Yea its kinda fun every so often to raise old threads, just to see if peoples opinions changed much in a year or two.

Its still funny to read about people saying "blabla's car runs blabla with TPI. Thats still funny since my old carb and intake cost a fraction of that and runs just as well, probably better. The kicker is I dont recall anything about a q-jet being a high performance option on anything.

 

summer reruns...

 

Well, I have to agree that F*rd seems to be the only domestic car maker that gets this sports car thing nowadays. This wasn't always the case, but unfortunately it seems so now. The domestic makers, as a whole, just don't get it.

Case in point: why the hell did Chrysler reintroduce the "Hemi", the engine that was the baddest of the bad back in the day, and then put it in a damn truck??? All the while they have the Crossfire, IMO the coolest thing Mopar has put out in years, and yet they failed to put the "Hemi" in it ?? I know it is based on a Mercedes something-or-other, but still, if ever there was a case of someone needing a swift kick in the butt..................

Why do I mention this? It is yet another example of the domestic makers' ineptitude and short-sightedness. Here's something else to think about: maybe GM is smarter than we give them credit for. Maybe giving the f bodies a hiatus will give the public time to forget about all the dumb things that GM (and many of their owners!) did to them. Then, with a fresh start maybe the new f bodies will be to die for. If they look like this one and they have the performance to go with it I'll be first in line! We can only hope.............

 

whatever RB, my TPI is 14k org miles on her, and hasnt gave me a prob yet. I love it and will never switch it to Carb or tbi. Thats it the end i aint respondin to this post no more, just a waste of time and energy

 

Dont worry... Have faith young man. Keep your eyes on GM within a year or so. It wont look like that, but the "C" name will be back. No more fbody...but the C name will be back.

 

Wha?? Nickie me boyo, you haven't been hittin' the pipe have you? RB wasn’t actually directing anything at you per se. Mainly he was railing against GM. And then the second one was in response to my original post from last year which I reposted.

See, my original post was a response to this:

Of which RB later clarified. My post above was a copy and paste job of my original post from last year. RB is trying to clarify as it seems some many people are just popping to the second page.

What you failed to realize is that GM could have changed to an LT-1 type of intake years sooner than they did. You don’t have to be so defensive. TPI looks good, has good torque. It was getting it's *** kicked in the streets. The best example of the problem? If I had my choice of spending money to hop up my GTA or my Cobra, the Cobra will get the money because it will go faster for the money and be easier to work on. You can’t argue with sales figures nick, GM lost and lost very, very badly.

 

 

I hope not, GM might drop the ball again and do somthing stupid like with the 85-87 Nova. Its like seeing your grandma naked but to top it off its in a porno. We really need a barf smile. http://www.geocities.com/fullamg/pics/carpics/nova.bmp


Aghh even the TGO site doesent wanna load a pic of these ugly POS.

 

Wha?? Nickie me boyo, you haven't been hittin' the pipe have you? RB wasn’t actually directing anything at you per se. Mainly he was railing against GM. And then the second one was in response to my original post from last year which I reposted.


this subject is boring, lets it put it this way TPI was great for its time, it a fun and fast car just to cruise around with, yeah theres not much to modify it (ppl claim) theres ways to modify a tpi set. You dont agree with the tpi set up and support as much as i do(red devil rb) i like it and whatever floats ur boat, and thats it, nothin else to argue about

 

cuz all u r gonna do is repeat the same thing, and i understand how u think of it and what ur perspective is about it.. just a waste of time, cuz im not gona convince u and ur not gonna either, so peace

 

So you think it's slow. Whats fast? For the money, thirdgens are ok, look stylish, kinda comfortable, and perhaps most of all, way cool!

I new my car wasn't fast when I bought it, but I bought it for a couple of good reasons. 1. Its the cheapest kind of car to get 1000 HP out of. No, I'm not kidding. Its been my dream since 12 years old.

2. Its an american coupe, low milage, not tampered with, NO rust or dings or whatever. What other kind of car could you get who is this nice kept and with the same potential for this money?

Sure an lg4 with 170 hp sucks. My brothers 1,8 turbo VW passat with 175HP is probably just as fast. But it don't have any potential without spending gobs more money.

