you notice I replied and said I was joking?

Cause uhh, yeah, if you reeeeeeead my explanation above, perhaps you would understand?

FYI.. its the 10th post down.. count em out on your fingers and youll find it.. like a treasure hunt at the local special ed school.

-Joe

 

heh, cant you tell theyre joking too? anyway, im putting my vote in for using a carb. they are much simpler and are cheaper to work with. either route you go, you can make it work fine.

 

If I wasn't joking about the ******* thing I would have said "Bite me Yankee!"

To keep it tech- I voted carb!

 

Where you been hidin at

When I saw your first reply, I had to relook at the name, you sounded like a jerk

 

He is a jerk.

A big mean 4th Gen driving jerk.

 

I would vote carb. I have to keep fuel injection because that is the law in my state. However, if I had a carb I would be a whole lot farther in my quest for mods and power. Instead I have had to spend alot of time and money repairing my TPI setup. I have had to replace my coil my ECU my MAF sensor and a couple other minor things. Go carb if you can.

 

Whoa Roshambo is still here. Do you regret selling the TA yet?

 

For the drag strip, carb is the way to go, especially if on a budget.
For the street, a heavy breathing TPI kicks butt.

 

Yeah, Im here.. just dont post much. Surprised you guys still remember me...

No, dont regret selling it ONE bit... go from 180hp to 300'ish for $4500? Yeah.. Im sad.

Although eventually Id like to get a 3rdgen and hillbilly it with a carb for a 2nd car.

-Joe

 

I'm thinking about hillbillying my 87 with a carb, vortecs and a big roller cam. But I have one question for 88iroc1le, how in the hell did you get an olds 307 to run mid 8's in the 1/8? I had an 86 cutlass with a 307 and 3.08's in the rear and *** it was slow. (stock)

 

That is not be completely true. Big ****** cannot fit inside a FordGen 'F' car. I tried. That's why I have two Impslas. There's more driver room in a 'Y' car than the later 'F' cars. I was a little disappointed when I hopped in to take one for a test drive. If I didn't have to point my toes to get them under the dash of a '96 T/A, I'd probably be driving one now...

 

For ease of use and ease on the pocket I don't see how the carb can be beat. If not having large amounts of money to spend on dyno tunes, bigger injectors, TBs, runners, ect...... makes me a red neck then so be it. And ye I read the previous post. I know it's a joke.

You know we could invent a new type of tuning. Actually it is already invented just give it a name. Instead of DYNO tuning we could call it ******* TUNING. In highschool I used seat of the pants with timing adjustments and metering rod changes. Now I am a sophisticated red neck and use a G-tech. When I first made the TPI to carb swap with my new engine I was only able to net a 14.8 at around 97 mph at the strip. I bought a g-tech off ebay for 60 bucks that backed up my high 14 to low 15 dissapointment. But after several months of tuning, adding a performer RPM manifold and replacing a spark plug that wasn't sealing for some reason, I have been able to consistently run low 14s (best was a 14.1 @108mph) ye I know the g-tech is way off on mph. So the carb alows me to be a broke ******* and make low buck tuning changes and make sure they are working.

I think you can find better deals on Nitrous set-ups with the carb also. They are just more plentiful and simplier in design than the FI set-ups.

 

How tall are you.?

I'm 6'3" and 260 lbs and test drove a 95 TA and fit good. I thought that there was as much room as a third gen.

 

I don't know about that. It seams like the 4th gen's windshield is a lot closer to your head when your driving. It makes me clostraphobic. No way that I spelled that right.

 

I vote carb if you don't have the parts for either setup yet. Here's an interesting thread to read:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&highlight=EFI

Carbs are not so bad. The fastest sportbikes in the world still come with carbs on them, except I think Ducati and BMW.

If it's gonna be a naturally aspirated car, there's nothing wrong with a carb. Plus, if your new to working on cars, carbs are a cheap toy to tinker with, as well as a very forgiving medium of fuel delivery.

 

Modded heads, an Edelcrock cam with .455/465 lift. Holley 700 with a GM single plane from SDPC. TH-350 with shift kit, 4.56 gearing and M.T Drag E.T's. Oh, and a lot of tuning on the suspension.

 

Call me a hillbilly if you want, but my factory 4bbl (L69) can has spanked TBI and TPI cars before.

 

Carbs are for Hillbilly's? I don't think so. If they are so "old tech" then why are they still using them in the NHRA and NASCAR? NASCAR is one of the vanguards of the automotive world and they are still running carbs. I might be stuck in the past, but I would much rather have a carb than fuel injection. Break down in the middle of the sticks at night with jut a flashlight and a few tools and you can get the carbed car going again. I doubt everyone cruises around with their laptops and PROM burning equipment all the time. Carbs are easy to tune and are cheaper. TPI can get expensive and is reluctant to rev past 5500 rpms. In my "opinion" carbs are just better.

 

I spent a few moments looking over the posts in this thread, trying to find one that just screams out at me. But there is too many to choose from. Good work!

Some guys at the track try this argument with me.
"Fuel infection". When you start explaining to them how you can manage fuel and timing at different rpm vs load points, they shudder and realize your well over their head.

Then again, these guys tune motors by "ear". If you showed them even idle data from a datalogger they would have a stroke on the spot.

Float get stuck? Points foul?? gimme a break..

You have absolutely no idea what your talking about. The whole idea of "fuel injection" is precise and constant calculations using data from atmosphere, air temp, motor temp, etc. No, we don't drive around with our laptops and PROM equipment all the time. Once it works, it works.

Simply say "I dont understand how fuel injection works, so I prefer a carb. It runs good enough for me." rather than trying to
proclaim supriority through ignorance.


