cam-

LS1 swaps are not low buck. I'm not saying you couldn;t swap one cheaper than building up a strong small block but I agree with above comments on the AFR's. With the right cam you should be in the 450 plus range.

MrDude_1

hate to burst yer bubble there pasky, but thats what i did.

took me a whole half hour between the time i started putting the motor mounts on, until the motor was in..


now, yes, i do have a SBC tubular Kmember, but even with the stocker, swap motor mounts, and it DROPS RIGHT IN.

use a T56 crossmember, that bolts in easily.... driveshaft and TQ arm bolt right on... with the proper motor mounts, ofcourse it fits on no prob.

the wiring is pretty easy.(if you know how to connect wires). the cooling hoses are easy if you know the partnumbers (they're online)... the fuel system is pretty easy.....
hardest thing is the exhaust Ypipe.. and thats because i dont have a chopsaw (yet).

ive had SBC swaps that were harder.

MrDude_1

no, they arnt low buck.


but niether is a 450hp SBC



btw, that SBC, is that flywheel HP or rear wheel hp?


because with a cam swap ($600) a LS1 can put down 380-400+ to the rear wheels easily... working backwards, thats over that mark.


take the price of a T56 swap (~$2,000).. add the cost of AFR heads and a cam (~$2000) add in the price of a strong shortblock
(~$1000 if you're cheap)
you just spent 5K too...

diff is, you can space it out, but with the LS1, its a big drop all at once....

you can somewhat offset the price by selling your SBC stuffs... but that would depend on the person.




either way though, its a option, basied on the individuals situation, prefrences, ect..... but dont argue about price and claim equal performance... niether one is cheap at highish powerlevels.

cam-

Hey man you dont have to convince me I'm already in!

As far as the mods go MrDude you are correct that the potential for high amounts of power with simple mods can certainly be had with the LS1. Man a set of longtubes and a good cam can get you in the 400+ RWHP range. I cant wait

MrDude_1

hehe,yea.. mines running and im still excited over it.....

and just because i took pics lastnight... heres a pic.

cam-

Nice! I was thinking on running the air intake over to the pass side why did you go to the drivers?

MrDude_1

because my battery is on the other side.

only thing i the drivers side was the old cruise, vapor canister, and orb of power.




thats temp btw.. i have a 4" dia piece of alum piping.. once everything is cut and fitted, im getting it bent so the single polished alum pipe goes from the throttle body all the way down to the filter.. with the maf relocated right between the filter and tube end... at that point, i'll also use a GM 85mm MAF..

cam-

Do you happen to know if all LS1 MAF's are compatable. I did not get one with my engine and need to buy one but was unsure if I needed the same year as the engine. I posted up about this on LS1tech but got nothing.

MrDude_1

99+ are the same from what ive been told.
98s are diffrent.. for alot of things..



just for the heck of it, heres my TEMP air intake...

eventually it'll be thru the "battery tray" and under the car so its a cold air intake.... right now, its just because i dont like running the car without a filter..... (but i like running the car)




get a load of the size of my air filter...... and they say size doesnt mean anything...



(if you're curious, that wire sitting next to the filter goes to my amps... before im done, it'll be routed under the engine and attach to the back of the alternator, with a inline fuse under there somewhere... )

cam-

Same plan I had. Relocate the battery to the spare tire area. Probably get one of those gel cel jobs for safety and run the air intake through the battery tray. Its the only place on my car that has a little rust anyway. Dang batteries.

Anyways what about your front springs? I will be swapping mine as I am sure the front will rise up quite a bit so what are your thoughts?

MrDude_1

i never liked relocating batterys......



anyhoo, i cut a little over half a coil off my front springs before i put them in there....... the nose is still higher then the rear.

im probly going to cut them again... for now.

after i get it running, ect.... i plan to have all 4 corners put on scales and get my weights.... then i can just order some custom springs.... until then, im running cut stockers. not the coolest setup, but it works for now. this isnt my current daily driver, so theres not alot of "just for now" things on the car.. but thats one of them....

cam-

Once again that was what I was thinking of doing for now until I or someone else weighed one to see whats required. I was thinking about getting some six banger springs to cut so the rate does not get too high for the shocks.

Are you relocating your battery? If not how do you plan on running the air intake in that area?

MrDude_1

im not.. im using the just as useful "battery tray" like space on the drivers side.

