ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I am starting my cam swap and I got everything out of the way. I only need to remove the valve train and harmonic balancer and timing chain I am am set. I have the radiator out of the way but my AC radiator (cannot remeber what this thing is called) is right in the way. I cannot swivel it out of the way because the line connected to it are hard lines and I do not want them to bend or kink. If I understand correctly I cannot just remove them because all the freon will escape and that could be a safety hazzard. I need this out of the way so that I have enough room to get the cam in and out.

Damon

No way to get the cam out without removing the A/C condenser. Neither Freon (old stuff) nor R-134a (new stuff) is hazardous to you in any way. Freon is an ENVIRONMENTAL hazard because it can help burn an even bigger hole in the ozone layer than we've already got, but it won't hurt you and is not flammable or anything like that.

If your car is currently Freon (R-12) based that stuff is worth a LOT of money. You can sometimes work a deal with a local A/C shop so that they can remove and keep it for themselves, and will convert and charge you with R-134a later. Probably not an even swap, but you can often get them to knock quite a bit off the price.

Worst case- pop the line off yourself and vent it to atmosphere (if you can live with yourself over the environmental catastrophe you're causing) You can, and I recommend, that you convert over to R-134a when you go to recharge your A/C system. Way WAY WAY cheaper than putting Freon back in.

Falconiroc

just FYI, in addition to the environmental concerns venting your freon into the atmosphere is also illegal.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Hey thanks. You wouldn't have a pic or a little step by step on how to relieve the pressure would you? Can I just detach theose line that are in the pic? I still have a great working AC but it looks like I will be converting it anyways. I understand there is no real hazzard but I thought the high pressure venting may pose a problem on my hands if they were in the way and I wanted to avoid that.

Damon

Yep, just unscrew the fittings. When it's done hissing, she's empty. Put some clean rags in the ends of the hoses- you don't want any more dirt and moisture getting in there than necessary if you ever intend to reconnect and use the A/C system again.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Cool thanks. That is step one for tommorows stuff. Do you know off hand what is involved with a AC conversion to R-134a? Does anything need to be changed or do they just refill it with the new stuff and replace some seals. Also, where would I go to get this done?

Schultzy89GTA

I have done it twice this year. Just moved it out of the way. AC still blows nice and cold. :shrugs:

-Schultzy

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

How exactly did you do that. I tried it earlier today but the hard lines sorta anchor it in place. I do not want to kink them either. Didn't some 3rd gens come with non-hard AC lines while others did? I thought I saw a post awhile back were poeple were arguing about AC lines but they were both correct because GM switched the style lines.

bigals87z28

I gotta join in here because Im also swapping cams this winter. I was just gunna let the freeon go. Its so small that you probably wont put a dent in the 0zone and its probably worn off or leaked out. Unless your ac blows cold, you really dont need to worry about it. Just make sure no cops roll past your house when you do it.

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

I'm not trying to save all the bunny rabbits...but the freon does cause some nasty reactions in the atmosphere. I like the mechanic swap idea. Let them deal with it, and be on their conscious, or lack thereof.

83 Z28 HO

Theres a good guide in the tech articles section of r-134a conversions. It looks pretty good.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Hey thanks I will look into that. Well the car is 13 years old and I doubt that there is much in there anymore. I have not had it had it turned on in over 2 years and it was only so so then. Anywas they whole car is apart I cannot get it to a mechanic. Plus I operate in a pole barn so I am safe from the msog *****

bigals87z28

trust me, the small small amount you have in your car wont do much. You probably killed the ozone a long time ago when it was leaking out!! I know Im gunna do it with the kit I have.

88IROC350TPI

Freon IS dangerous. Don't just crack the fitting. Uncap the valve coming out of the heater/ac box and hold it down with a screw driver. If you directly inhale freon or get it into your eyes BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN.

TonyC

iTrader: (1)

AHHH, JUST MOVE IT OUT OF THE WAY!!! AHHH!!

I just moved the condensor out of the way; it should just pivot out of the way. There are hard lines, but somewhere along the way there are rubber lines, you can just move it! Just be careful not to crush the fins!

Tony

Schultzy89GTA

Shifty,

I should have known that there would be differences between all of these cars. On my car it is a flexible hose after the hard lines. It gave me enough movement to get things out of the way for the cam swap and later the engine swap.

