JRoy91RS

Ok, I'm not sure if this is the correct forum to post this, and I definitely hope this isn't a non-tech question (my apologies if it is), but what would you guys consider to be the technical definition of "muscle car". I saw a discussion similar to this one a while back, but wasn't sure how it was resolved. Is a turbo engine still a muscle car? Overhead cams? There seems to be a difference between a "muscle" car, and a "sports" car, and was wondering where most people drew the line as far as what's under the hood. Reason for asking, it only seems fair to compare vehicles, or even race them, if they are under the same classification.

evilho7810

Mototr Trend called a muscle car any car that would burn rubber whenever you wanted it to.

Buck Mustard

I don't believe that there is a "technical definition" of muscle car.

Some might claim that it is a mid-sized car with a big-block. I would personally be more apt to agree with evilho7810's response.

If you need to classify cars so you can race them, there are probably better means than trying to identify what is a 'muscle car' and what isn't.

MRZ28HO

American car (company = Mopar, Ford, GM)
produced from ~'63 until ~'74
2 door
4 seater
front enigne
V8
rear wheel drive
more suited to drag strip duties (but can be able to handle curves)
dual exhaust
carburetated



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George P. Lara
1994 Z28 LT1 T56
1984 Z28 High Output
Member: SCCA, SCFB, SC3GFB

TRAXION

Rear-Wheel drive american horsepower machine.

Keep the Buick Turbo V6 in mind when you consider this definition. Also keep in mind the Z06 vette.

Tim

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TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.587 @ 107.97mph (1.710 60ftr) on the long runner setup.
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels. Stock Wheels. No Weight Reduction.
Gunning for NA 11's with the MiniRam II and Hooker LT Headers.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

Jester

4 seater is also a defining characteristic of a muscle car..thats why Vettes are sports cars and not muscle cars

Jester

Ok..I looked up the definition of a Muscle car in the dictionary and I scanned it on..so here is the oficial verdict.

Muscle car:


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"American made baby. 100% American iron. The muscle among the masses. My hero. Yep, you can take your ergonomically designed, space age, computer controlled, 4 door, cup holding map lighted split double wishbone split fold down retractable cargo covered moon roof piece of transportation and keep it. For I have felt the thunder. And I know the difference!"
Jesters's Page of Sick Pleasure
Florida Thirdgenners Message Board
ICON Motorsports

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I would have to add least 1 horse per cube at the rear wheels.

[This message has been edited by scooter (edited October 04, 2000).]

FastBroker

Paint the hood, already!!!!!!!

Mark305TBI

I agree with MRZ an everything but the carbeurated part. A muscle car can be fuel injected, there are lots of retrofit fuel injection cars out there that are definately considered muscle cars in my book.

-Mark W.
'88 SC Camaro w/ 305 TBI

MRZ28HO

I would consider those to be Hot Rods or Resto Rods. I am an ole skool kinda guy.

Monkie

I would say it could be a V6 too!! And the non turbo ones! But over all I would say 2 door, 4 seater, has to be able to burn rubber, and RWD. Thats my opinion on this.

Dan87IROC-Z

I would consider a muscle car one that is ment to go down the drag strip, not around a road course. I condiser most Camaros/Firebirds to be sports cars 3rd and 4th gen. 1st and 2nd gen are muscle cars.

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1987 Chevy Camaro IROC-Z
L98 TPI 350 (5.7L)
TH 700R-4 Transmission with 2.77:1 Rear End

Current Mods: Edelbrock TES 1 5/8" Headers, Hooker Aerochamber Cat-Back System, Performance Resource Chip with 160* Thermostat, Accel Ignition Components, K&N Filters, All Free Mods, Falken ZIEX Z-Rated Tires.

Best ET : 14.3 @ 97mph
(corrected for elevation)

Apeiron

I've always felt that muscle cars were full-sized cars available with 4 doors, whether they had them or not. The smaller 2 door non-2 seaters would probably be better called pony cars, although this designation sticks in my throat as being tainted by Ford.

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1984 Silver Z28, 383 cid 4 bolt, ARP Fasteners, 2 1/2" Cowl Induction Hood, 600 cfm Performer Carburetor, Torker II Intake, Performer RPM Heads, XE268H Cam, Magnum Roller Tip Rockers, MSD6A Ignition, Blaster2 Coil, HEI Distributor w/ Adjustable Advance, 700R4, TransGo SK, 2.73:1 Limited Slip Dana 44, Terminator Headers, Custom 3" TIG Welded Stainless Exhaust, Flowmaster Muffler, 4 Wheel Disc Brakes, Oil Cooler

84IROC

There is no way a V6 powered car can be classified as a "muscle car", in my opinion. By definition the car needs muscle and MY definition of a muscular engine is a high powered, normally aspirated V8! Carbed or injected.(that last one may be debatable though).