Btw, it even uses LESS gas than an old 2.0 98HP mazda 929 auto I had as a beater last winther.

But finally, it's a blast as a daily driver, cooler than most euro cars on the road every day.

GM should look at BMW 3 series rather than all the japaneze POS. I don't get it, why all the FWD luminas and sunbirds, when they could have made small rearwheel drive cars like bmw 325's and mercedes 190's. And they are actually quite fast, the top models. THey are the big sellers here in europa by the ones who cares about what they drive, not any japaneze POS. THats for retarded oh....retirded people.

 

How many times is this post gonna get dragged back up? Damn someone should just lock it already.

 

IMO If an engine swap is in the plan, an LG4 car is second only to the L69 car as far as suitability, and only because the rest of the L69 car will have some supporting hardware like readend gears, springs, swaybars, aircleaner, and exhaust that are slightly better suited to a performance car.

I personally would MUCH rather have an LG4 car than my LB9 car: Much less headache when motor swap time comes—If it ever comes, because I haven’t yet made up my mind which FI intakes’ compromises I am most willing to put up with. The only real benefit to me in having a later car is that the transmission is one of the later ones. I personally think that for an n/a street car, the only real benefits of EFI are somewhat lower emissions & maybe longer ‘tuneup’ interval. For the amount I drive my car, these are non-issues for me.

 

TPI vs carb... hmmm...

Carb = easy to tune and get a fair amount of power out of. Plus not a whole lot of electrical connections to get in the way.

TPI = while being no where near a performance injection, it did look great and did make ok HP for the times. For a time when GM's FWD cars like the Lumina Z34 made 215hp from a V6 and the Beretta GTZ made 180hp, I think the HP numbers were a little shall we say, LOW in the late 80's early 90's.

To me its all opinion. Some people like carbs because thats what they grew up with or thats what they know or simlpy because they're easier when it comes to engine swaps... To me, a 3rdgen body is modern enough that a carbed motor just doesn't fit it. Sure, there are plenty of carbed 3rdgens, but an FI system makes the car feel more modern and more agressive with today's cars. Yes, I will get rid of my TPI eventually and replace it with something like a HSR, but thats the reality of it all. You replace carbs with bigger ones, FI is the same, bigger, newer, it just depends on what you like and how big yer wallet it.

There's a 1980's chevy LUV truck here that started out by adding a TPI 350 V8 under the hood and in the 6 years since I've lived here, it now has a HSR system and a single turbo. Consistent 11's...

All in all, this topic is pointless. No winners, no losers - Can't we just focus on the cars we love, rather than what did or did not kill them?

 

Actually, changing over to the LS1's is what killed the F-body. Since GM has always killed anything that would perform like their flagship car the Corvette. You could get Corvette performance in a car that cost on the average of 15k less.

 

Since the 1rst f-bod came out there has been at least one model that can run close to the vette. This is not why GM killed the F-body. It was old, outdated, lame engineering for the time, and last but not least sales! In this day in age no one wants a $30K car that is only good to have fun with but is otherwise useless.

 

I would have to disagree with this. If this was the case, then Ford would have nixed the Mustang years ago. The Mustang is just about as useless as the F-bodies are and they have outsold the f-body for about the past 5 years (maybe more, I would have to research this). GM has a reputation of killing anything that came close to the performance of a Corvette. The Syclones and the Typhoons (yes cost had a factor but still quicker than the 'vette) the Grand National (some people say the swap to front wheel drive killed it, but in 1986 and 1987 the last two years they were the quickest car GM produced). The F-bodies were targeted at the same group that the Mustangs are, which is still selling strong and yes, sales might have dropped off a bit but the F-bodies were still seeing good sales. I can actually count in the group I run with in Knoxville about 15-20 F-bodies (maybe more) and are die hard fans of the cars, their ages range from 20-50. The new GTO (which is getting the LS2 for 2005) probably won't be around until about 2007 or so (after they make a Judge more than likely which will have a de-tuned LS7).

