Alright I’m posting this for storms of war.

Alright the d00d just got his car the 1st, it was a cool '88 formula 305ci TBI, worked fine for him worked like new, and it’s got 112k miles on it.

What his problem now is his car idles real rough, it idles between 1300 and 300RPM, and he has no idea what to do. He can still drive it but..... Sometimes when he starts it stalls out, then it would just keep revving like it wanted to start but never did, and the gas smells really rich.

His step-dad wants his to sell his formula for a, beware, a civic. Help the man out so he can keep his car, he'll be keeping an eye on this forum.


Thanks, we will both appreicate it very much,

Shane

 

tune up-check the iac voltage,plugs wires

 

Ask him if he can get a SN here and post himself. He'll probably be able to describe what the cars symptoms are better himself since hes the owner.

 

well hes got one, he just never posted, i'll get him on here,

if some of you can help the d00d out his AIM sn is Stormsofwar86

 

Probably the best thing would be for him to post a detailed description of the cars symptoms either here or on the tbi board.

 

he told me exactly what i posted

 

Alright guys. I drove out to my girlfriends house which is 30 miles away so it's about a half hour there and then another half hour back. I did about............an hour and a half worth of driving on saturday (yesterday). I finally got back to my house and when i attempted to start it up, it kept revving like it was going to start but never did. I know that the timing needs to be retarded but could that cause what's happening? I need to do a basic tune up but i just changed the oil and the battery. The car ran fine but now it's idling very rough at start up. Between 300 and 1200 RPM's. Then when i'm idling anywhere else it goes between 500 and 1000RPM's. I got the car started and running. My stepdad thinks it's my coil. The exhaust smells rich. I can start it up now but i don't want to get stuck anywhere so i want to check into this ASAP. What plugs and wires should i get if need be? I'm taking it to a mechanic tomorrow. The check engine light came on but then went off so maybe they can get something from that. Thanks for the help guys.

 

If the idle is sporadic and jumps around while idling, check your vacuum booster for a vacuum leak. A friend of mine had a problem with his cars idle, he checked the iac, tps, timing, everything he could think of and nothing fixed it. He took it to a local mechanic to have diagnostic tests run on it and it turned out to be a vacuum leak and he had to have the vacuum booster, iac, and a few other things replaced.

 

The 88's run rich naturally so any problems will only exacerbate the rich condition. Thats probably what caused the SES. The SES could have also been the computer checking for knock. I know that will stay on untill the computer sees knock if the esc test has failed. Have you made any changes to the timing? It could also be a bad egr valve, possibly a bum module, etc. Other then the poor idle, how does it run while your driving it, same symptoms? After you get it back from the shop, post back and tell us what teh problem was.

 

I'm about to go outside now and change the plugs, wires, cap and rotor. I'm going to see how it is after that and if it's still bad then i'm going to get the timing retarded. The guy already told us he can't check anything unless it's showing a problem while he's looking at it. It's kind of like a horror movie though- I see the problems and they only happen when no one else is around. The second anyone else is in the car, it runs OK. Thank for the help guys.

 

Now i need a new thermostat and water pump. It's not even worth keeping this damn car. It's going to cost me another $1000 just to get it running.

 

thermostat and water pumps are cheap man. What you tlaking about??

Timing can be done by you, for free, so..... Wheres the $1k coming from?

 

There are other things that i've just noticed. Wiring, hoses, all kinds of fun things i'm going to need to replace in the near future. I'm going to need new tires sometime soon also. It's going to involve too much work to get this thing in decent condition. I couldn't even reach the plugs or the wires because of the emissions stuff. I tried using a swiveling ratchet, extensions, no luck. It's a waste of time to keep this damn thing. My windshield washer reservoir (whatever it's called) isn't even hooked up.

 

well you gotta get it working before you sell it, nobody wants a broken car

 

then once you are done with that, you'll prolly end up wanting to keep it.

TIres are cheap, $450 for all for, i got 2 rear Z rated tires for $225, you can get 4 for $450. Thats not much. But the engine shouldn't be too hard to get working. just take a few trips to the junkyard to get some good working parts you need. Heck you can get a junkyard TPi system complete to convert for about $100. That'd fix the TBI problem. Then just get your hoses, and wires all fixed up and you're rolling with a very nice car again.