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"84Z28/'91 305TPI comp cam flowmaster TB coolant bypass/shutoff valve to heater core MAT relocated Ram-Air(home-made) gutted air-box IROC ground effects/wheels GY245/50's 700R4 superior shift kit/ corvette servo(excellent shift kit BTW) Rebuilt engine and transplanted it myself. Love this engine!
LOW performance people should drive low performance vehicles!

Monkie

I know you're not saying V6s dont have power. LOL, cause if you are then you are stupid. You might not think they're a muscle car but they are quick! About a month ago I beat a 2nd gen Z28 350. And Ive got a STOCK 92 RS 3.1L. So if I were you I wouldn't put down V6s when some can beat your all mighty 350 SB.

JRoy91RS

Wow, I didn't think I'd get this kind of feedback. Thanks guys! I think that big, domestic, and rear-wheel drive seems to be the common thread here. Not sure how I feel about the V-6. I don't think that just because it is fast makes it a muscle car. I think that we should include some sort of "maximum fuel efficiency" requirement in the definition, say 19 mpg . That would get rid of the V-6's too

Ratnose86SC

I agree with the 4 doors opinion. Also i think most people would say 3rd and 4th gens are pony cars rather than sports or muscle cars.

The first response was still the best though.

MRZ28HO

The term Pony Cars comes from Ford refering to the Mustang (you know, a horse car). And I don't believe the Camaro/Firebird (F-body) are Mustang cars. Also, if it has a four door option, then that rules out the F-body, GSX, Mustang, Charger, Cuda, RoadRunner, etc ... etc ... and it would include the Caprice Classic, DeVille, etc ...

Monkie

I dont think there is "muscle cars" still being made. For me, muscle cars died in the mid 70s. 1957-1973 I would say.

Monkie

In insurance terms "Muscle car" is a 2 doored 4 seater car. "Family car" is a 4 doored 5 seater car. "Sports car" is a 2 doored 2 seater car.

Engineboy

Anything that isn't RICE.

84IROC

Monkie,
I did not mean to infer that one could not coax decent power from a V6, simply that the V6 does not really fit the genre from wence the term "muscle car" was originally derived. IMHO the true "muscle car" era began in 1962 with the introduction of the 409 powered Impala, by chevrolet, and died, tragically, in 1971 with the on-set of a "totally fabricated" energy crisis and the resultant low compression smoggers that the factories and the insurance companies(another story altogether) pushed upon us.

84IROC

Just submitted by a friend of mine who just happens to be THE muscle car aficionado: "If it makes you quiver with delight when you stomp on the "loud" pedal then, my friend, it surly must be a Muscle Car!"


sig: '71 Ford pu .040 over 460 on nitrous
(going strong for over 20 years now)

zippy

hard to come up with a definition of a muscle car. my way of defining is by examples. tripower gto, 409 impala, 427 impala, 454 chevelle, 427 vette, 327 nova ss, grand national, gnx, zr1 vette, lt1 powered z28's and ls1's, etc. new or old, as long as it was the best it could be and was really fast. examples of not being muscle car. newer impala ss, crossfire, tbi, or standard output carbed camaro, crossfire corvette, 327 impala, 283 55 to 57 chevy, standard big blocks, etc. just because it was good for it's time, doesn't make it good. just my opinion.

IrocLouver

Any 60's to early 70's big block (302 Chevy and Ford exceptions), two door, 4/5 seater is my idea of a muscle car. I love my Iroc, but I don't consider it a muscle car. My '68 Chevelle SS, now THAT was a muscle car!

TomP

I also don't consider "new" cars to be muscle cars... to me that stopped in the good 'ol days- of course, when I wasn't born.

And yeah I don't consider my v6 a muscle car, any more than I consider any other 3rd-4th gen F-body a muscle car. But I won't hesitate to call my car a hot rod! In the words of one of the editors of (heh) Hot Rod Magazine- "A hot rod is any car that you work on with your friends."


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards

Mike 25th

I know there are enough damn posts here, but my .02 is needed here as well.

I agree that anything past the late 70's is NOT a muscle car.

I agree that a V6 car is NOT a muscle car.

I agree that they MUST be 2-door 4-seaters.

