With the sdpc engine:
http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?ac...d=1577&pid=9009
What would the rwhp be? I was reading a post on the TPI message board:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...5&pagenumber=1
And all these guys are saying you can't get that type of horse from TPI.
So, this is making me contradict even getting that engine. Would it be a good swap? W/ headers, cat back, etc. etc. what would I be able to push from that engine w/ a stock tpi setup? Like I said, I can get the plenum, tb, etc. etc. for $100 off an 87 IROC. I'd also go w/ Edelbrock Runneres most likely.
So, what's the bottom line you think?
Oh yeah, and I would transfer the power w/ a Pro Built Street/Strip 700R4 w/ the Vigilante Torque Converter.
Give me some good news guys!! lol

Thanks

 

Your links don't work, but I think you're talking about this engine?

For some reason on this board if the text you put for the hyperlink is too long it'll mess up the URL also.

 

Flyway, yeah, that's the engine. Just substitue that for my link, and go by the rest of my post. Thanks!

 

A stock TPI setup won't fit on it. THe intake ports won't line up with the ones in the heads. You MUST run a Vortec intake with Vortec heads, and the only source for one of those is SDPC... and fortunately for those who want to buy that particular item, it's part of it.

Their ratings were for the engine exactly as it ships, with Edelbrock runners, a stock plenum etc., and no doubt some non-stock injectors with enough flow rate to supply that many HP (HP = lbs/hr of fuel and CFM of air). However, your stock MAF won't flow 350 HP of air; and their rating was obtained with 1-7/8" headers which will be long tubes.

So draw your own conclusions as to what your collection of parts will do. I would guess that with a SD setup instead of a MAF, and SLP 1¾" headers (something that fits the car gracefully), you'd be at around 340 HP or so. I don't know exactly what the 255 g/sec limit of the stock MAF, or its restrictiveness, will limit your HP to; at a guess though, you'd derate yourself to somewhere around 285-300 HP with the stock MAF. Those are nothing but raw wild guesses; no warranty expressed or implied, your rights may vary from state to state, batteries not included, etc.

 

no warranty expressed or implied, your rights may vary from state to state, batteries not included, etc.

lol

Anyway, I don't have that intake. It was some guy on ebay selling the intake manifold, plenum, etc. off an 87.
I have a '90 Firebird 3.1 mpfi. I want to do a swap. And I'm going to modify the loom to a tpi.

So, what intake would I need? Any model numbers off sdpc's site? Would I need one of those w/ a whole new computer, etc.? What other options do I have then for a Crate w/ high output, but around the same cost?

My only concern is that I have to be 100% emissions legal, and I want to keep Fuel Injection. Was aiming towards the TPI setup, but if it won't bolt on to THAT engine, it won't bolt on.

 

Go visit the page. It tells what comes with the motor.

I haven't the vaguest idea whether your particular 6-cyl ECM will work on a TPI motor. I do know that some 6-cyl cars came with the 7730 S/D ECM which is one of the ones that you can use with the 90-up S/D TPI; I also know that a 87 TPI setup is not S/D, it is MAF, and will not work with that ECM; but I have no clue whether your car has that one or not, as I don't mess with 6-cyl cars at all.

Seems to me, the easiest thing to do, would be to come up with a 90-up S/D TPI plenum and runners and air intake plumbing, forget the 87 stuff; that will result in far less swap work for you. Then get the right ECM out of some car (doesn't have to be TPI) that has it, and burn yourself a chip, which you'd have to do regardless.

 

Yes, but going that way, that intake would still not FIT that crate motor (From what was said)...so, I'm just saying, what do I need to use w/ that engine? Or, is there something better that I can use w/ the TPI setup from a 90-92? Yes, I have the 7730 ecm, and it will work w/ my setup, just have to change the chip.

 

I don't think you understand....

The "baseplate" is the intake. It's the piece that has to be the special Vortec thing. It comes with that motor. All you need is the runners, plenum, TB, air intake plumbing, fuel rails, injectors, & wiring.

But, to work with your ECM, you need a 90-92 TPI, not the 87.

It's really all pretty straightforward.

