ahh my dad was making 80k a year when he got the Z... he didnt like the vette's styling at the time and always wanted a camaro. He liked the great torque and power it had for daily driving.. I got my first taste when i was 3 and then when i turned 16 it was the fastest car out of all my friends. I like the looks, the color, and the feel of the car. Its a great car to just cruse around with.

 

Let me just put in my .02 about this bs you guys are speaking. im not gonna start flamming on you guys but truth is im sick and tired of the

when i first came to this site i was like wow a lot of people who love these cars and a bunch of people i can actually look up to and learn things from. now after reading this post im about to throw the towel in and just say that i misunderstood what this site was all about.

we all have bad days when nothing is good enough for us and at times i admit i too let my frustration about car problems get the best of me but truth is i dont like the way things have been going on around here. i think its either time you guys man up and stop your b!tch!n or sell your cars leave the site and move on. you seem like a bunch a pu$$y a$$ girls crying about how nancy got the better barbie.

come on guys i love my car and i know each and everyone of you know that for the price and the quality you cant get a better deal under 10 grand. if u dont like your cars get rid of them i know a ton of people who would love to have some of your cars and would be damn sure more proud of them than you are.

carb vs. tpi------- why have a war over that. personally i think either one has its place somewhere.

just guys dont be dicks come back to being the cool role models that i thought you were when i came here. if you arent gonna stop complaining i personally think i will just leave the site and never come back. things have gone too far and before something stupid happens just drop it

 

The Corvette is an overpriced 2-seater. The Camaro was a musclecar from the begining, the Corvette wasn't. Many people just like the Camaro better. Alot of people. Theres a good amount of people who run low 14's with stock L98s. Say they don't to BM92Z28 who ran a 14.1 stock, or a dude whos name I can't recall on here that ran a 14.20 with an 87 with just advanced timing. Theres alot more than that too, just look around, do a search, or make a post.

 

:sillylol: Funny, I wouldn't let it get to you Kevs, I find it kind of amusing listening to car owners bicker about some of this stuff. Yeah its a bit silly sometimes whether stock L98's were pulling high 14's or low 14's stock (personally all the road test I read on these done by Car and Track Motor Trend and the like had these cars between 14.8 and 15.4 depending on model I.E. GTA or IROC etc.) I don't see the point times will vary by track, temperature, altitude, skill of driver, wind direction, etc etc etc. So whats the point of arguing wether you have personally witnessed it or not. I enjoyed some of the interesting discussion of what killed the F-Body, Like TPI killed the F-body that was fun. I find it an interesting compromise between all the great tech stuff you can read and find in this sight. As long as we can all agree that we won't all agree all the time and keep it friendly I got no problem with the verbal jousting!!

 

The corvette is the best performance for your buck car in the world, Nothing that can compete with the vette from cornering, to acceleration, to stopping, is even close in price. It is a two seater however can't argue with that reality.

 

I love my car.. im staying right here!!

Quote:

you seem like a bunch a pu$$y a$$ girls crying about how nancy got the better barbie.

My mom's name is nancy and i take great offense to that

Quote:

come on guys i love my car and i know each and everyone of you know that for the price and the quality you cant get a better deal under 10 grand.

umm.. my dad paid 16,800 for the Z... (read why in above post)

Quote:

just guys dont be dicks come back to being the cool role models that i thought you were when i came here. if you arent gonna stop complaining i personally think i will just leave the site and never come back. things have gone too far and before something stupid happens just drop it

Why do people say there gunna leave this site? cause of one little fight over some guy who brought up some crazy idea? Look, sometimes its good to let stuff out of our system. Its good to have fights just die out on there own. Did tpi kill the fbody, no it didnt. Could the lack of 4th gens style, apperance, 4th gen style,V6 sales, 4th gen style, pricing, overpriced name plates (SS), 4th gen style, politics, the dislike and discomfort America has for Canada kill it... maybe... especialy on that last one... dam canucs, but i can tell you that TPI did not kill fbodies.... ricers killed fbodies... so next time you see a canadian *****.... give them the finger and show them you care that they killed a great car.

 

all i gotta say now about this post is its



and to quote all you whiners out there
" Mommy, John Stole My Camaro Pride"


come on boys lets go to the store and get some ice cream and cake so we can celebrate your little whining party

 

It is, but the price is too much for the quality of the car, ask some of the Corvette guys.

You can blame GM for there being not F-Body more than you can any1 else. The idiot managers that got replaced messed up on the contract and then just left the cars like it didn't matter. That 4th Gen body/int. style never should have made it to the public or kept that way either.

