decided to take a trip to a shop where they rebuild heads to ask for prices on rebuilt 083's for my car. spoke with the main guy there.

1. he said all iron heads for these cars are vortec

2. he said in all these years of experience he's never heard of GM putting stock 64cc heads on cars. only 76cc. wanted me to call the dealership and verify the size of the chamber.

3. i told him i have the wrong heads for that motor. he said i can't tell if they're the right ones or wrong ones just by the casting #.

4. he said 010 heads are the same thing as 083.

5. when he checked his computer for heads for 91 L98 VIN 8 TPI, like 10 different #'s came up. so he said all these heads will work.

6. asked where i got my info from. i told him some article. he said sometimes articles are full of ****.

granted i'm still somewhat of a novice when it comes to heads and their history and applications. but everything i've been reading so far contradicts what he told me. is it possible that i may have missed something and everything he said was true?? so i'm guessing if i ever bring my car there, they'll put any head they feel like choosing from their whole selection of 350 heads.

 

1. Nope, wrong. Vortecs never came with these cars... or any car for that matter.

2. There were lots of 64cc heads. Most were pre-'71 though, but the high performance 3rdgens had them.

3. Yes you can, if you know what heads your type of engine (L98 in this case) came with, which you do.

4. 010 is a block casting number... never of heads with a 010 casting...

5. Any SBC head will fit on your engine. ANY head. '55-'9X will fit.

6. I think HE is f.o.s.

I'd take your heads and run... this guy has no idea what he is talking about, and sounds a little shady.

 

I'd suggest not having any work done there! Sounds like they are amateur morons.

 

heres a lil hint.


these cars have been out for over 20 years.
only in the past 3-5 years or so has the knowlage, technology, and corss parts for engines,chassis,brakes, ect been around.


The greater majority of car people in this world have no idea about the stuff we know about our cars. i know a hell of alot about the 3rdgen camaro. i dont know jack about monte carlos or mustangs, except what transfers over. its the same for most other people

ESPECIALLY older hot rodders who have been doing this for decades. best advice i can give you, know your stuff yourself before you get work done.

to any performance head shop, it shouldnt matter what came stock. what matters is that they can be made to work for your motor if they know how.



that guy however sounds pretty full of either **** or himself. or both.. id find a diff shop that didnt ask what car they came out of, but what the casting number is and what you want done.

 

The guy you talked to is probabily a Ford Lover or something.

Find another shop.

 

I beg to differ (with your approval, of course). It sounds as if these people are professional morons, elevating their moronic state to nearly an art form. Just semantics, I know, but they have obviously worked long and hard to become the best morons thay can possibly be. Let's give tham all the credit they have earned.

I wouldn't allow these people to even clean my parts in their hot caustic tank, let alone allow them to touch them with any tooling. Speaking of "tools", ask this guy to log in here so we can all "learn" something new...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mr. Dude_1 - Excellent advice. Know something about the process so you can make educated decisions. It sounds like llvll made a very good decision and left before he got injured.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Air,

I'd heartily agree with your reply to #6.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

llvll,

What castings do you have, and what is the project that you are currently performing? Maybe we can help a bit.

 

damn what a relief. i thought all you guys had been wrong all this time. i was like wtf. this isn't what i read on TGO and the people there know their **** when it comes to these cars. i've had the same thing happend to me before at the junk yards.

it is very true. if we dont learn about these cars in and out we're gonna get burned. i speak from experience.

Vader:

i have the 191 heads on my car right now which from what i read are crappy truck heads. mechanic put 'em on a long time ago. back when i was so ignorant about thirdgens it wasn't even funny. so now i'm lookin for the actual stock heads to put in. can't afford aftermarket ones, and would rather put stock in so later on i have an easier time playing with prom burning which is something i'll need to learn. for now this is my project but eventually would like to get this car down to low 13s/high 12s with the TPI. i kept running high 14s with the mods listed, and when i had the car dynoed it veryfied a problem. this is the link to the post i made.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=204269

thanks for the help!