My car hasn't had a tune up ina long time, prolly never orignal wires and everything. I got a Accell High Output DIstributor Coil, that helps with starting it. THe thing runs like ti did brand new even after 125k miles. I've got spare vaccum lines in the hatch compartment just in case. I'd say excluding tires youd be spending, maybe $200, if you goto a nice junk yard. Convert that POS to TPI and you'll love it even more. Maybe even get a nice cam and it'll be even faster.

As one great man said, "When times get tuff, dont give up, keep trying"





Shane

 

Mine isn't either, it dont work, thats why i use Rain-X every two weeks. Keeps it clean



Shane

 

Sounds like a good opportunity to pick up a second thirdgen, Shane.
For some people a honda is the best choice, they have things they'd rather do than wrench on a 15 yr old car.

 

who me? I dont need another car. My sis is gettigna car soon but he lives far away from me and i cant afford another car.


The honda is a nice car, i admit it, but the car is small, slow and not a legond in history. One more thirdgen that gets a good home is anothewr thirdgen that'll be around for a while. If he jsut tkaes care of it he'll have it for a long while. These cars are gonan become more rare and rare as people get into wrecks. We just need to make sure these cars get a good home so we dont gotta worry about that. If someone buys that car, their prolly gonan keep it up, but if he fixes it it a car that he can tlel everyone he bought at a peice of junk and made it a work of art. I persoanlly love to show people the before and after pics of my car. People get stunned. Its an awesome feel to look at my car now, even though mechanically its just as good as before, and remmeber what i used to look at. He'll get the samefeeling as he makes the mechanics of the car better.




shane

 

Heh... how much you want for it? FYI, all cars need matenence and it costs money to maintain them. The problems your having are small. Hell, the engine, trans, and rear still work, right? Then all it needs is some minor stuff to work again. Think a honda is cheap to service? Had a late model honda and it cost $550 to turn two brake rotors and get a routine scheduled 30k service.

 

hey piad ~$550 for the whole car though

 

Ummmm, no one said that i WANTED a honda. That's actually pretty offensive. People are telling me i should get one because they're reliable. I started out with about $3,500. I've owned the car for about two weeks and i'm down to about $1,700. Insurance costs a lot for 17 year olds and if it keeps giving me problems then do the damn math. I won't be able to afford this car. My stepdad just drove the car and told me it doesn't have the kind of go that it should. I'm selling my Monte Carlo and if this gives me move problems, i'm just going to save some more, sell this and get a 94 Camaro or something. It's impossible to find a cheap third gen with a manual transmission and i don't have the know how to swap transmissions. Even if i did, i don't have the equipment or a place to do it. I like this car but i can't have something that gives me a problem every time i turn the damn key. I'm aware that the car is old and will have some problems but by next week i'll have spent over $2,000 just to make this car driveable. I just found a slice in the rear drivers side tire. Nice huh? I can't reach the spark plugs or the wires and my hands are as small as hell so i have to take it to a mechanic. That should cost me too. I'll keep everyone updated and hopefully things will work out. If not then i have to sell the car.

 

And by the way, saying that it's because the car is 15 years old is crap. My monte carlo is 17 years old and aside from the hesitation that's apparently common in TBI cars, it ran flawlessly. I never had one problem. I'm a firm believer that General Motors produce quality cars. I think i just got a "lemon" as they call them.

 

nah whoever sold you the car knew it acted liek that, they just fixed it long enouhg to make you buy it. YOu got what they clal, "suckered"

 

The car sat for a while. Probably since around November or December. The car wasn't actually even for sale yet. He just told my stepdads friend that he was thinking of selling it. He didn't plan on selling it for a while. I did get suckered though. There was no radio in the car but he told me there were aftermarket speakers in it. Needless to say it cost me $240 for speakers since not only were there not aftermarket speakers in it, there weren't any speakers in it. Curses to that bastard.

 

damn, well, then just get it running strongly. Replace vacuum lines(prolly whats needed), get you a junkyard water pump, everything, replace your wires. You'll be running pretty quickly amn if you jsut get it done.YOu gonan have to get it working before you sell it anyways. Noody wants a broken car for the amount you've gott ot sell it to make everything back.

 

it sounds like the car may have a vaccum leak and need a good tune up. A thermostat is about 3 bucks. A water pump isnt very expensive either.. why do you think you need a water pump? Its a used car.. you got it cheap, invest a few hundred in it and you'd be good to go.