 

TPI should have been put on trucks. It (in the LTR form) has no business on a performance car. Don't worry guys, when I was stuck with it...I tried to make the best of it and even defend it at times.....then times got better and I purchased a 2001 WS6 6 speed. Wow, now there's where it's at. My STOCK Ram Air would blister my 86 IROC that had a 99 model 350 with an LT4 cam, vortec heads, vortec TPI system, Full SLP exhaust including 1 3/4" Headers, SLP runners, ported plenum, LT1 injectors, T56, 3.73 posi, underdrive pulleys, and no smog, and the free ram air mod! BLISTER it. It felt good at the bottom but ran out of steam quick. It would get a jump on the ram air out of the hole but 2nd in the WS6 ended that problem. And in 3rd gear I was eating it's lunch. 4th gear come and I was nibbling on it's breakfast.

btw RB: did you ever get those seats in?

 

Well, I'm not repeating myself. I don't know if the other guys want to. You DO realize that you are comparing brand new technology (LS1) against TPI right?! You'd expect it to get better since it's a system that was designed 14 years after TPI. For low-mid RPM power and light to light racing, pretty much nothing compares to TPI with its big block TQ and feel.

 

*smacks gas can out of enigma's hands*

ahh ok tpi killed the fbody... should of stuck with CFI i guess...

 

Yes in fact I did get them installed that same night, thank you. They went right in, no problems, match my interior fairly well even; the carpet on the back of the rear is the same color as mine was in 83.

Will someone please let me know when anybody figures out how TPI is better than any other FI systems (with the possible exception of TBI variants) in any way, or even how it's better than a carb for power. I've been kind of waiting for almost 20 years to hear this. It underwhelmed me the minute it hit the street, and nothing that has happened between then and now has really changed that, I'm still underwhelmed and think it should have had about as long of a production run as CFI (2 years) before they got something appropriate designed to replace it. I've said my say about it, now it's been kind of fun watching all these other people argue about it.

 

I know you just are looking to argue, and live for it, but.
TPI has several things over the FI systems that came out before it and over carbs.
1) more torque (this is what actually moves your car)
2) Better fuel economy (remember the mandates on fuel economy?)
3) Easier to pass the emissions standards of the day (you know, that stuff enacted by the EPA)
4) better control and reporting for the engine.


And by this logic the carb should have been produced for a year or less, because it is less efficent than FI.

Economics, GM had to pay a vast amount of money for R&D and tooling for that injection system, they felt they needed to recoup some of that money I guess.
Who had a better injection system during the time of TPI? Nobody.

Like I said, You just want to argue. I have been underwhelmed by your arguements against TPI and your total lack constructive input. If TPI was so horrible and you think "they" should have left it behind long ago, then why didn't you design and build something better?
Hind sight is 20/20. Its easy to say the older things are crap when newer and better is here and designed by someone else with no effort on your part.
Typical.

 

good call Morley..

rb, you get the..

 

You and the other TPI lovers and apologists just don't seem to "get it".

GM also had however much money tied up in CFI; it didn't take them very long to drop it from their product line. TPI's product cycle should have been similar. Granted it's a whole lot better than CFI could ever be; but it still has serious design shortcomings for performance use.

Designing an intake tract for FI is no different than designing it for a carb, in most respects. You look for high flow, with ports of a shpe such that velocity remains high even at low flows, by making the flow hug a wall or soemthing. This isn't rocket science here. It doesn't require re-inventing the wheel into a triangle, which is essentially what TPI is. Look for example at the MiniRam, which came out not all that long after TPI did, and works one hell of alot better. It doesn't take a left turn down the dirt road of "tuning" these little bitty runners fir a low-RPM torque peak; it's just a straight-ahead, simple, intake. It gives up very little torque compared to TPI, less than 10% at the peak, in exchange for at least 50% more flow capacity. Once it had become obvious how limiting those 180° drinking-straws were, and GM had got its R&D team all up to speed on port FI, they shouldn't have continued to produce that system. Why didn't GM just buy the R&D from TPIS for their clearly superior MiniRam product? I'll never know.

We all have our opinions and prejudices. Some of us like to go fast. Some others of us like TPI. I can't understand why. Maybe I'm just such a geezer, or I'm too stupid, or something. I don't now what it is. I go to the car store, I test drive the car, it sucks. Yet the very thing that makes it suck stays in production for 8 years while technology marches on past. I think there's something wrong with that. I see reasons for liking it given, like "it looks good". Well I don't know about yours, but my engine is invisible when viewed through my rear bumper. The things that work good, are the ones that look good to me. Flash and chrome and ribbed cast aluminum and tubes going everywhere don't "do it" for me. I don't give a rat's hindquarters what it "looks" like past a certain point, I want it to work. TPI fails by that standard. It's not faster than a carb, it's not more efficient than a short-runner system, and it doesn't give lower emissions than the systems developed later that should have been developed sooner. In short, there's no feature that makes it superior, or even equal, to an actual performance-oriented one.

The guy asked why his TPI car is slow. The short answer is, there's a real good reason... it has TPI on its motor. Lots of people here are trying to deal with the same issue, subject to their particular situations. Ignoring or excusing its shortcomings is about the best way I can think of to stay slow. Understanding how it works, namely the acoustic effect that it's designed around, is the best way to get a handle on why it does what it does both good and bad.

 

RB, a few points.