If you are able to move them, like Tony says, be very careful with the fins.

Good luck with the project.

-Schultzy

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I will check it out again tomm. I didn't yank to hard because I thought I would bust something. I have a habit of doing that. I geuss mine has soft lines after the hard lines but there is only like a few inches which are pretty secure to the inside fnder well there. Oh well, I geuss this goes with the territory of a cam swap.

92RSFivePointSlow

mine moved without any problem, same car as yours, a/c still blows cold. Maybe if mine is r134a and yours is freon, that might explain the hard routing difference? I had a bitch with those two supports though. You'll find that they cross exactly where the cam needs to be pulled out. I had to unbolt mine.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Well even if I get it out of the way it wants to spring right back. I may have to tie it down.

scottland

i just put a cam in my motor this last weekend. my a/c was already discharged, so that wasn't a problem, but those cross braces do get in the way. You can just unblot one of them, and then bend the other one out of the way, and you should be able to get the cam out no problem.

bigals87z28

No third gen came with R134a. Domestic cars started getting the new stuff in the mid 90's IIRC.

RB83L69

Don't hack your car, or de-value it by destroying the A/C, if you can help it. That may come back to bite you later.

Just move the condenser and the compressor together off to the side out of the way. The rubber part of the lines will allow everything plenty of room to move around. You don't have to hack anything or break the law by venting the Freon or do any other unpleasant thing.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Well maybe if I move things a round I can get some more slack in the little bit of soft line that there is. I geuss I will try to pivot it up. Thanks for the tips.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Well I got it to pivot out of the way. Seems that there is a little screw that holds the hard lines down that was hidden. took that out and VOILA, everything now moves.

Schultzy89GTA

Glad to hear you are on your way. What cam are you going with?

-Schultzy

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Well I was all set to do a new LT4 cam and TPI heads but instead I sold the cam and all the supplies to make some $$ for my 4th gen. I wrecked the car so I really didn't have a need for the cam while it sat. I then regretted it (because I had everything purchased down to the last gasket). So like 3 weeks later I got a LT1 cam out of a 96 Impala SS. It has smaller specs than the f-bod and vette cam but should still work nicely. The 111 LSA will be trickey to tune but I am up for it. This cam swap is more of a learning experience so I am not concered with power and potential problems down the road. The 305 is a practice dummy right now until I graduate in may and scary things happen to the car. What better way to learn than on a car that sits in a heated garage while you drive a 4th gen. I sorta made out on the deal. No waiting for power, I just go to the driveway.

Schultzy89GTA

Cool - sounds good.

-Schultzy

heavy_chevy29

if i were you i would call someone and have them pull the old R12 or R134a. both are harmful. if you directly inhale you could have a big problem. not to mention the fact that R12 and R134a can freezes your eyes within a fraction of a second. i have an ASE cetification to legally buy, sell, and service R12 and R134a units. this stuff can be very bad if don't know what you are doing.

azvolfan

Shifty,

Chris and I just did my cam today. I does move out of the way. You have to move it up a bit and them rotate it as if the hard lines were the pivot point. Try that. Also I think one of the hard lines might be fastened to the body. Follow the line and check it out. If you undo that one, It might move a little more.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Yea that is exactly what i did and it did move out of the way and the cam cam out. I didn't even have to remove those two radiator cross braces. Couldn't quite see hoe to get them out so I just pulled up on them while I got the cam out the last inch or so.

ploegi

Hey Folks..... Just an aside on the hazards of venting refrigerants. Be it R-12, or R-134a. both come out of the valve at an extremely low temp. Frostbite in less than a second, loss of exposed body part shortly thereafter. Not good. Also, R-12 (freon) IS flamable. The products of said combustion are LETHAL!!! So, NO OPEN FLAMES!!! (hhhmmm, an interesting statement on a bullletin board, eh?)

Also, while one person venting refrigerant to the atmosphere may not have much of an effect, what about 50 people thinking, well, it's only a little.... or 100? or 10,000???? This is why our atmosphere is having issues..... It only costs about 25 bucks to have the system evacuated by someone with the correct equipment, and some folks will even PAY for the R-12 extracted.... Though they are few and far between. Pay the money, save the environment.


Now then, I have some trees that need a hug.