 

Well... sorry if I offended you. From the comments above I assumed a honda was the next car in line. I have a junkyard special too and sometimes its a drag but in the time ive owned it Ive put 40,000 miles on it and have had my fair share of problems. With cars this old and beat up it just comes with the territory. The spark plugs are reachable. It took me about half an hour to do them the first time. The trick is to raise the car and get the tough ones from underneath and not loose your cool. My car had about all the same problems yours had and I had to go through the same thing. Heh, as for swapping stuff, youll learn if you keep the car . Just keep at it, eventually youll fix everything. Also, keep in mind that a stock L03 is only 170 HP so it wont be that fast. I remember my parents honda was faster then my car when I got it.

 

Thankfully it wasn't the water pump. A hose was just leaking some antifreeze. That's fixed now. Invest a few hundred you say? I't already cost me nearly $2,000!!! Keep in mind that it's cost me that much in less than two weeks. Now i need 4 new tires. ARGH! It's strange though. Although the problems are a pain in the @$$, the more i look at the car and sit in it, the more i love it. I'm not just saying that, i honestly mean that i like this car more every minute i'm near it. I've wanted a firebird for almost 2 years now and i finally got one. I've had to replace the..........damn, i don't know what it's called but where you put the key in to start the car up (forgive me but i'm really REALLY bad with names of things.....and people), the timing has to be retarded, a basic tune up, new tires and i had to do the front brakes and rotors. I know that this is all basic stuff that's bound to happen eventually, i'm just pissed that i'm getting hit with all of it in one shot. Another thing is the lack of a radio and speakers. That was another $300 with the installation of my old cd player that i took out of my monte carlo and some pioneer and excaliber speakers. It may be a vaccuum leak as one of my lines was dry rotted beyond recognition.

 

well lets creat a list-

- Tires $450
- Vacuum Lines $25
- Wires, Plugs $80
- Distributor Cap and Rotor $19.95 summit part # ACC-8132
- Timing Retardation(might need a new timing set so..) $100

We're only tlaking a few hundred bucks(around $700) man, why are you complaining so much.


I have a working Distributor cap in my hands right now. We took it off and put an Accel High Output Ditributer Coil in its place. I think you have the remote mounted one right?

Just think of it this way, once your done with these problems, you can start modding for performance. You can convert to TPI for a easy $200 at the local junk yard. all you'll need is the complete manifold, and a fuel pump, and fuel pump block off plate. It wont be hard and then you'll have a high performing engine. Maybe even get a new cam and you'll be rolling.




Shane

 

The reason that i'm "complaining so much" is because i don't have tons of money to keep putting into this car if things keep breaking. I already have the plugs, wires, cap and rotor but you guys make it seem like once this is fixed, nothing else can possibly happen. If something else goes wrong i'll have about $1,000 left in the damn bank. I also have insurance payments to make. Now do you comprehend why i'm complaining? Hopefully it won't cause me any more problems until after i graduate and have some more money together. Then i'll hopefully be able to get it painted. It's blue right now. I'm thinking maybe black with white or grey pinstriping. Any suggestions on what color to paint it?

 

you know what color i like.

But man once its working, keep your regualr maintanence and it wont have any problems for a long while man. Just clean out your engine bay every once ina while, that way stuff wont dry rota dn stuff will stay clean. Its what i do.




Shane

 

I'm not trying to stir up a controversy here, but swapping to a carb is a nearly sure fire way to simplify the task of getting your car running right if you aren't prepared for dealing with the challenges of EFI troubleshooting.
That is, if your states smog regs will permit it.

 

If you dont mind just having your basic set of tires you can probably squeak by with a sub 300 dollar bill for four tires. I wouldnt bother converting over to tpi, the gains will be minimal on a stock L03. Its also unlikely youll get a complete setup for under 200. Better investment to learn how to tune the efi system you already have. Itll work jsut as good, if not better then a stock tpi system.