First, RE the miniram and why GM didn't buy the design from TPIS. Fun Fact (rumour) of the day. Uncle Miles (Cottrell, founder TPIS) originally worked for GM and the last project he was associated with was.....development of the LT1. Rumour has it, he STOLE the LT1 design for the miniram. Since it's just an intake and not a whole new engine, obviously his time to market beat the LT1 engine. Now i've never actually researched this as fact, but i've heard it a few times over the years from semi-reputable sources.

Now why didn't GM bring the LT1 intake to the SBC before the 92 vette/ 4th gen. Probably because it was way cost prohibitive to go through qualifying the new intake on another engine for emmisions / mileage.


Second, RE TPI being better than anything. It's not. Nobody with a brain is claiming TPI is a great intake design. Everything about it sucks. Long runners and their resonance tuning is a joke. All the transitions are shaped wrong. Entry into the head is abysmal.

BUT, even with all those shortcomings, it's simply NOT THAT BAD. You act like TPI cars are all a lot slower than they should be. I guess my convertible would be soooo much faster if i slapped a carb on it right , i mean, low 14s out of a stock 305 sucks right. And stock long block L98s running way into the 13s is a mirage too right? And LTR combos in the 11s is all a dream right?

Last time i went to the track i was talking to a kid with an 85 IROC that he just slapped a basic/mild 350 in. Stock smogger heads, the whole 9. Stock TPI, stock computer, etc. No clue what a PROM is, etc. Didn't look too bad off running 13.5 @ 101. Sure wouldn't have expected much more out of it even with a carb.


So basically, i just don't understand your rag RB. There are quick TPI cars out there whether you accept it or not. Can you make a faster car without a long runner intake. Sure, easily, especially the faster you're talking. I mean, if you only want a 13 second car, getting there with TPI is gravy, your money would be better spent elsewhere than reinventing the intake. A stock TPI will go 100mph just fine. And while not flying, 100mph is respectable enough to at least not be considered 'slow' if you ask me. At least not when you're talking about stockish cars. And modified long runner cars can go 110 or so. Of course once you get to that point, you are definitely running into the intake as a restriction, but it still does it. For reference on this look at Traxion or Sweezn87. Both went 12s at almost 110 with modified long runner setups. both picked up only about 3mph by switching to so called vastly superior miniram / converted carb intakes.

 

If the original poster really has a Firebird (and not a Mustang - lol),, it is not slow because of the TPI. Assuming the short block is in good condition, with tweaks and tricks the 350 TPI cars are EASILY capable of 13 second quarter miles,,, also assuming the now old electronics are in proper working condition. The problem with a 12+ year old car is unless you were the original owner or know them well,,, you really don’t know what’s going on with the car (or if it now has a 8.5:1 Goodwrench “truck” engine,, or a 8:1 267). Do a leakdown compression test to make sure the short block is sound and if it is,,, get a scanner to diagnosis any electrical problems you may have. Too often people throw a lot of money at a car whose short block or electronics are shot,,, then wonder why the car is still slow.

 

so your carbed 305 with a 5-speed took all kinds of tpi 350 3rd gens? not to call you out but, yours was a lot faster than the ones around here. I raced a few when I was all stock no flowmaster or k&n chip nothing. (88 firebird formula 305 tpi auto 3.23 rear drum t-tops, the only things my car came with that may help at all if any was the aluminum spare and the aluminum drive shaft) of coure there was ****ty drivers from time to time but, at best they could get me through most of first and then I would take them by a good car to car and a half in to third. and they were pretty decent shape cars ran and sounded fine. I took a few 350 tpi cars but, they always would catch up and win in the end.

 

Now, it's my turn for my take on this. 15+yrs on similar (TPI) cars won't exactly yield similar or even close to similar results depending on the cars history. That's why it's possible fo a L69 to beat a vette, which probably had 4 spark plug wires completely burnt through. Or maybe that's how certain 350's get spanked by 5.0's, maybe because there thermostat stuck shut or other little ****ty problem like that. These f-bods weren't exactly the most reliable cars in their day, but when they are/were running right I'd don't remember ever riding in my dads new GTA in 89 and ever getting beat by one of those 5.slows. The only reason you didn't see a lot of l98s running mid to low 14's stock was because of that tuned-port torque, baby! I remember how that stock 88 GTA would just roast them from a stop or at the track. When the track was prepped good my dad's GTA managed to run 14.20's at around 92-94. That was bone stock through the stock mufflers. This car had the 3.45 9-bolt rear, I don't remember the option code, I don't know if this site even acknowledges 3.45 gear 9-bolts from the factory. The only cars my old man lost to in his GTA back in its day were maybe a few GNs, like one vette, and a Ferrari 308 GTS, which he ran even with until his tranny kept going back into third. POS. My Irock bone stock in 98 ran 14.7 at around 92 with a 2.77 rearend. I guess this about the average, but the better gears were worth a couple of tenths with proper traction. This is JMHO on the issue of TPI's and how they USED to run, when they're runn'n right.