(notice the quote marks around the word battery trey in my above posts too )


in some cars, the battery is on that side, in others, its on the other side... depends on the car and options.

pasky

That covers it all, but thats not a drop in process, a 400 sbc will just "Drop right in". Same exhaust, same fuel lines, etc....

pasky

Your not bursting anyones bubble, its not a drop in project no matter which way you go, getting the motor in the car and getting the motor running are two different things? Please don't tell me you actually took my statement literally and I figured you would have gobs of trouble just getting it in the engine bay.... =/

MrDude_1

no it wont.

the 400 needs a diffrent balancer. diffrent flexplate... obviously you want to put headers on, thats exhaust mods


what? it was powered by Q-jet and now its a holley? TBI -> carb? want to run a TPI manifold on the 400s heads? whoops... fuel system mods!

ect.


when it works 90% without a problem, and no unusual fabrication is needed, its a bolt in. obviously NOTHING is a real bolt in, but when you dont have to do anything special to make it work, its considered to be.

naa.. getting it running is easier then getting a 400 running.
no valve lash
no timing to set
no messing with accessory brackets to align pulleys.

you drop it in, supply fuel and wire it up, and it'll run... add a exhaust and intake, and you can drive it... without ever going into the motor.

MUCH easier then the SBC.... i dare say, the LS1 is the EASIEST v8 motor to work on, on the planet.... 90% of the gaskets/seals on the motor, dont require silicone... they're rubber o-rings.. you can swap cams without pulling the intake. non adjustible rockers sound like they'll suck.... until you realize that you just TQ them down correctly on 99% of the motors out there, and they work perfectly.....theres no timing adjustment, its in the PCM.... the motor is a breeze to work on. and simple to get running.

pasky

You do all of the above before dropping it in IMO.

Flex plate? Balancer? All done before dropping the engine in. Exhaust? Uses standard exhaust, no custom fabricating.

Didn't you yourself post wiring troubles with your LS1? Take this into consideration, yes the final installation will be easier but how about that prep work. Sorry, fact of the matter is, the SBC is easier to do. More worthwhile? Now that is the opinionated question.

MrDude_1

well, if the devil isnt in the details like that, and the engine/trans assembly is perfect already....... then the only diff between a LS1 swap and 400 swap mechanicly, is the LS1 swap needs diffrent motor mounts.

8 bolts. and $40 isnt much of a diff. esp when it bolts in.

in all the years ive been around cars ive NEVER EVER EVER EVER heard of a "standard exhaust"

goto a good muffler shop and get a Ypipe made.... just like you would have to do for the 400s longtubes... (unless you expect it to breath thru shorties.....)


yea...

and then i got like 7 replies.... plus anyone wiring one up could just PM me... atleast for a 99-2002 one.

know what? theres a total of 12 wires... basicly you give it power, ground, and then hook up the gauges.

not sure what this phrase means.
prep work?? final install easier?



having done both swaps ( around 8 SBC swaps in my cars alone... NOT COUNTING pulling/installing the same engines)


i can say the LS1 is the easiest one ive ever done.

could it be that i just have alot of experiance installing motors in 3rdgens? yea.
could it be that i have acres of room and the LS1 is smaller then a SBC? yea.


but really, anyone with a reasonable mechanical background would find the two to be the same level of work.


yes you have to know what you're doing...lol... if thats what you ment, then of course..... but its not like that info is hard to find. just like its not hard to find info on swapping a SBC in there....

tilstad

One thing that comes to mind when comparing these two swaps, is that you guys are comparing a built 400 (as new) with a perhaps 10 year old engine. Granted the ls1 is a good engine and all, but it's still used, and may very well have been used hard too.

Me Myself have concludet that a 400 will give me more oppurtunities to try out different parts, combos, and perhaps even a higher horsepowerlevel. I'm not considering a stock block though, aaftermarket, and those can handle alot. Don't know what the ls1 limits are, but there seems to be an understanding that a ls1 is no match for a Dart or motown buildup .

Granted, I see it as a 10 year or longer project, but still, if you want to go with a blower and heavy nitrous later, then a sbc wouuld be a better starting point, but not necessary much difference in the beginning.

On the other hand, I would love to have the power out of the box of an ls1, no tune, and gas milage to boot, but I feel it limits my options later. Mostly because of cost, but also availiability of parts, used and new. And besides, a motown lets you have a 427 or 454 sbc

cam-

Goddag Goddag tilstad!

Yep you pretty much summed up my perspective on this LS1 swap there. The LS1 is going in my 87 cause its a fully loaded car with t-roofs and was initially built as a daily driver not a race car so thats why I opted for the LS1 over building up my 406. I will be gaining driveability with enough performance potential to satisfy my needs... for now When I am done I hope to hit around 400 at the wheels and with the LS1 that should still stay plenty driveable. That being said you cant beat cubic inches for power and if power is what you want and could carless about driveability then I would have to say dollar for dollar you will do better with the 406 carbed.

I am still going to build the 406 but likely now try for a twin turbo set up and build a whole new car designed for go not for show. Probabaly wont be for a while though I have other projects on the go as well and I never start something without finishing so like your timeframe prbably a five to ten year build up. Over that time i can harvest all the required parts for cheap too which is a double bonus.

pasky

I've done my share, may not be small blocks, but i've done big block swaps and anything made to fit in an engine bay of a particular type, I call it a replacement, not a swap. A Ls1 is a swap.

