After getting sick of smoking, I decided to put seals on the ol' camaro. I learned...

-It takes at least 4-5 hours.
-I decided against putting seals on the exhaust valve, as this increases wear significantly.
-My motor already had positive seals on the intake valves, but they were brittle and worn.
-The exhaust side of the valve cover gasket was burnt to the point that it broke. The oil was forming a stalagtite of carbon on the valve cover.


But most importantly----IT DID NOT STOP THE SMOKING!!!

I am convinced that the oil is seeping down the exhaust valves into the exhaust, where it is burnt and creates the smoke. It does not smoke on start up. I am not taking the damn thing apart again, and will now live with the smoke, and tell myself that it is making the exhaust valves happy. :lala: since I know it is not being burnt in the combustion chambers.

I HIGHLY RECCOMMEND USING UMBRELLA SEALS on the exhaust valves.

 

Dunno about that.

Uh yeah. You always use positive seals (umbrella) on all 16.

Notes from my last set I did on an '88 LG4:

I used 2 intake sets by Fel-Pro to get 16 umbrellas.

Later, I checked at Napa and they listed individual positive-seal type exhaust seals and were cheaper than autozone.

The heads had pushrod guide slots, and the rockers were guided too. I did some reading on here and I'm not alone.

The engine I did them on was fouling plugs badly: see http://chevyefi.com/badplug.jpg

It stopped smoking at startup and at stoplights after I did them. I did all 16.

 

Umbrella seals are not positive seals. The guide wear I am talking about is on the guide boss, not the pushrod guides.

 

I would suggest positives on both. Valve seals do not increase wear. Their job is simple. To prevent excessive amounts of oil from entering the combustion chamber.

if it doesn't smoke at startup, Why did you even bother with the valve seals? Valve seals only really smoke at startup, when the oil has enough time to seep down the valve stem. When the engine is running, the valve is moving up and down so fast, and the oil circulation is too rapid for oil to seep down. That being said, again, if it doesn'smoke at startup, I don't think it's the valve seals fault.

What is the "exhaust side" of the valve cover? The side that is on the manifold/header side? I doubt it's burnt. Try old and hard rather.

And no, umbrella seals are not positive. Umbrellas ride up and down the valve stem itself, positives are fixed around the guide boss. Umbrellas more or less deflect oil, positives act as an actual barrier.

 

thanks for the clarity; both of you. The ones I used are positives that stay secured around the boss and have multi-ridges around the valve stem.

so far, so good.

 

I'm not realpower, but here it goes:

An umbrella seal controls the amount of oil the valve guide receives by deflecting oil splash away from the guide. Umbrella seals also move (up and down with the valve stem).

Positive seals are fixed (do not move) and provide a tigher fitting seal than the umbrellas. Their method of oil control is preventing it from running down the stem, rather than deflecting excess oil. Wait, I'm repeating myself....

A side note as to seals for exhaust versus intake: keep in mind, there are sever al different materials used in making valve seals. Basically, for exhaust, I only use Viton or Teflon. Anything else, really doesn't cut it.

*edit* This was in response you your question "define postive seals please" before you edited.

 

sorry about that. I read his post, then posted, then yours. I appreciate your time on this, since I didn't have the pos. vs. umbrella bit sorted out.

 

So what do you guys think? Since it no longer smokes on startup (it did before) but it smokes at idle after awhile, do you think it is oil seeping down the exhaust valve and getting into the exhaust and burning or do you think it is rings?

 

I highly doubt any of the valve seals are in question here.

Do a leak down test. That will tell you the integrity (or lack thereof) of the rings.

 

Like mentuioned in Steakmans post you should run a leak down test to make sure. New valve guide seals all around reguardless of what type will help alot especially since the exhaust side seals wear quicker then the intake side.

 

I am here to tell you, valve guide seals can do that, and you should do all 16, not just 8. My car doesn't smoke anymore and it used to smoke like a chimney.

 

Well, I am not inclined to do a leakdown test, because if it is the rings, I can't do anything about it. But I will say that I could hear air escaping on all 8 cylinders when I changed the valve seals. If worse comes to worse, I have a fresh motor sitting here.

 

Well a bit of air coming out is normal. The rings make the seal, its by no means perfect containment on either end.
Also should mention valve guides wear out too which most people on this board tend to forget and blame premature valve seal failure on crappy seals.

I would suggest you replace the exhaust side seals at a bare minimum and complete the job.

 

I believe that is what I will do when I get the time!!

 

SBC guides aren't a big problem. If you've got 60k on a set of seals and it's smoking on startup, it's the seals.

 

If it smokes after it has idled a bit, it's the rings. Do a leakdown! So what if you can't do anything about it, at least you will know for sure

Also, if your valve guides are really worn out, no seal in the world will stop oil from coming down around them for long.

 

Both the Gen I SBC and the Ford 4.6 will begin to smoke at idle with zero ring problems and bad valve guide seals. Burning engine oil has to come from someplace, but it doesn't have to be the rings in that case.

 

I don't disagree with that, however in his case I do believe he has a ring issue.

 

I finished the job this weekend....and cleaned the heads a bit. Now it doesn't smoke a bit...although I worry about the guide longevity now. I also replaced the injectors, which cured the random misfire, although it seems to take a little longer to start now. Oh well, it runs pretty good!!!


thanks guys!

 

.

 

Here are the ones I used. I like the rubber ones because they don't seal quite as well, which makes the guide lubricated better.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...spagename=WD1V

 

Im removing my right head this weekend because i tried to stop the smoking and i changed the valve seals and i saw that one of the valves was slightly damaged. The smoking didnt stop so its probably a bad valve seat that causes it to smoke. I did a leak down test and that was just fine.

 

If you did a leakdown on that cylinder and it was fine then the seat is probably okay. What kind of damage did you see on the valve?

 

It looks like the valve had contact with something i saw it when i removed the valve seal.

 

so with this all said. do you want to use positive locks on the exhaust ? anyone tell me wich 1 is the right one for the exhaust ? felpro-ss10058 felpro-ss72877 have 72527 for the intake, just would like to know which ones are best for exhaust. going to replace them asap. thanks