 

I am not exactly sure about how this TPI tear shedding session and carb propoganda discussion started but I never had a problem whoopin that **** with my Formula!!

I bought my 87 Formula 350 as the second owner in 92. It was optioned exactly how a fast TPI car should have been optioned. 350, WS6, 3.27, posi, 4whl disk. Car had very few interior options AC, pwr windows & locks, cruise, int wiper, and tape deck were it all other options were deleted. The car was special ordered from the factory which explains all the deleted interior options but was factory ordered with the light-weight TA black crosslace wheels Vs. the formula turbo type. The original owner however did put on a few bolt ons. The car had a Gale Banks power pack exhaust which included a new 2.5 y-pipe, deleted cat, and 3 inch to the back. Along with a K&N, splitfire plugs and wires, airfoil, base timing at 10, removed spare and jack, and the magical Hypertech Thermomaster chip.

I never had the car at the track as it was always so much fun just dusting everyone else on the street. Beat 5.0 stangs of all variety, some vettes, TPI 5spd cars, TPI350 cars, and yes even the all elusive HO carb 305.

 

TPI, for it's time was indeed an awe inspiring site. Until you had to race one. For real. However, the tuned design was, and still is very good and in fact looks kick ***.


RB, you know I love ya man, but...

Take a step back and just read this... The TPI killed the F-Body...

All by itself?? You may want to qualify that statement. Really.

And Ed... just politics? We're talkin' the big ONE of the big three. Unions are easily fixed with money. Money is easy for these guys. BUT the catch is they only spend it if it will make 'em more. But they didn't have the sales...

No boys, it was not just one or two things that killed the f-body, but very many. If you want to stick it on one single biggie, blame women. They are sales. The secondary market was power, and GM was PERCEIVED as the loser there too...

In the late 70's performance cars were geared toward men. Big motors, black cars, bad *** movies, yadda, yadda, yadda. They were the ones ploppin' down the dough to buy 'em.
BUT in the 80's the demographics changed. The bread and butter of sales in the 'sports car' world were, and still are, 6 bangers.
Know why the fourth gen was an abysmal sale? Not for looks, the demographics showed that most people actually preferred the look of the 'bird, including women. They are however uncomfortable as all get out. Go from a fourth gen to an SN. Then think "I am a woman, which would I prefer?". GM loses. By very much. Especially in the passenger side and entry height.
Ford, not only saw this, but also took advantage of it. They sold cheap. What they did sell in bigger motors they made easily upgradeable. They designed for the sound of the bloody exhaust for cryin' out loud! Ever worked on a Fox body, or SN car? Compared to a third gen or fourth gen which is easier to work on? THIS is where RB's argument has merit. The damn TPI is a bitch to work on, and responds like molasses on a cold morning to easy bolt on mods (notwithstanding a head swap).
Thus Ford also dominated in PERCEPTION of the power of their cars. When you run and you lose, you remember. Since the foxes responded so well to simple bolt on upgrades, everyone that ran, knew how fast you could get 'em to go. With less busted knuckles. The guys going down to watch you run, and see you lose, go out and buy what they see win. (If you don't beleive this, go back and find out how quick ford implemented then killed it's SD in the Mustang, fun fact)
So Ford now has both the underlying money market as well as the performance market. Do you think that may have carried over a bit into the newer models. Damn strait it did. Do you think people still have brand loyalty now. To an extent they do. If you own a mustang and want another sports car, what will you first test drive?
By the time the fourth gen was stillborn, the mustang had such a following that it could have dedicated magazines (plural) published for it. The aftermarket for that one car surpasses any other in history (please don't give me the chevy 350... I said car).
Do you think it was an accident that ford threw in the 302 into the first two years if the SN model? They even transitioned people into the new model! These guys are ****ing slick!
Ford has had some of the best marketing in the auto industry for the last 15 years. They won in the family market, the won in the sports market, they even had the heads up enough to tap into the ***** market!!
Now what do you think ford has set it's sights on now? It may be either the 'Vette or the Viper. Seen the new GT-40? Ouch. (read: I WANTWANTWANT one!!)

I could go on to list a whole slew of other things. But it's late and I'm tired. I think that to qualify this entire thread you must take in the big picture. I will qualify this post thus... Before you make a judgment, you better have owned 'em and worked 'em. I have and do, and speak from years of experience.

 

Bully! Hear, hear! I agree!!

4th gens look just like an elongated hockey puck with one end sliced thinner than the other. Yuck!!

3rd gens are the ultimate styling statement for Camaros and 'Birds

Personally, I think high prices killed the f-body. It was supposed to be the working man's Corvette, which means it had to sell in the mid-20 thousand $$$ range. And I'm talking Canadian dollars.

Alas for the good old days ...