 

The efi systems on these cars are actually a joke IMO. The newer stuff out there just makes these systems look as ancient as a carb. On mine all I have is the computer, tbi, and a handfull of sensors. Not too difficult to maintain, but alot of people hear computer adn they immediatly cringe up. Not that I have anything against carbs... Its realativly user friendly. The only part of the car I really just cant stand is the electrical system. I jsut cant stand problems in the wiring. So damn annoying to get to some of that stuff

 

ok, if this isnt an inspirational story, i dunno what will be... June 2003, my hi school graduation... i saw my black beauty for sale on my way to work @ Burger King, yes, the fast food restraunt for 5K.. 3 days later, it was mine with the help of a loan from my bank. drove it perfectly for 2 months, then noticed the problems, blue smoke in exhaust.. gutless 305 motor ( ALL OF THEM ARE SLOW, i dont care what youve done to them..) broken transmount... vacuum leaks the whole deal.. then after bottoming out over some railroad ties and losing my drainplug and almost seizing the engine, the car starts to knock... so i dont drive it for 8 months... 8 MONTHS, i drove a 91 Astro Van with 305,000 miles on it until the transmission blew up, then i bummed rides to work with my girlfriend.. right after the whole drainplug incident, i began working at a local indian casino and i make just a little over 1k a month... i found out what had happened to cause that knocking, it was a piece of my dipstick that had broken off in the impact and was rattling around in my cylinder walls thus DESTROYING the sidewalls... i saved up 3500 and bought a brand new crate engine while still paying my 190/mo car payment, 420/mo insurance (CA insurance rates SUCK for 18y/o drivers) and gas for whatever poor soul was giving me rides... after eventually getting enough to buy a NEW LO5 engine from sdpc2000.com i pulled out my old motor with absolutely NO previous mechanics experience, just a chiltons manual and as of now, i have a LO5 powered 91 RS that does 0-60 in just over 5 secs w/ stock motor/trans, even the old TBI unit just with bigger injectors, stock intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, auto tranny with 2.73 gears and NO posi ;-) the only mod i did was 3" catback exhaust... also, learn to install your own sound system... its VERY easy if you have a set of wire crimpers and some electrical tape.. it will save you A LOT of money in the long run... overall, i spent over $9000 on this car, with the sound system and engine... and i couldnt be happier with it... some call me stupid, i call it owning a camaro...

 

and some more info... dont even think of painting it until you are happy with the performance... and, if you do plan to switch to black, it is very difficult to keep clean and it is the most expensive solid color change you can get on a car.. although it does look really nice on thirdgens... i would know, mines black ;-) (schwarz means black in german btw...) as for performance, do what these guys told me to do... buy stuff that can be moved over to a 350 when u eventaully save up enuf money to do that, i.e. Exhaust, intake, rearend, suspension (spohn.com is the best for ANY f-body) then once you have enough money to get a 350, you will already have a good car to swap it into, and with the old formula emblems even fellow 3rdgen owners will think that your car is slow, but then you can leave them in your dust proving them wrong... just some info from someone with a similar story... ;-)

 

Mine cost me $350 a yr ago and I still haven't driven it.
The last registered owner took it apart and then he had to move, he sold it to a friend who sold it to me.
I've spent the last year sorting through a near impossible paperwork tangle, cause it came with no papers and it was last registered to a friend of a friend and his ex-wife.
When I find out whether or not I'm the legal owner or not, this summer I hope, then I'll get to begin working on reassembling the TPI, which consists of a box full of spagetti.
And then I get to smog it.
If I lived in a state other than Cal that allows carb swaps, I'd be thrashing this car this summer. But instead, I get to deal with all this nonsense.
I'm doing it cause I couldn't stand to see this sweet lookin car being hauled off to the wrecking yard.
Not everyone has the patience to deal with keeping an old car on the road, but can be a good experience if you're successful.
I'm doing it partly because of all the old Chevys in my past that I should have fixed but didn't, like my 64 Impala SS convertible It's my car-ma...
But when I see them crashing thirdgens on fear factor, it makes me feel like I'm doing the right thing.
Oh... and I have a killer motor that's ready to drop into it the day it's legally on the road.

 

why do you think the timing needs to be retarded?

 

Its an easy decision. If you don't like working on your car, you definately bought the wrong kind of car. I have had experience with many thirdgens, and they are my favorite. BUT they are not happy unless you are under the hood. Also its a camaro. Nothing is "easy" to work on. This seems to be a staple throughout the entire life of the camaro, but its the worst on 3rd and 4th gens. My rule of thumb, if the mechanic says 2 hrs itll take 4, just because these cars are like that. I call mine my little bit** all the time. It just comes with the territory. YOu gotta love it or leave it, your choice.