-- Joe

 

I refuse to bother with TPI or TBI. Both of those old stock systems, and even more so the really old crude TBI called "Crossfire", are not suited to any sort of true performance use. Each has its place in stock or lightly modded street cars, but is not capable of competing even in Holley 750 horsepower territory, let alone where you get into real race stuff.

Fuel injection in general, even computer-controlled fuel injection, is a different matter. With the right package of sensors, ECM, and intake, virtually any motor can run well with fuel injection, as long as the system doesn't impose flow or RPM limits as severe as the stock systems that came in these cars; and it could probably be made to outperform any carb.

If I were asked what fuel injection system I would consider to be ideal for this chassis, I'd go for a MiniRam, second choice would be a Stealth Ram. In some other chassis with hood clearance I might go with the Accel Pro Ram. In no case would I dink around with TPI or TBI. Until I decide to bite off on converting my car to one of the above FI systems, it will remain carbed.... I have no interest in nutting it by putting any of the particular FI systems that came in these cars on it.

 

If we're talking straight-out hardware, yeah TPI, TBI are both restrictive in terms of airflow in the stock form.

If we're talking electronics, software to be specific I don't think holley has _anything_ over the GM stuff.

What I may do eventually is run a holley intake/throttle body in place of my aftermarket TPI stuff, but i'd never in a million years run the holley software. That would be going backwards.

-- Joe

 

A Holley 750 doesn't need software. It's a carb.

I've never worked with the Holley FI control software, so I'm not qualified to comment on it. The only ones I've dealt with at all are GM, Haltech, Accel, & Speed Pro; and the latter 2 only very slightly.

I probably should have been more specific toward the original question. If I had a TPI car, I would not replace the TPI with a carb, if I intended to drive it on the street. But that doesn't mean that I'm pro-carb or anti FI. I also would not spend a dime on anything for a TPI that I couldn't take back off and transfer over to a performance-oriented FI system, which also doesn't mean that I'm anti-FI. Since TPI is not, and is not capable of becoming, a high-performance injection system, I would choose to ditch it and put something on my motor that doesn't deliberately defeat high-RPM operation by its inherent design. This of course assumes that my loacl emissions regulations would allow me install a performance FI system, instead of the low-RPM optimized, low-performance oriented TPI system.

 

I think we;re saying the same thing.. I thought you were refering to Holleys FI stuff vs GM's..

Yes, TPI intake = no good.. The only reason I'm runnin so well (other than tuning) is the blower, which defeats the whole theory behind ltr's anyhow.

Look at edelbrocks victor setup, with the 1000, or 1600cfm throttle body.. Now thats go-fast fi.

-- Joe

 

I could not agree more. Ditching the TPI was the best thing that ever happened to my car. As far as the original thread, if its carb vs. TPI, definitly go carb. However, carb vs. good-flowing FI (read MiniRam/HSR/Pro-Ram, etc) is a different story all together.

 

Then again the argument can be made that carbs can be just as efficent as a FI setup. My Cutlass before I went and worked on it was great on gas, almost better than my 3.1 Cavalier. It's all in the tuning. I have both and I say I still prefer to work on a carb than an ECM. ECM can fry, carb can be fixed without a laptop, UPS, and solder.

 

So can the thing sitting infront of you.. So where would you like us to ship the typewriter?

-- Joe

 

The main reason people still use carbs is because they are cheaper and you can get the same performance as fuel injection with them. Not everyone knows how to work on computer controled cars, myself included, so for those people the carb is king. It is easy as hell to tune and you dont have to worry about getting a new "chip" when you start modding your engine again.

 

Cheaper, hell yeah. Same performance? Still open to gross debate. I think once you realize how much is tunable with efi, you'd get a better idea of how much your missing. Hell, can you tell me your a/f ratio before and after you shifted?

Anyway.. This is pointless.. Use what you like, and have fun. Thats what its all about right??

-- Joe

 

This "thing" has a warranty. Does your custom PROM?

 

Yep, me.

-- Joe

 

Yup.
http://w1.601.telia.com/~u60113744/s...dl/winaldl.htm

 

Efi systems are IMO too much information. Why on earth am I gonna need to know he A/F ratio before and after shifting? Carbs work just as good in not better that EFI and do it for a fraction of the price. Why on earth would someone pay that much more for the same thing?

 

Wow, i'm impressed.

You'll want to know what your A/F ratio is everywhere, especially
around shift points, so you can adjust your mixture to compensate. Leaning out or richening out right before or after a shift can be deadly.


Absolutely not! Honda, Suzuki, and Kawasaki, bmw, ducati are all
fuel injected, and ARE the fastest. My CBR954RR for example (2002).

Like I said, use what you want. But be realistic about what your saying..


-- Joe

 

Oh yeah? When did they all switch over? Must have been within the last few years, I was not aware of that.

 

Either 96 or 98 was the last year for most of the carb applications. The low end stuff like katana, gs500s, and things like that still get carbs but the sportbikes, superbikes are all fuel injected.

-- Joe

 

I think both carb and tpi have their place on the street, but its my opinion that the tpi is just king over carb when it comes to daily driving. the throttle response, drivability, cold starts, and fuel economy is outstanding.

I read somwhere that holley carbs ( i think it was an SAE designs carb book...) have over 144 different adjustments. When you get into the "real" insides of a holley you will find it can be just as complicated as a GM Ecm when it comes to getting things just right. Thats my experience anyways, slapping jets and idle adjustments around is easy enough though.

TPI seems to be a bit more expensive to upkeep and work on to me though. i just paid $38 for a knock sensor and $75 for a MAF sensor for my TPI in piecing together. i could have bought a used holley off ebay for that and been done with it... but i want TPI for my daily driven street car. thats my personal choice.