I agree that JESTER should paint his hood

My definition of MUSCLE car:
1973 T/A SD-455
1969 429 Boss Mustang
1969 GTO Judge
1969 Dodge Charger R/T
1969 Camaro w/Cross Ram

Every manufacturor was building cars for different purposes. Dodge built a ton of cars that they lost money on just so they could run them in NASCAR. Now that's a muscle car. Some manufacturors built cars that people would race right off the lot. Now that's a muscle car. Any car they made close to 100,000 units of - is NOT a muscle car. A Yenko, Boss, Judge, SD-455 are all cars that you won't find in just anyones garage. I had a '69 Firebird with a 327 - and I wouldn't even consider that a muscle car just because there were always 8 more like it at the car shows... GET MY POINT?

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92 Z28 - 5.7 - Black/Grey Leather
Macewen White Faced Guages
SLP T-RAM, 24lb/h Injectors
Accell 52mm Throttle Body
SLP 1 3/4" Headers and Cat Back Sys.

My T-Rammed L98

Ehelmsin

I think keep it simple. A car with LOTS of torque, doesn't care about mpg, turning, or stoping. One that can go sraight really fast. Basiclly a "car" with lots of "muscle." I think someone could build a muscle car out a '00 Camaro, or even a Ford model T. All you need to do is add "more power." That is just my opinion, I could be wronge.

turboscott

For all you guys who don't think the V-6 GN is a muscle car need to come for a ride in mine. I can't keep the wheels from breaking loose. I was doing 30 mph the other day and got on it and the tires broke loose and I went sideways. I would like to see some of your V8's do that. Or do it from a stop for that matter. 450 rwhp is muscle in my opinion.

jimmy_mac

If it has wide reasonably sticky rear tires but still has trouble hooking up and makes a lot of noise trying to hook up and goes at least 100 mph in the quarter then it's a muscle car. That's what muscle is about. Not knowing your own strenght.

turboscott

See, by those standards my GN is muscle. It goes over 100 mph in the 1/4 mile. It makes noise hooking up, from the turbo, and it's got larger than stock tires on it. V-6 can be muscle.

Ed Maher

Wow, talk about an all time lame argument to have brought back from the dead.

There is no real formal definition of a muscle car, so whatever you want to think it is is probably good enough. I mean, who really cares if a V6 is a muscle car or not. Or if a muscle car can only be from the golden era. Or if a muscle car has to make a certain amount of power, etc.

It doesn't matter. And i imagine this ancient thread is about to be locked because it is utterly pointless and completely non-tech

ME Leigh

Muscle Car = A car with big power, and is fast in a straight line.

Sports Car = A car that is fast in a straight line, around corners and handles well.

spartyon

a muscle car is definitely pre emissions. well i my eyes they are

85maroz28

What I concider a Muscle Car
-1967-2002 Camaro Z28/iroc-z/rs/ss v8's only
-1967-2002 Firebird TA/TTA/Formula/GTA V8's only (v6 exception TTA)
-Chevorlet Chevelle/Nova/Impala/Malibu/Corvette/Monte Carlo/El Camino v8's only
-Pontiac La mans/GTO v8's only
-Dodge Charger/Charger RT/Dart/Challenger/Viper/ v8/v10 only
-Plymouth Roadrunner/Baracuda/Duster/GTX v8's only
-Chystler ? v8's only
-Oldsmobile ? v8's only
-1964-present Mustang GT/LX/Salleen/Cobra/Rouch ect. v8's only
-Ford Thunderbird/Torino v8's only
-Buick Grandnational/T-type (v6 exception)
-Buick 442/GSX/Skylark/Riviera v8's only
-Mercury Cougar/ v8's only

Thats pretty much all I can think of right now. I am sure that I forgot some and I am sure there are some on here that some people might not agree w/ but thats ok this is just my opinion! If I missed any feel free to add!

AJ_92RS

That's pretty much what I consider "muscle". Kind of like r-ice. It's more of an 'image' than it is a definite type of car.

Kind of like a muscle man. Big burly, brawny looking fellow. But instead of a man, it's a car.

Something that makes you go "OH SH**!!" when you see it and/or hear it.

There's a guy that lives near me that has a '70 Buick GS with a 455. Clean, gorgeous, all original, but it doesn't have the "muscle" look. It doesn't make me think "I don't want to race that car."

On the other hand, there's a guy that has a '78 Malibu that EVERYONE runs from. I'm not sure what he has under the hood, but it certainly has that "muscle" look.