 

Thats one reason right there. The pony war was pretty much over for the time being. The mustang still sold, ford kept it. Also, GM kinda secretly needed a way to get rid of all those union workers in the St. Theresa plant. The next generation f-bod (or equivalent) is going to be made back in Michigan in the next few years at a whole new plant. Kinda conveinently done by GM if you ask me. I am sure GM knows what it is doing. It sucks, but they have their reasons. Not a single one of us can actually say though because we don't work at corperate for them. Until that day comes, we should get back on track with this thread.

 

Actually (no flames please) but the '03 Cobra is the best bang for the buck. This debate came up on our local board and about everyone agreed.

 

i'm going to bed, and i only have read about a 1/3 of the posts, but 93 lightings are slow. slow did you hear me?

 

hey hey hey lets not forget that the CAMARO IS COMMING BACK THATS RIGHT IN 2007 whole new platform...gm announced that about a month ago.. a few years away but hey...well find out what they have under their sleeve...

 

Where did they announce that? Do you have a link?

 

THAT'S IT ! After painfully reading this post i am getting rid of my slow 3rd gen..... I'm leaning towards the HYBRID.......there's performance...Only one question........ RB , Which is more of a poor excuse .....Duracell or Energizer?? This oughta keep em' going...on and on and on and on

 

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forum/in...showtopic=2294

 

After reading that, all I can say is "Where's the Firebird at!?"

 

Maybe it's because the bird has a worse rep than the camaro... who knows.


Anyways, popular hotrodding had an indepth article about the future, or perhaps the no future for the camaro. It seems a bit more thrustworthy than this thread being written 3/4 of a year ago. It has some interesting points and thoughts about of the F-body's demise.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/fea...409phr_camaro/

 

its not comming back because they have the gto back

 

Interesting, I read that entire article and I couldn't find anywhere that it stated TPI killed the F-body. They must not know what there talking about


It really sounds like the Firebird will not make a return. Didn't make much sense anyway, there practically the same car so its cheaper to just advertise, market, and produce one. Not that great for Pontiac Firebird fans, especially since the firebird was always the better looking of the two:lala:

 

IMO it could have been the popularity of the car itself that eventually killed the bird. The car isn't exactly unoticable, quite the opposite, it has a right in your face design, especially the 70's versions.

But when you mainly got junk beat up cars that people keep because of its heritage, coolness, and for restoration purposes (that often not accumulate to anything) and people drive and have these cars in front of their houses, it generates bad feelings about the name.

When it in addition where produced in such great numbers, and the majority of firebirds is old clunckers, then people associate that as something negative.

It is the same over here, I actually ran into a guy with a -73 bird with a built 455 ten minutes ago, and his car looked like total trash. No wonder the police stopped him every chance they got. And the loud exhaust often heard on these cars don't make them more popular by the general public.

The mustang is so more anonymously in this aspect. Maybe thats why people like it better since they don't associate the name with old junk and people with "dangerous" looks, since the old ones, 74-93 looks just like any other car on the road.

This is why I think the GTO will be a much safer bet for Pontiac. It's almost a clean sheet of paper with none of the negative image the bird has got. And I think this is the reason the bird aint coming back anytime soon.

 

Just think in a couple years the lt1 and ls1 will be considered slow....

 

I think everyone can agree that a TPI 350 car is capable of mid 14s with a good driver and decent tires. For its day it was one of the fastest cars you can buy. It was not overpriced for its class, and it offered a lot more than just straight line acceleration. It was a great handling car which made it fun to drive, even with an auto. The only car in its class that even came close to its performance in straight line acceleration was the mustang and the cars that were faster where the grand nationals, ferraris, and porsches all of which where at least twice as expensive, in the case of the testarossa, five times more expensive. The ultimate demise of the f-body came along with the demise of several other sports cars from different makers. The Japanese had several very good, very strong contenders in the sports car market; supras, RX7s, 300zx, and the 3000GT/stealth but they all went the way of the dodo because they couldn't sell very well either. The 300ZX, RX7, and Supra all had a decent history that could be traced back to the 70s. It wasn't cause they were crappy designs, they were barely advertised if at all; it was because they catered to a very small group of people; gearheads (as was mentioned earlier). The market for a sports car was drying up in the 90s. SUVs were what people prefered to spend their 30-50K on, rather than an impractical, expensive to insure sports car.
Yes TPI was a **** poor induction system, but it did not doom the f-body, for 1989, a 5.7 TPI IROC was a damned fast car, people thought it was then and even today the average person would consider it quick. Speed and performance was not the primary interest for the buyer; the f-body got faster and faster, had better braking and improved handling as well, but its sales continued to slump. The mustang got slower and slower (they piled on 300 lbs and took away 10 HP, then they had the dreadful 16 second turd 4.6 SOHC, only recovered it in 99 but even then, those cars were just barely able to outrun tired old 3rd gens) through out the 90s and its handling was still pathetic. people kept gobbling them up because it was an icon, just like the vette. So even if its hideously ugly (as mustangs have been since 1972) mustangs will continue to sell in high volume because there is an assumption among the general public that they are excellent and fast enough, and most of them don't care about the specifics or how many races can be won by them. The average person does not see the mustang in the same class as the f-body from what I've observed.