 

WOW!!!!!

Quote:

2. he said in all these years of experience he's never heard of GM putting stock 64cc heads on cars. only 76cc. wanted me to call the dealership and verify the size of the chamber.

Double WOW

Quote:

3. i told him i have the wrong heads for that motor. he said i can't tell if they're the right ones or wrong ones just by the casting #.

Need I say it again?

Quote:

4. he said 010 heads are the same thing as 083.

Well..... they are both made of iron.

Quote:

5. when he checked his computer for heads for 91 L98 VIN 8 TPI, like 10 different #'s came up. so he said all these heads will work.

And this computer was a Commodore 64?

Quote:

6. asked where i got my info from. i told him some article. he said sometimes articles are full of ****.

Sometimes they are, but not always.

Quote:

granted i'm still somewhat of a novice when it comes to heads and their history and applications. but everything i've been reading so far contradicts what he told me.

I do believe he's a novice as far as knowledge is concerned.
Someone missed something and it wasn't you.
That's a good guess.

Aren't you glad the internet exists to provide you with a wealth of information found on websites like ThirdGen.Org?

 

all i can say about TGO is...

:hail: :hail: :hail:

 

There's a good chance you could fit some 083 heads to the engine with decent results.

www.mortec.com

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ME Leigh
I'd suggest not having any work done there! Sounds like they are amateur morons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats pretty good, i like it!! LOL

That guy definitely is a Professional Grade A Moron!!!

 

lol. i like the replies. yea what an experience that turned out to be. that was the first and last time i'm ever around that place.

but still no luck finding heads...

 

Make sure you recommend that place to all your competitors.

Exactly what heads are you looking for?

 

i'm just lookin for the stock 350 TPI heads for thirdgens. the 083's. used,,,,or maybe rebuilt if they dont cost too much. even though they're stock, it will be an upgrade from what i have on now. and hopefully will restore my dyno graph and 1/4 mile times to where they should be.

 

Incidentally, that was 14101083 casting, not the earlier 14011083. The numbers are similarm but the older castings have 90° holes for the two center intake bolt locations on each side, and are for non-self aligning rockers.

Some people have had success with installing the 14101081 heads (designed with smaller chambers and valves for the 305s) on 350s after increasing the valve sizes and unshrouding them by opening the chambers slightly. I did this to an L81 'Vette 350 to bump the compression from the paltry 8.2:1 to something more reasonable. It worked quite well.

If you can stand some extra compression, and can't find the 083s, the 081s might be an option with some machining. Of course, since the heads would already be under the mill for valve work, the temptation for deep bowl porting, runner blending, and gasket matching would be too great for me to resist. Even with the 083s, I'd be tempted to "prep" the heads before installing them.

 

Porting the 305 heads sounds intriguing. If you did the bowl work, unshrounded the (larger) valves, and smoothed the passages out, would they still suck for flow compared to a set of 350 heads? Or are the passages in the 305 heads not really that bad?

 

...to this shop owned by this guy who has experience building racing engines. i told him about my problem, what i'm looking for and showed him my dyno sheet.

1. he said the 083 heads are known for cracking

2. he said my current 191 heads should still give me good power to 4800 RPMs even though they're swirl port

3. he doesn't believe the heads to be my problem. he said because i have an A/F ratio line out of wack, it must have something to do with the programming or a sensor. he recommended a heated O2 sensor because the more airflow from the headers (shortys, uncoated) and runners might be hurting instead of helping. i read it's more likely to need a heater O2 when running long tubes.

4. i told him i'd like to change heads so i can work from there. he said i shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't solve my problem.

5. he said because of the bigger chamber size, my compression will be lower but going to the stock 64cc heads will only gain me about 12hp at the wheels.

so again some of this stuff contradicts what i've been reading, especially #2. also is it really possible that if i change heads my A/F ratio will stay the same? any way a less flowing head can make the engine run so rich? he said i need PROM tuning which i understand completely. also recommended i hook it up to a scanner, which i'll hopefully get to do later today.