 

hehe I never ever would of came to that thought... i really dont know what a hockey puck looks like (Canada.. figures) but ill take your word for it. I always thought it looked like a door wedge with wheels.. lets turn this around to a 4th gen bashing post, since for all we know, THEY killed the fbody. Add on to that, the majority of the owners (i said majority, NOT EVERY FRIGGIN OWNER) attitudes twards 3, 2, and 1st gen cars has always put 4th gens in a negitive light for me. There are some guys that are cool, but next time you are at the track or the local spot and try talking to a 4th gen guy and tell them you have a 3rd gen with a 305... tell me how fast they walk away or look at you like a poor helpless child. They have an attitude of a 5.0 driver... but thats another story. 4th gen styling was ok for the early 90's... Space shuttle, very "different", and sleek(wedge shape i guess) but after a few years, cars started getting better looking, while the 4th gens stayed the same. A little touch up on the nose and lights in 98 made the car look better, but looked like a family car. The engines in the 4th gens are great, dont get me wrong.. but if there was a thirdgen with a LS1/6 and 6spd... that would be the top car.. next to a 1969 ZL1, yea baby! 4th gens suffer from the same stuff 3rd gens have, rattles and interior noises, cat hump, so so interior, no back seat, chitty 10 bolt, and chitty brakes. The rear of the car looks like a huge ****, esp on a camaro. To coin a phrase, "baby got back" cause the camaro rear bumper is HUGE and sticks out way past the body. Also the with of the rear is amazing... and the lights are so little.. its just so off its not even funny... it doesnt have the sharp, but muscular lines that camaros and firebirds had. 2nd gens kinda have the same round look, but 1st and 3rd gens have a sharp but muscular look. a 70 1/2 Z28 looks like a softy compared to a 69 Z/28. They should of stayed with the lines of the thirdgen... i mean look at the C4 and then C5.. both look simmilar in some area's of the car, and they both cary the basic shape, compared to the first 3 gens. The 4th gen camaro and firebird should of been an adapted 3rd gen look.. lines but make it new looking.. the C5 has the same shape as the C4, but looks a whole lot better. If the 5th gen comes back, i dont want a retro model, as they will sell half as what they used to sell in the 90's. There needs to be a new look, a new design. It needs to have true duals, a v8, rwd, live axle (no IRS, leave that to the vette) 6spd, and it must beat the mustang on all levels... ALL levels 6 bangers to super pony cars. The RS can battle the base model stang, the Z28 will smoke the GT (as it does now) and the SS will go head to head to whatever supercharged motor they are gunna come up with next in the Cobra. The Vette being the top speed king of the family will have to be loosend up a bit, so the SS can share the same engine as the Z06, just labled differently. The car must be stylish and fun to drive. 6cyl are what should make up more then half the sales as thats what drives the stangs sales. Dont be affraid to make the 6 cyl engine fast, cause people are now looking bang for the buck... There is no problem with the upper Z28 and SS modles now, cause car guys are buying thoes as the 6 banger sales plumit. The sales numbers show a lot of the SS's being sold, so there will always be people buying them. Man this is getting long.
* Cliff Notes: Hockey is weird, 4th gens suck, but the engines are cool, thirdgens rock and the 4th gen should of been based off 3rd gen like c4 to c5, the 5th gen needs to be fun to drive, look good, have a quick 6, and beat whatever ford throws in the stang, from 6 bangers to Cobra's. Ill be in line, with a deposit for a 5th gen if they are what i have described and no line cutsies *

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LnealZ28
[B]Even further off topic, but, where does this leave performance enthusiasts who want to buy a new, American made V8 powered sports car but don't quite have the beans for a Corvette? You got it......Rustang. Or a truck. Geez. My brother is one of those people. He's ready to buy an American sports car. He really likes the newer Trans Ams but guess what? He can't buy a brand new one and won't even consider a used one. And he would buy a new one if he could. If he feels this way, imagine how many more like him have been painted into a corner by the morons at GM.

My brother just did this same thing, wanted a new Camaro, couldnt get one without the dealer searching the country for a new one.(I dont even think there are any more new) Went and bought a new M*stang GT right off the lot for about $4000 less. Off original topic, but this whole thread is !

 

All my runs were 14.8's with 60 fts from 2.21 to 2.28. A better launch and I would be 14.7's all day.


Just thought id add that

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1990GTA
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by LnealZ28
[B]Even further off topic, but, where does this leave performance enthusiasts who want to buy a new, American made V8 powered sports car but don't quite have the beans for a Corvette? You got it......Rustang. Or a truck.

Could be the next great GM contender will be the Pontiac GTO. It promises to be affordable. It'll have the LS1 backed by a BW 6sp. And it's already performance proven in Australia. If GM learned any lessons from what you all have already stated, perhaps this might be the platform to hold the GM torch until Gen 5 arrives.

 

eww a truck or a stang... humm ill take a civic..

Quote:

[Could be the next great GM contender will be the Pontiac GTO. It promises to be affordable. It'll have the LS1 backed by a BW 6sp. And it's already performance proven in Australia. If GM learned any lessons from what you all have already stated, perhaps this might be the platform to hold the GM torch until Gen 5 arrives.