 

i would have to say there are some very wrong facts in here

infact the tpi camaro is what saved the muscle car era i have a lot of 85 and up car and driver magazines in every single magazine there is a mention of how bad *** the new tpi irocs are ....and how the muscle cars are back and are not slow any more... the iroc 'z could pulled up to a .92g on a skid pad thats pretty ****in impressive...further more my best completly stock time not even free mods is 14.2 at 97mph with an average of 14.4 tpi is a very good system it just needs to be tweaked...such as super ram...is still tpi...but look at the hp you get from it..

 

ok i maybe new to this forum and have owned my 88 iroc-z for over a year now and knew close to nothing about tpis. well i learned and learned and it seemed with in depth search the first key to the tpi is to do everything gm did not do to these engines. for instance the gm cooling system stock out of the factory killed performance on these engines off the line amongst many other things. unfortunatley gm kept these puppies very restricted as to not even come close to the vette. my tpi 350 has original 98,529 now and i have done many mods and tuned this engine to where it should run not at gm standards. i believe that is a very big thing when looking at tpis with regard to opinion of which way they run with gm standards or our standards. i will say that i have not raced much but from when i have the tpi speaks for itself guys. i have not ever driven such a more powerful low end torque engine than this one. the key lies in how and what you do to the engine and how you want it to run

 

'93 Lightning
Engine Size: 5.8 liters
Horsepower: 240 hp@3600 rpm
Torque: 325 ft-lbs.@2800 rpm

still quite far from 13's stock

 

Dam guys ..

Who is this guy anyway ... comming on our own turf
raggin' on our cars ..

Them Fords have nothing on a Z28,IROC,T/A etc etc ..
Ive been in fbodies and driven in fbodies on the street
for awhile
I ran with a 93 .. even the new ones

I coulda lit up a smoke, shifted into 1st and
begone by the time I had to worry about him pulling
on me.

I loved to see every body get worked up by this guy ..
this by far is one of the largest topics Ive seen ..

almost everyone had something to say !!
This guy is obviously jus trying to get
under our skins


and about TPI .. I love it .. TPI is the reason I wanted
a GM sports car .. Not because the vette had it
because its a affordable platform for the common
gearhead .. and all that talk about not being able to get
power out of TPI motor and wipe my as*
Im doing jus fine ..

I have a friend with a 98 FireHawk

and my "So-called" TPI crap can make him sweat
in his boots ...


also , I do agree that the 89 TPI engines were way
more efficient and quick stock .. I know .. I have owned 2
1989 T/As and Friends that had older models could only
gawk as I pulled past them with a grin and a Marlboro
in my mouth

 

That last line is why the Mustangs of the era could just walk away from the f-bod. Part for part they performed better. The first sentence bears out the fact that you uttered the second one.

Face it, the Mustang won in sales, on the street, and on the books. It, unfortunately, was the one that should receive the credit as it was the most versatile platform, most appealing, and quite honestly was a helluva lot easier to work on.

It won the hearts of 'gearheads' (which is really those who run and build 'em themselves), women (which drive the market guys!!) and posers (wannabe gearheads) for the ability to 'hang' with simple mods. They had a better design in the lifter footprint (pre-roller), sound esthetics, engine compartment layout, and that all powerful statement of a standard tranny and dual exhaust.

And yes, by todays standards ( as well as yesteryears - think carb) TPI sucks, but I still have one.