 

I've never heard of 083's being prone to cracking.

Re: he O2 sensor, yes, a heated O2 is a good idea for headers, but consider that at WOT no feedback control from the O2 readings are used...so a HO2S may help idle, low speed stuff, it should have no bearing on your dyno run.

Ask him if he'll trade you a set of 083's or 081's for your 191's

Aren't the 191's small chamber, small valve swirl ports? So what you may have gained in CR, you've lost more in flow.

I'd suggest you follow the advice in this thread, as opposed to the two shops you've visited...not that changing heads is the answer to A/F issues in general, but yuor motor will respond beter to a set of untouched 083's, than your current 191's.

 

thanks for the replies. like i said i'd like to go aftermarket but insufficient funds make it impossible. even if i can't get decent gains from the 083s, i'll feel better knowing i have the right heads in there.

 

Here's what I've done to 14014416 castings. After 1.94/1.50 valves, deep bowl porting on both valves, cleaning the short side radius on both sides, trimming the guide bosses on both sides, polishing the exhaust side, correcting the port locations and sizes on both sides, and raising the intake runner roofs to get a consistent cross section through the runners, I measured a final port volume of 177/64 cc versus the stock as-cast volumes of 161/56cc. The port configuration was still relatively narrow at the intake flange, but the roof was raised to the point where the cross section was equal to the cross sectional area of the port runner at the valve end. Of course, the area above the valve itself is considerably largeer out of necessity.

These are the templates I generated from the finished product:

 

The 305 heads ports are the same as the 350 heads.

When ported and upgraded with larger valves they has as much or more potential.

Any 350head you're likely to come across now is going to need a complete refurbish including new valves so the 305 head is just as good or better of a starting base if you are going the factory head route.

But makes no sence to do two sets of heads if what you really want is the performance of a aftermarket head like a Protopline.
Just keep driving the car as is and save for the heads you want.
If you already owned the castings then it might make sence.
But otherwise you're doing the job twice and spending more money.

 

The car hasn't been on a dyno, but there was no loss of low end power (going from 8.2:1 to 9.4:1 probably helped a little) and was a significant increase in power production to a lot higher RPM. Shifts were forceful and the engine was not gaspign at the shift points, which moved from about 4,800 RPM to 5,400 RPM after adjustment.

The first thing was to clean up the intakes:

 

Then on to machining the bowls to what they should have been from the factory:

 

Here is the same head casting after fully porting and larger 1.94x1.60valves. Quite a difference in the pics... eh...

Flowed huge numbers for a "stock head" and the car screamed.

 

Looks good. The ones I had also got the valves unshrouded:

 

Done just right too.

 

Of course, the spring seat, studs, and guides need the normal attention:

 

Then you'll want some final cleanup to remove all traces of metal, priming/painting, and assembly:

 

Pay attention class,,, those GM Vortec style positive seals drop right on. Only needing guide boss machining if you're using a real high lift.
For the average street buildup .500" is more than enough.

 

ok me and a buddy just got a deal on a complete L98 motor off an 88 T/A so i'll be taking the heads and injectors and he'll get the rest (i checked to make sure they were 083's). so now i need some info on how to go about getting them prepped. exactly what should i tell the machine shop i want done? should i just say i want 'em rebuilt with new everything and checked for cracks? what if i want stronger springs in there for a possible cam swap later on? aprox how much will this cost? the guy said he put in an aftermarket cam in there with factory replacement lifters and pushrods. everything else is still stock. plz help i'm still kinda confused. but one step closer to finishing my current project

 

Yes, the LT1 and Vortec type seals drop right in place with a little coaxing to get the band stretched. With just levelling the tops of the guides (the factory machining on some of these heads was so random) you should be safe to over 0.500". Make sure the white striped seals go on the exhausts.

The first thing to do is disassemble the heads and have them cleaned and crack checked. Take it from there if they are viable castings.