 

Ok, SO, the "stock" runners, plenum, TB, air intake plumbing, fuel rails, injectors, (my modified wiring), WILL bolt up to that baseplate then, correct? I was just getting confused, b/c I THOUGHT it would, but then you said it wouldn't bolt up. I was referring to the plenum and things, and not the baseplate. Ok, so now that all of THAT is figured out, I CAN get a Plenum, etc. from a '91 GTA...the guy said he wants about $400 or so for everything. Do you think it's a deal? I would probably only change the runners. So, rwhp would be like 330 or so? And actual flywheel would be 400 or so? Or, am I way off? I was also told 22 to 24/lb injectors would work just fine. I was thinking the SLP GM ones for $100. What would be the way to go?

 

Sorry..... what I said was, However, that motor in the link comes with a non-stock one that does fit.

I don't think 22 lb-ers would be enough. Think about it; it takes fuel to produce HP. Power = energy per time. Specifically, one HP is the time rate of energy release (doing work) that equals expending the amount of energy required to lift 33,000 pounds one foot, in one minute. So, one HP means you burn enough gas in one minute to raise 33,000 lbs one foot. Each unit amount of fuel (pound, gallon, molecule, whatever) contains a specific amount of energy. If it takes 2 minutes to burn 33,000 lb-ft of fuel, then it's only ½ HP. That means tha in order for an engine to produce x amount of HP, the corresponding amount of fuel and air have to flow into and out of it. If you look up the energy content of gasoline, I think you'll find that 350 HP takes more fuel than 8 x 22 lbs per hour; and it takes more air to burn that much fuel that fast than will fit through a MAF which is why you'd need to get a S/D setup to make that motor come anywhere near meeting its full potential.

 

The plenum and everything from the '91 GTA IS SD, so would $400 be a good deal for it? Should I snag it? The only mods I would need to do to it is get different runners, right? The TB can stay the same, as I heard aftermarket ones do not matter. And, since I already have SD w/ my '90 3.1...I think the wiring coversion shouldn't be that bad. I just want to know if I should get that guys stuff, so I would have everything ready once the engine comes. And also, I want to know if and when I get these things, will it be enough to hang or even smoke the LS1's? I plan on modifying the suspension, and I stated what trans it's going to be.
Thanks for clearing up the confusion.
Maybe 26lb injectors would work. I think Accel has some, can't remember the price, but they had some that said it was good for up to 600hp. How big should I get? b/c I know too big is bad. What do you think I would need? Rich from Cruizin Performance said 24lb should work w/ that engine. That's how I got my first choice.

 

I don't know what a "deal" is on that stuff, you're kind of on your own there. S/D parts are a whole lot more expensive than MAF parts for obvious reasons. Camaro air intakes are better than Firebird ones because they compromised the Firebird intake to fit under the lower hood.

24 lb injectors other than the typical stock GM ones are probably enough. The stock 22s are good up to around 300 HP as I understand, and start to have problems much past that. IIRC LS1 injectors are 26 lb, and would also work. They are good past 400 HP.

I agree, the stock TB and plenum should be adequate. Stick with your plan of replacing the runners though, the stockers will kill the flow you would have otherwise gained from the heads and intake.

You probably won't quite keep up with the LS1s but you won't be off by much. At least it'll look to a bystander as if it's a race, which it wouldn't with a stock TPI.

 

Anything that I could do differently/add/change to keep up w/ or beat LS1's? I thought for sure, w/ that combo, and that price tag (around $8k or so), that I would be in the ballpark to be a monster on the streets.

 

$8K to beat an LS1? you could buy a complete Ls1 for ~half that.
maybe look into a possible LS1 swap into your car?

 

LS1 will require MUCH modifying from what I've read. I don't want to go into all that. That Crate TPI would be like just swapping in an L98 (in terms of bolting on, wiring, etc.)...so, that's why I see it as a better alternative. Ijust thought it would have more ***** than one is being proclaimed.