The GTO will be far from affordable with starting price at 33k.. plus the price for the 6spd which is around 700. Not to mention the dealer markup... Is it a great car? Yes. Is it worth 35k+? I dont think so. Would I get one if they were cheaper and called a Camaro? Daaam right I would. The Monaro (AKA GTO) is a great car down in Austrailia and will prove to be a great car, but its gunna be in very limited production and the dealers are going to kill the hype with the mark up when it hits the US. Its going to be heavier then a 4th gen, but the handling is going to surpass the 4th gen due to the IRS and ridgid frame. The GTO has officialy been labled to put out 350hp. They have tuned the true dual exhaust to make it sound like the GTO of old. Style is ok, but 350hp in any RWD car and ill look the other way. I hope this whole RWD movement in the industry start GM's thought prosses on the next RWD affordable car. Ill be pissed if when i get out of college, there is no 5th gen and the only thing that there is for arund 25-35k is the stang... I might just have to go get me a Charger RT with the hemi!! hehehe

 

Consistent 14.5's @ 94 to 95 mph with K&N only. Best of 14.42.
1990 GTA 5.7, TPI, stock unrebuilt tranny, fully loaded with every power option.

Not trying to show you up,IROCThe5.7L,just trying to make the same point as you.

 

L98's.

it doesnt have the sharp, but muscular lines that camaros and firebirds had. 2nd gens kinda have the same round look, but 1st and 3rd gens have a sharp but muscular look. a 70 1/2 Z28 looks like a softy compared to a 69 Z/28. They should of stayed with the lines of the thirdgen... i mean look at the C4 and then C5.. both look simmilar in some area's of the car, and they both cary the basic shape, compared to the first 3 gens. The 4th gen camaro and firebird should of been an adapted 3rd gen look.. lines but make it new looking.. the C5 has the same shape as the C4, but looks a whole lot better. If the 5th gen comes back, i dont want a retro model, as they will sell half as what they used to sell in the 90's. There needs to be a new look, a new design.

You said it!! I gotta agree with that. BTW, IMO, the Z28 should be the top model 5th Gen as it was for so many years. All-out performance, while the SS becomes more luxurious.

 

The GTO will be far from affordable with starting price at 33k.. plus the price for the 6spd which is around 700. Not to mention the dealer markup... [/QUOTE]

I had no idea it was that steep. First press releases talked of a sub 26K base model. I really liked the SS Concept car and hoped it would be the next Gen 5 sans the four doors.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by iroc22
[B]:sillylol: Yes and they were pathetically slow.

Dont make fun of my truck, it will out handle, out accerate, and out perform any 3rd gen f-body. And no it was not just a looks package.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by egokiller68
[B]Really?? It will run real low 14's and hit .92 G's all stock?!

 

:sillylol:

Post some pics of this 5000lb 245hp mean machine.

 

N/M

 

I've gone 14.2 @ 92 a couple times (if my car is running 'hot', it basically dies off after the 1/8th)

 

Way to revive a year old post!

 

Here's some more TPI stuff...... opinions that is:

TPI (when clean) looked freakin' awesome!

 

well hell i guess ill unzip for this pissing contest lol...

that sentence is what caught my eye...i have one of those G92 LB9's and i have whooped on EVERY L98 car ive encounterd...completly factory (12 year old dry rotted tires, factory leaking exhaust, paper filter and a blown out T/O bearing) i ran a 15.12@92 first time EVER at the strip..2 more launches and was 14.89@92...over the next few weeks i added a K&N filter, flowmaster MUFFLER a new oem replacement clutch/T/O ground down the EGR walls and put on a set of firehawk SZ50 tires....first pass was a 14.48@95 (granny shifting)....6 more lauches and trying to break the tranny every shift i was cutting 1.9 60's and a 14.12 best@almost 96....like i said ive whooped EVERY L98 car ive run...the G92's i will pull out of the hole to my door and by 100 we will be even...i pull LT1's to half track and LS1's to about 400 feet...

i know i was driving it to its potential and L98 just had to mat it .....

ohhh yea its a fully loaded GTA with T-tops.....

but that 14.1 dont mean anyhitng to me anymore....ive gone CARBED and LT4 =)...z06 who huh?

 

The main problem with TPI is that you can't upgrade the power without replacing the intake. This makes it not a TPI anymore. TPI is great for a daily driver, but if you want real performance and a fast car TPI doesn't work, period.

Try replacing everything on a TPI engine with, cam, AFR heads, and whatever "performance" parts you want, the fact remains it will barely run any faster then stock. Now do the same mods and replace the TPI with a "good" intake and you will have way more power and be much faster.

Again TPI is not bad, its just can't make much more power then stock, no matter what upgrades without its replacement.

 

?? Trax got his to break 12's IIRC before he dropped the LTR set up no?

 

my Z with a 350 TPI g92 ran 14.2 at 98mph(org owner went to the track, was a good driver as well).. doesnt seem that slow to me, and that was very fast for its time, cuz most cars back in the 80s and early 90s were runnin 16s and higher (avg cars) So the TPI was kinda like the Ls1 of its day cuz most cars avg 140 hp with like 120lb of tq the TPI 245 hp with 345lb of tq... big diff....... And i love my car and i wouldnt even swap my TPI for a LS1!