Later

rsc350

I remember reading something on here in the rules that stated no talk of illegal acts... or something like that... suprised that this post made it this far...

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

The point of my origonal post was not "how to release AC" but how to avoid that by moving the condensser. My question was answered long ago and I retained my refrigerant. I have just recenlty read that pine trees of all things cause more harm to the ozone than any human produced substance.

SweetS10v8

I am actually a 609 certified and heres a blurb....

Its called "intent to vent" and if caught a business can be punished by a $25,000 fine and 5 years in prison. I cant recall what the implifications are on a personal level.

Chlorine is what is so bad in R-12. (1) molecule of R-12 will destroy 100,000 ozone molecules. So even a little does alot of damage.

Not only will it cause frostbite, blindness...it can kill you if inhaled, it displaces oxygen and you suffocate. Not to mention the increase of cataracts, skin cancer, and loss of immune systems ability to fight off intruders, from increased UV rays. All fun stuff

If you open your system and do not cap it properly you will allow moisture in and it can cause huge problems, from dessicant failure to the moisture reacting with the refrigerant and forming acid, which will eat the system from the inside out.

Glad you are doing it right!!

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

So am I, and I did so everything is fine n' dandy.

azvolfan

Shifty,

Let me know how it is running after the cam swap. I'm having a problem getting mine to run right.

ronterry

Holly crap!!! You guys read everything the media throws at you.
Have an open mind people, and research and judge for yourself!
There is ZERO proof that links freon to ozone depletion. ZERO
Not saying freon won't destroy ozone (that F'in lighten creates btw!!!), it's just liberal college professors can't prove a gas like freon, which is many time heavier than the atmosphere, gets up to 100,000 something feet?
My brother has an EPA degree, and we get into this argument all the time. wind picks it up...whatttt - is that what the teach you in school?
Sounds like an episode of BULL *HIT is being born

BTW: Chlorine is not man made. (see. element 17)

Just to make it clear, if I remember right the laws applied to people with 609's. ...and yea I have one, and yes I laughed my *ss off at the test material.

I encorage you to upgrade your AC system also, because of the cost. nothing more. R-12 is probably upwards of 30-50 bucks a pound now, unless you get it from Mexico

Ron

SweetS10v8

Think for a minute, thunderstorms, updrafts.....

and its not 100,000 feet thats 19 miles up

Edit: I was saying 100,000 ft is 19 miles

ronterry

gravity

I'm sorry, it's 10 to 25 miles up...

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I sure will. My buddy is comming down to help me do the final things. He has done this before so he knows what to do. Plus he burns proms. You may need to double check your rocker adjustment and may have to burn a base chip to get it to run. Is yours hog rich? Most cam swaps will make these cars do this as soon as you start it. Did you insally the distributor back on right? Did you install the cam dot to dot (#6 TDC) and then rotate it so that the dots were 180 apart (#1 TDC) before you put the distributor back in. that may help some.

SweetS10v8

yes gravity initally holds it down, but thunderstorms have updrafts

LnealZ28

OK. R-12 is NON-FLAMMABLE, NON-TOXIC, let's get that straight. I just looked at a drum in my shop and it says so right on it, of course I already knew that being certified by the EPA to handle refrigerants. The bodily dangers of refrigerant are:
1)Frost bite, obviously.
2)Since it is heavier than air it can deplete the oxygen when present in large concentrations close to the floor.
3)When exposed to an open flame it decomposes and produces Phosgene gas which is very deadly. If you've ever smelled it you won't forget that odor.

I get a good laugh at all the wive's tales about refrigerants and refrigeration in general, even from some people who should be in the know. I do refrigeration and A/C work for a living.

And don't give me that crap about ozone depletion. The only thing scientists have been able to discover for sure is that chlorine will deplete ozone. They also know that the ozone "hole" varies in size over time as a matter of it's nature. Of course, you won't hear that from the mainstream media. IMO it's just a bunch of alarmist, reactionary Indoctrination, if you will..............

azvolfan

Shifty,

As far as the cam and distributer, I left that reinstall up to Chris (ChrisFormula355) he has done many of these and knows his stuff pretty well.

I am leaning toward one of three things.

1. major vacuum leak
2. clogged injectors
3. major tuning issues.

What do you mean by a base chip??