 

Also, how can an LS1 smoke that TPI engine from sdpc? Sdpc also has the LS1 engine, more $$, but less hp ratings. The tpi was like 359 or so, and the LS1 was 330. And if the 20% loss through the drivetrain is true, I'd still be winning w/ the TPI. That cannot be true, b/c I've seen stock LS1's dyno'd at 330 or so...so, how could that only be a flywheel rating? How could that TPI be only putting out 280 somethin', or 300 at the wheels? I don't understand. If you match everything through...w/ the trans, etc...it should give you that rating that sdpc said, or even more.

 

Right, when you've "seen" LS1s dyno'ed at 330 HP, that was at the rear wheels; their crank HP is in the 375-390 range. That's as the motor comes, installed in a car, from the factory, off the showroom floor. It's easy to get over 400 HP out of one without even turning a bolt; and near 500 with heads and a cam. On the other hand, your proposed 340 or so, will be pretty much maxed out; little or no room for further gains without major alteration, becuase it will still be TPI.

350 HP at the crank will dyno 285 or so at the wheels. So, you're still 40 or 45 HP shy of a stock LS1, as far as what you'll see on the chassis dyno. But with good traction, good driving, a well-chosen converter, etc. etc., you can minimize the differences.

Here's a chassis dyno graph of a near-stock LS1 car with headers and stock heads, before and after a cam swap. Looks to me like it was about 380 before the swap, and about 475 after. http://www.thunderracing.com/index.c...t&contentid=45 Here's a chassis dyno pull of a heads/cam LS1 car with significant mods. http://www.thunderracing.com/index.c...t&contentid=49 Keep in mind, this is a chassis dyno, so these numbers are after all drivetrain losses. This is why your proposed build-up isn't in LS1 territory.

But that's no reason not to do what you want to so, which is to get the most you can out of what you've got to work with. Just be realistic, and know ahead of time that the LS1 cars are still out of your reach.

 

Ok, so say I went a different route. Say I went w/ a different crate engine. What can I use that is 100% emissions legal, and still somewhere around the same cost? I don't nearly want to go over $8G's for the buildup. Also, didn't want to do major modifications to make a different crate work. What about those efi kits from accel? Not sure if they are Emissions legal, but still, those are around $2800 in themselves. Any idea's I can go where I can still keep FI, but get in "LS1 territory" w/o spending a bundle?

 

The DFI will not help, at least not that much. What it is for is to allow you to tune yoru computer-controlled FI beyond the limits imposed by the stock computers.

Power does not come from computers. Power comes from flow: gasoline molecules per minute, plus air molecules per minute. If you don't have the flow, you can't make the power. Period. That's why carbs still, to this day, make more power than FI, especially once you get beyond street applications; they can deliver the gasoline and air, if the motor can consume it, and aren't "fooled" by erratic idling cams, aren't subject to maxed duty cycle injectors, and cost a tiny fraction of a competitive FI system.

Basically, there is no Gen 1 small block that will make more power than the LS1 while remaining 1990 emissions legal in the strictest sense. Depending on your local laws, it may be possible to get various things through inspection, but that's a whole different matter.

The best way to that goal would be to get a LS1 out of a wrecked car, and mod that instead. Or, adjust your goal to be more in accordance with reality.

 

You can only do SFI w/ LS1's? They have a lot of power, and are still fuel injected. I'm not saying carbs are not good, just, for emissions, not the best choice. I know you can make carbs emissinos legal, but I'm guessing it would be harder than just sticking w/ FI.
The emissions testing here just has to pass the sniffer. It doesn't go through a visual inspection. I've spoken w/ a guy from there, and he said they do not care what's under the hood, as long as the emissions equipment is in tact and fuctional, and isn't putting out emissions. He said generally, you have to either swap out the same year engine, or, go w/ newer than what you had. If you go older, chances are, you won't pass.
So, in those regards, isn't $8k or so a lot to still not be that far up there on the horsepower boards w/ that tpi? I mean, I'm not building a drag car, I just want power. I also want to be able to beat Rustands and Cobra's...How would that do in those regards?
I guess I'm still leaning towards TPI, b/c I HAVE seen some promising results from other members...just, don't know if it's in the cards for me. Also, wouldn't all that torque that TPI engine puts out make up for the "somewhat" low 330 or so horse?