 

and also the ppl who are puttin down the TPI, in 10yrs ur gonna do the same thing about the Ls1, theres gonna be another suped up v8 engine and u guys are gonna say haha rem the Ls1, only had 325 hp (or whatever it is.....) So pleeasse everybody just enjoy ur cars and stop being a bunch of p*ssys ,like kevs said.

 

TPI was bad to the bone when it came out; it was light years ahead of everything else. For about 2 years. It was as fast as the fastest carbed motors, or at least reasonably close, and got better gas mileage for the most part. Compared to LG4 cars especially, it's a quantum leap forward.

Then the competition caught up and passed it; and it took way too long for GM to respond. In the meantime, the competition got so far ahead, and stayed so far ahead for so long, that our cars (and Vettes too, don't forget) became the laughingstock of the performance hobby. While the competition was actually taking advantage of the improvements in cam profile that rollers offered, GM merely copied over their same lame "peanut" cam onto roller blanks. etc. etc. etc.

Look at the LT1 intake. It has to be just about the simplest possible design for a FI manifold. It is inconceivable to me that it actually took any "development" to come up with it. If it had come out 5 years earlier than it did (about when the MiniRam did), even without reverse cooling and OptiSpark and all of those other "innovations", the face of the hot-rod hobby today would probably be considerably different; and we wouldn't be lamenting the passing of the F body and repeating endless drivel rumors about it coming back "someday".

I personally have no use whatsoever for TPI. I don't drive a museum, so its mere accident of historical interest doesn't compel me to somehow overlook its design shortcomings. Whenever I get around to injecting my car, which may not be too far off, it will be with something other than that.

 

yeah yeah, hav anythin new to say? always talkin about the Lt1 intake...... BIG DEAL... I can add stuff to my L98 to do that..... If i rem the 93 Lt1 cam was only faster then the l98 (laterone) by not much... And u kno the L98 is 10 time cooler lookin then the Lt1, i grew up with the L98s my dad has a l98 vette, i hav a l98 camaro, my cuzin did hav a L98 Iroc and more...... I always loved the TPI system and never will hate it.. Lets put it this way the system was meant for low end tq and not alot of hp... I rather hav that 345lbs of tq ..... And the ppl that are sayin the TPI sys put the fbody down, dont kno what the hell ther talkin about, if i rem all the 70s and early 80s had like 190hp V8s..... i mean com on, the tpi sys brought GM back onto there feet, and started the l98 which advanced to the Lt1 and then the Ls1 ect... U always need to start somewhere, and build a foundation, and the TPI got GM back to buisness. TPI is like the foundation. And nothin beats fuel injection... Im not a big Carb fan. My TPI is great and i will never trade anythun for it! THAT ITS! TPI :hail:

 

I like my '89 Trans Am.
I like TPI.
I like that I currently have almost 390ft lbs of torque when i paid around 3k usd for my car. (4900 cnd).

This is the first car i bought with my own hard earned money. Im 19. And all my friends with they're 91 acura integra's. Buick 305's, 87 honda accord. 90 honda civic. even 94 jeep charokee. 86 murcuri capri (v6). v6 93 mazda 929. Some paid even more money then i did. And i smoke them all. Anytime and anywhere. Im rear wheel drive, most of them are front wheel. Almost all are FI. And they're still no match for me. i can burn rubber for 10 feet at half throttle in good weather. Without a nuetral drop, or dropping the clutch (dont have one anyway) and no brake stands. I even have video's to prove it.

For me, TPI is an awsome design. My mechanic has a monte carlo with 490hp on tap. Even he was shocked at the amount of power my gta was putting out. He's never done a 360 burnout from a stand still without revving the engine a bit. He has a high revving engine. No power down low, its a 350 even.

Nonthing wrong with tpi. Its not gonna beat anything out there fine. But a 350z is like 35k. The altima with a 3.5 v6 and manual (the only one thats competition for us) i also about 33k. Thats before taxes (and canadian) i have another 25k to put into upgrading my car to be on the same price level as them. Neadless to say. Ill have a 10 second car with i dump 25k into it. Thats almost 19000 USD.

 

also if i rem....... A 1991 L98 Corvette ran 0-60 5.3 sec and ran high 13s in a quarter mile.... thats seems very slow to me :lmfao:

 

 

lol..anyone ever notice that old post are usualy brought up by newbies?



Least the boys be a searchin'

 

8Mike9, yes, it's about time. I must say I don't mind an old topic coming up now and again.

Nick, yes, the l98 did help in GM's downfall. Let me repost in case you missed it:

TPI, for it's time was indeed an awe inspiring site. Until you had to race one. For real. However, the tuned design was, and still is very good and in fact looks kick ***.


RB, you know I love ya man, but...