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

By base chip I mean stock chip. I bet that is your problem. Your car will run llike poo with a new cam and stock a bin.

TonyC

iTrader: (1)

That's not exactly true, my car runs fairly well with the LT1 cam and just a VAFPR. I'd definately recommend hooking up a laptop to see if the computer's freaking out, it would also tell you if you have a vacuum leak. Spray some carb cleaner around the places you think a vacuum leak would be and if you notice a difference, there's your leak.

Tony

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

Concerning factual information on the ozone layer: In brief...

Possible link to destruction of the stratospheric ozone layer (the only layer that absorbs the far ultraviolet wavelength). Humans can put on hats and sunscreen. Plants and animals can not. Its unclear how animals and plants respond to the ultraviolet.

The elemental chlorine atoms is what does the destruction. One Cl atom (nonconsumed catalyst) can destroy approximately 100,000 to 10,000,000 Ozone molecules by converting them into regular Oxygen molecules. Most chlorine is found in the from of salt in oceans or underground. Elemental chlorine (highly reactive) has few natural ways to get to the ozone layer. The only naturally occuring chemical that can transport chlorine high enough is methyl chloride, which is produced biologically in shallow oceans. 3% of this reaches the ozone layer. Chemically active ultraviolet in a certain range is strong enough to split up the methyl chloride (and other chlorine compounds) releasing the chlorine atoms. With only methyl chloride, the ozone remains in balance with nature (steady state). Methyl chloride has a lifespan of about 2-3 years in the atmosphere. CFCs (freons) have lifespans of 80+ years in the atmosphere. Possible repurcussions won't be known for many years.

Humans produced synthetic chlorine-containing compounds starting in the early 1900s. CFCs (freons) were 1st developed for household refrigerants...They are nontoxic, nonflammable, invisible, tasteless, odorless, non-almost everything. They replaced toxic household refrigerants, saving lives.

As far as known, the only process for removing CFCs from the atmosphere is their slow transport to the top of the ozone layer, where they are attacked by the ultraviolet light, destroyed, thus releasing the chlorine to begin reactions with the ozone.

The only method we know at this time to protect the ozone layer is to limit the emission of those materials that can harm it. The threat is severe enough that international conferences have been held and declarations and treaties adopted that commit the nations that produce the CFCs to restrict and eventually eliminate their use.

8Mike9

I admit it...I own a few square feet of The Hole.

Merry Xmas

cz350Z

Think about our roof and all that rains back on us. I can admit I'm one of the first people that will would and did hack emission stuff after learning how much more extra power I will get from it.I have nothing more to say cause my car has'nt had to pass emissions since 79

ronterry

Again, EPA propaganda. Nothing there says the Freon came out of your car and makes a huge hole in this ozone layer. Not word one...
Ohh that's right thunder storms every hour, every minute of every day transport it up in the form of a giant freon bubble.

They always invent some bs crap science to explain that every damn thing is destroying the planet.

Did anybody see the one where they went around at a save the world ralley, and had people sign a protition to band diHydrogen Monoxide. These people where signing it right, & left. Guess what they wanted to band -- yeap thats right -- water !!!!

...and trees, I burn them to roast my chestnuts -=Merry Christmas everyone=-


Ron

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

freons have nothing to do with emissions equipment on cars.

Information I provided was not from EPA. IF you read the "BRIEF" amount of information I provided, you will see that it is only shown as being a possible cause of ozone depletion, its all a matter of chemistry...and that the threat is real enough that the stuff is no longer mass produced legally. We have substitutes for the freon now, as well as some other CFC containing materials, except what might be illegally produced. The freons used in A/C units and refrigerators were not the main problems of concern, but the spray cans containing CFCs and cars. The shaft-sealing problem on belt-driven air conditioners leaks the freon. Freons are not the only man made material containing the CFCs.

It's proven that there are natural and unnatural causes of ozone destruction. I personally believe nature will take its course, and there is nothing catastrophic to worry about. The EPA is an entirely different issue, and needs to be stripped of the majority of its power IMO.

As far as transportation in the atmosphere...I'm not going to dwell on it. I'm not trying to save all the bunny rabbits. But if one doesn't have respect for their living environment, then they don't have repect for themselves, much less anyone else.

Take it for what its worth...
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year