This is just my 2¢. If it's intimidating then, IMHO, it's "MUSCLE"!!!

jimmy_mac

I can't believe you spent the time to come up with all those cars. You are a true enthusiast.

Enkil

ummm I'm not saying v6's can't be fast, but to beat a car from that era isn't much of an accomplishment. My 81 'vette has a 350 with 190 hp, which is just HORRIBLE for a 350. But it's what they had available at the time. Of course a car 15-20 years newer is going to have more power.

Enkil

Don't know... This vette looks like it could qualify as a muscle car to me.

Marshall89ws6

Well When i classify a muscle car i dont mean to rag on other stuff.... just to define a "muscle car"

now a muscle car (staying true to the 60s and 70s when they were around) should be(in my opinion)

Carbed
Non-emmisions
Straight Line design not sporty
A stout capable V8 , like the ones manufactured into actual muscle cars in the past.
RWD
Very Loud and Nasty
Very Fast... Lots of Torque
Lots of Tire smoke
Doesnt have to be pretty.... but to me they all are.
2-door, 4 seater.


This is Strictly Staying True to the deffinition of a Muscle Car....Just keeping it True to what they really were and are.

Ian_F

A muscle car is any domestic rear wheel drive car that has serious *****. By that I mean it goes realy fast in a straight line. Oh and 85camaroz28, Buick didn't make the 442, Oldsmobile did.

JPrevost

Muscle car in my eyes;
Sheet metal, lots of it. This means vettes are in another league.
V8 n/a or a v6 with a turbo.
Heavy in the front end.
Smoking on demand.
Drifing on demand.
A sound that will make all ricers have small engine envy .
One easy way to tell if you've got a muscle car is to drive around in bad weather and scare the crap out of yourself when you think your trans popped into neutral but realize that it's just your rear tires spinning. If you let off the gas and your rear end snaps back into line then you've got some muscle.
Those make a muscle car. So the LG4 305 stock will not qualify as muscle material unless it's had been wrenched on.
If I had to define muscle cars in one word it would be "unsafe."

Air_Adam

The definition i read somewere went something like this:

"Muscle Car - An american 2 door sedan with a medium-large displacement, carbuerated V8 engine with either a 3 speed auto or 4 speed manual transmission and the rear wheels driven through a solid axle."

Sounds about right to me... sounds like they describe pretty well a vintage Charger or Camaro fairly well.

Air_Adam

I think if there is only ONE car that defines exactly what a muscle car is, it is this:

1969 Plymouth Roadrunner/GTX
- 426 Hemi
- 4 speed
- Cragar S/S mags (only the baddest looking wheels from the '60s)
- white lettered tires
- Hood Pins on the flat black hood
- bright yellow traction bars
- bright "Hemi Orange" paintjob

If this does not define "Muscle Car" i dunno what does

Error404

That is quite possibly the best explination I think I have heard! Thats what usualy pops in my mind. Usualy a Chevelle, or a Mopar of some sort.

Air_Adam

A Mopar like this?

rxbxfx0220

Not sure if this is the right thread or not, but oh well... I was just wondering what size the gas tanks are for our cars. I imagine around 20 or so gallons, but if anyone know for certain cool. No real reason, just curious. Can never know too much!

BillZ28

Well it looks like I missed the boat on this, but I'll still throw in my 2 cents. Yeah, Grand Nationals are really fast, but I still don't consider them a muscle car. I think a V8 really is a requirement for a muscle car.

zippy

a car capable of burning the tires at will and able to compete with the best car's of it's era.

if i were to pick a few.
1963 impala ss 409 and 427.
1964 ford fairlane thunderbolt
1963 pontiac tempest
1963 corvette 327/375hp
1965 corvette 396/425hp
1967-69 camaro 396 and 427
1970 1/2 camaro 350/360hp
1973 pontiac trans am sd455
1970 pontiac trans am 455ho
1968 ford mustang gt500 (428)
1970 ford mustang boss 429
1970 buick gsx
1970 oldsmobile 455ho ram air hurst olds/442
1969 pontiac firebird and gto/judge ram air III and IV 400
1969 camaro and corvette ZL1 (the kings)
1967-69 corvette 427 (including tri-power and L88)
1965-67 shelby cobra 427
1986-87 buick t-type and grand national
1987 buick gnx
1989 pontiac trans am pace car (tta)
1993-02 f bodies with v8
1990 to 1995 corvette zr1
1996 corvette gran sport
2001-2003 corvette z06
etc. a few others would be the amx's, rebel machine, hurst rambler, some of them chrysler things, and so on.