Take a step back and just read this... The TPI killed the F-Body...

All by itself?? You may want to qualify that statement. Really.

And Ed... just politics? We're talkin' the big ONE of the big three. Unions are easily fixed with money. Money is easy for these guys. BUT the catch is they only spend it if it will make 'em more. But they didn't have the sales...

No boys, it was not just one or two things that killed the f-body, but very many. If you want to stick it on one single biggie, blame women. They are sales. The secondary market was power, and GM was PERCEIVED as the loser there too...

In the late 70's performance cars were geared toward men. Big motors, black cars, bad *** movies, yadda, yadda, yadda. They were the ones ploppin' down the dough to buy 'em.
BUT in the 80's the demographics changed. The bread and butter of sales in the 'sports car' world were, and still are, 6 bangers.
Know why the fourth gen was an abysmal sale? Not for looks, the demographics showed that most people actually preferred the look of the 'bird, including women. They are however uncomfortable as all get out. Go from a fourth gen to an SN. Then think "I am a woman, which would I prefer?". GM loses. By very much. Especially in the passenger side and entry height.
Ford, not only saw this, but also took advantage of it. They sold cheap. What they did sell in bigger motors they made easily upgradeable. They designed for the sound of the bloody exhaust for cryin' out loud! Ever worked on a Fox body, or SN car? Compared to a third gen or fourth gen which is easier to work on? THIS is where RB's argument has merit. The damn TPI is a bitch to work on, and responds like molasses on a cold morning to easy bolt on mods (notwithstanding a head swap).
Thus Ford also dominated in PERCEPTION of the power of their cars. When you run and you lose, you remember. Since the foxes responded so well to simple bolt on upgrades, everyone that ran, knew how fast you could get 'em to go. With less busted knuckles. The guys going down to watch you run, and see you lose, go out and buy what they see win. (If you don't beleive this, go back and find out how quick ford implemented then killed it's SD in the Mustang, fun fact)
So Ford now has both the underlying money market as well as the performance market. Do you think that may have carried over a bit into the newer models. Damn strait it did. Do you think people still have brand loyalty now. To an extent they do. If you own a mustang and want another sports car, what will you first test drive?
By the time the fourth gen was stillborn, the mustang had such a following that it could have dedicated magazines (plural) published for it. The aftermarket for that one car surpasses any other in history (please don't give me the chevy 350... I said car).
Do you think it was an accident that ford threw in the 302 into the first two years if the SN model? They even transitioned people into the new model! These guys are ****ing slick!
Ford has had some of the best marketing in the auto industry for the last 15 years. They won in the family market, the won in the sports market, they even had the heads up enough to tap into the ***** market!!
Now what do you think ford has set it's sights on now? It may be either the 'Vette or the Viper. Seen the new GT-40? Ouch. (read: I WANTWANTWANT one!!)

I could go on to list a whole slew of other things. But it's late and I'm tired. I think that to qualify this entire thread you must take in the big picture. I will qualify this post thus... Before you make a judgment, you better have owned 'em and worked 'em. I have and do, and speak from years of experience."

After this I did a little more reading and it seems there is some consensus with regard to the demographics part of my post. I still think from a performance standpoint, the Mustangs won because of two overwhelming things. Ease of upgrades (headers in a fox was 1/2 the time or less than a 3rd gen) and responsiveness to said upgrades. GM lost both times.

 

No; I didn't say TPI by itself killed the F body. It was part of the package.

I remember clearly when the Camaro and Firebird were the very image of the performance car.... when if you said the words "hot rod" or "performance" or "speed" or any of that, the thing that would pop into most people's minds was one of those cars. When these cars came out in 82, the competitor was a total joke, and had thrown away a,most 100% of the brand equity it had built up in its trademark by similarly bad marketing. But then for the last 4 years or more of their production run, the tables were completely turned. What happened? Where did all of that go? How did that image of power and speed change to the far less sought-after image that these cars now have in the eyes of the general public, as opposed to enthusiasts like us?

Underpowered, overweight, overpriced, uncomfortable, undistiguished-looking (or excessively gaudy... no in-between) slugs were pretty much the cause of the F car's demise. By the time they fixed the power problem, the battle was already long since lost. And they didn't do a good enough job on the other issues, to go along with the power solutions that they developed.

Incidentally, I had the option of driving a fairly nice 90 LB9 G92 car this evening; a little worse for wear here and there as you might expect any 15-year-old car to be, but in overall pretty good shape. The kind of car that I myself might buy if i was in the market for buying one. The owner of that car also drove mine. I can safely say after the reminder, I'll keep the extra power of an engine that is capable of accepting significant modification, and I will continue to enjoy not having TPI.

But, if you have it, and you have to keep it for whatever reason, then you're going to have to learn to deal with its shortcomings. It doesn't matter whether I like it or not; or whether it was good business or not; it is what it is. And if you like it, for whatever reason, then go ahead and enjoy it. I'm just glad I don't have it. See Red Devil's signature for my feelings about people who choose to attempt to mod it.