 

I'm kinda late joining this fray, but as for your spark plug changing, get yourself some "drive up on ramps" if you don't already have some. They're only $25 or so at the local parts discouint house (or WalMart). You'll be surprised at how easy some of the plugs are to get at if you try to change them from underneath the car. I sure was. Folks just naturally think to chage plugs from the top side. I now start out underneath the car on my back and then go on top after I've done all I can reach from the underneath. Much easier and faster. Especially since you said you have small hands (I don't).

Good Luck, and Have a Great Day!

- Vern

 

It's not my timing. I was right and my stepdad was wrong which actually shocked the crap out of me. That's the good news though. Here's the bad news- on the way to the mechanic which is literally about 3 houses away, the car managed to stall on me twice. I went in there and described the "symptoms" and he told me to pull it into a spot which was about 10 feet away. I kid you not, in those 10 feet, the car managed to stall not twice, not 3 times but 4 times. HOW IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE TO STALL 4 TIMES IN 10 FEET!?!?!?!? The worst part is that the mechanic who i would assume is in his late 50's to early 60's kept suggesting i get a new mustang. I nearly puked right there. From what i understand, the only thing a mustang is good for is going in a straight line and sometimes they can't even do that as they tend to fishtail all over the place. If i do have to get another car, hopefully i can get my hands on a newer camaro or firebird (i'd be selling both of my cars so i should have a decent amount of money by the time this happens.) If i do have to get a car such as a civic or a jetta, you have my word that i shall never walk the path of the "tuner" (for some reason it won't let me say what we're all thinking *cough cough* Uncle Ben's if you catch my drift. Hopefully it's something minor but this is my luck: I'll want something for a long time. When i can finally get it, it either sucks or i lose it for some random reason. This car is everything i wanted for the most part. I did want a manual transmission and if i couldn't have that then at least a 350 but i got a good deal on this so i can't complain about not getting my way. Wish me luck guys, i want to keep this car.

 

-6th grade spelling book for kidrcth

 

HEI dist- $130
Holley VS600- $200
Crosswind Intake- $120
AFPR- $80
Gaskets- $35
Jesters carb swap article- Free
Keep Your Car, Problem Sloved- Priceless

 

Why is it that both of the TBI cars that i've owned had hesitation problems?

 

just keep it, it will be worth it... all my friends laughed at me when I poured money into this car but now i laugh at them when i cover them in white smoke when i mash my foot to the floor... most thirdgens you see are driven around by people who cant afford to fix them up, they buy them broken, drive them broken and take them to a junkyard when they cant afford them anymore... but us on this site are a different breed... and if you take a look around some of the cars and owners on this site, you can make a 3rdgen into a very fast supercar, even one that can beat a corvette zo6 on occasion for about half the price of a stock corvette from the dealer... and if you are looking for a new car, i woudlnt go for a newer camaro/firebird if you dont like fixing stuff.. id go for a 67-78 model if you dont want emissions to deal with or 78-82 just because they have less crap in the way of doing your own work. If you look around you can find a 67-69 with working everything that just needs to be shown a little love for about $7000, but be prepared to get the restoration bug and you will end up pouring a lot more money in parts into those, but a lot less labor because most of it is moderately easy to do yourself... but whatever you decide to do, keep an F-body by your side.. it might moan, groan, stall, whine, slurp, burp, pop, bang or bump a few times... but all those are worth it when you hear it scream down the road ;-)

 

if both of your tbi systems were still stock, thats why... the stock tbi system is a very ristrictive system for airflow... you need airflow to produce quick responses.. that and the 1-11/16" throttle bores dont really help... even with my 350TBI my car doesnt jump as well as she should.. but ive seen TBI cars than can beat modern SS camaros.. so it all depends on how you do it

 

So...you have a blown head gasket?

 

There are a lot of things that could be the source of the trouble.
But basically, with the injectors placed as far away from the intake valve, as they are with a TBI, there has to be a signal to increase the fuel flow the instant your foot pushes down on the pedal. Without that, there's a bog.
Possibly something is out of adjustment, or there's a loose connection.
If everything is in tune including a new O2 sensor and all the connections are clean and the vaccum lines are good, you can begin testing your sensors with a digital multitester.
First get a good book on EFI troubleshooting.
I'd start with testing the TPS.
Or maybe you're in open loop, cause the CTS is not sending a signal to the ECM.
Just 2 of several possibilities.