 

I dont know... You guys are complaining that GM put a good motor with a ****ty cam into your car.... I like that. All I have to do is swap a cam and the insurance company thinks I have 200hp when I actually have more like 250! Fun Fun!!

 

again wrong the iroc-z by car and driver won i have a special magazine devoted to this....in the 1/4 mi they said you would never tell a true winner it went up and down all day...in the skid pad the iroc kicked its ***...in top speed it won by 5mph 149.1mph the iroc-z also won for top 10 cars...in 1986 and on those are the issues i have. so keep in mind that was single cat.

 

Yep, sure. Live the dream TPI is great, sure it is.

 

Hes right .. Mustangs sucked
Maros and Birds out performed 'em from what
Ive seen and expierenced

 

You must not have seen or experienced very much then. Its all nice to say that we have the better cars overall, but they definately werent the best performers.

 

They were poorly arranged stock. Very restrictive

 

TPI in its stock form is dreadful, doesnt even resemble a performance induction system.

 

How is any part of my post wrong?!?

Yep, car and driver knows exactly what's run, how it's run and modifies accordingly. WTF does a car and driver article have to do with anything performance? Who the hell leaves their car stock???

Don't you people take things in context? Part for part they performed better" How the hell is that wrong?!? I've owned these cars since 1989 (yes both). I've built them side by side. Dollar for dollar, the mustang won. The simple bolt ons always worked better on the mustang. (yes Virginia, there is a correlation of tq/hp to weight.)

Then that brings up the issue of working on the car. It is much easier to work on a fox body than an f-bod. Much.

They whooped us when they were on carbs as well, mainly because of the larger lifter footprint and all that it signifies. Hell your devoted magazine even calls 'em even stock (though from first hand experience I cal BS). For crying out loud, a lot of these fox bodies were not even bothering with the f-body, they had their sites set on the GN's, T-types and GNX's.

Our saving grace was the skid pad, but you can make a Fox do that well also. Me, I just hop on my bike when I want twisties. :shrug:

I live in reality, if the f-bod was the shiznit, you'd see the sales and market share accordingly, instead you see sales go to the Mustang. To this day, I'd rather install three sets of headers on a fox than one on a chicken.

 

I agree that its really no big deal
because no one really keeps thier car stock.
not me anyway.

As for the success of the Mustang over the Fbod;
isnt that it had the better engine or it what easier to
work on ... Half the people I know that have any kind
of sports car, dont know jack about it ..
They take it to the shop .. Or daddy fixes it
I mainly see WOMEN cruisin' a Mustang GT, IROC or
a sick Trans AM, its like that nowadays ..

So I find it alil far-fetched that the success
of the Mustang was because of those
reasons.

I never once saw a Ad or commerical for
a late model T/A like I did the stang, But
who did you see in the limelight? ...Ford


It was sheer marketing genius on Fords part.
and being that GM and its only Fbody factory
was in hiatus. And all that jibberish about TPI
killing the Fbody is the most ridiculous thing I
ever heard ...

How long did the Vettes run TPI??
A good long time .. and it's still
alive and kicking'

 

Actually it was because they had the better engine, and car setup. TPI didnt kill the f body, GM did. TPI just made sure that it couldnt beat the mustangs.

 

Apples to oranges. Performance is not the reason the mustang beat out the F bodies in sales. It was marketing, pure and simple.

 

Yeah, cause the faster car wont last huh? I guess the TPI was just too much for the consumer to handle so they went out and bought slow mustangs?

 

Thanks morley for backing my point.
Smarter marketing on Fords part

I have not had any trouble with my TPI,
I have never ran into a Ford I couldnt handle
with my TPI. I have not had any trouble
producing HP with this Induction system.
The main point is, Its probally cheaper to go
with a more updated Induction system down
the road. But keep in mind .. The precious LT1 and LS1
will have the same fate as the TPI system; and will face
the same criticisms with a newer Induction system
developed. ITs the way the cookie crumbles no?


I dont condemn the use of TPI,
I dont believe its a bad system.
However, Its an outdated system;
So for people to turns thier back on it
is inevitable ..

I will continue to power my fbod with a
TPI motor regardless of the criticisms.

 

Missed the boat completely, huh? That retort was laughable.