Prep work......Fabricating the motormounts, the wiring, the fuel lines, etc...

Standard exhaust? Sigh, you know what I mean. Any headers for a thirdgen will fit a 400sbc, just like they will fit a 350 sbc. Try finding headers for a ls1 in a thirdgen for under $600 without going custom.

Sorry, but if you consider timing a hindrance, you don't belong near a car. Thats a 15 minute process AT most. Don't you still have to align the timing gears on a LS1 anyways? Im not trying to argue. I just can't see how a bunch of extra steps to get an engine running can be easier.

jcb999

Little oversimplification there.
My 400 will idle at 650 and can be driven away at 1100 rpm. No drivability problem there.

pasky

The more cubes you have, the bigger the cam you can run without drivability issues.

cam-

I could have explained better but this has been covered earlier in this thread. With regards to a higher power output say in my case what I am after of around 400 to the wheels the LS1 will be a smoother more civilized street oriented driver than a 400 and get way better mileage given even driving circumstance. A mild 400 can be every bit as civilized as an LS1 and I did not mean to discredit its potential for nice manners but when heads up for performance there is a fairly large advantage to the smooth civil nature of the LS1 over the 400. It all depends too on how well balanced your assembly is. I have seen perfectly bablanced big blocks running a well over 600 lift cam that didn't seem too radical until you got on it. There is no "perfect answer" here just opinion on whats best for each of us with respect to our desires and comfortability levels. What seems tame to you might seem radical to me and vice versa. All I am trying to say is there are clear advantages to an LS1 over conventional small blocks. If there were not then GM would not have bothered replacing them. They get way better mileage comparably to a small block of equivalent power and are way lighter and have potential for very high amounts of power with minimal mods and in most all cases will do so in a smoother more civilized manner and acheive better fuel effeciency in the process.

As far as swapping one goes? I will tell you how it is when I finish up in a few weeks.

MrDude_1

buy the motormounts for $40.. wire the car up in a couple hours, run the fuel lines like i did for a total fuel system investment of $60 (plus pump if you dont have TPI)
run the manifolds, they flow better then the shorty headers that fit a "standard exhaust" 3rdgen layout... or run hawks headers when they come out.. or buy some hooker ones and mod them, or pay someone to mod them for you...

timin is all computer controled so its just the cam and crank position sensors... and they dont move unless you broke somthing bad.. lol. the only "timing gears" i could think of would be the cam gears on the timing chain..... and if you're not tearing into the motor, thats not a prob.


i cant see how you could argue its any harder....

but im irritible today.

91Z28-350

I haven't done the swap (yet), but have been doing some research. I think there's a bit more than 12 wires, depending on what you have or want. I have cruise control and would definitely want that if I did a swap.

pasky

No its really just 12 to get the sucker running and functional. THe thing is, its routing it. Making sure everything looks good, is connected together, finding the wire on the thirdgen harness, finding it on the fourthgen. Little mundane crap that slows you down.

91Z28-350

I believe the 12 to get it running, but it's a few more to get cruise control going. That's all I'm saying, basically in agreement. Lots of little details.

Thunderstruck

This thread has taken on a life of it's own. Just
goes to show that different " strokes " for
different folks really apply in this case.

When I see NASCAR running LS-1 engines ( or a
reasonable facimile ) only then will I be convinced
that it is truly is a superior design in terms of "reliable "
horsepower when thrashed for 4 hours at 8900-
9500 RPM.

For now, I'll agree that the LS-1 has turned out to
be a very decent street motor making decent
power with decent fuel mileage. That said, and at
least in my case, I will still take - 1 coil, 1 carb, and
8 plug wires on my motor anyday.

pasky

Only thing that keeps me away from one is the aluminum block. Im looking for a big block to put into another thirdgen. If I can't find one I want, im throwing in a Ls1 from a truck (iron block).

THe biggest thing the LS1 has going for itself are 18* heads, thats where it gets all of its power. Put some 18* or 15* heads on a SBC and you get the same effect without the good gas milage.

Yes there are other quirks to the ls1 like no distributor, don't have to pull the intake or pan to do a cam swap. But dinky mundane things like that aren't a selling point to me considering you do something like that only once.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

You do realize that your SBC and what NASCAR runs are two completely different animals, right? Almost as different as comparing a old school SBC to an LS-1. Not trying to start anything here, I just wanted to point that out.
Just because NASCAR doesn't use something doesn't mean it's not any good. NASCAR is not the only form of motorsports, and everyone who knows better, knows NASCAR is very purposeful in what they allow to race. It's more of a policing issue than a reliability issue.

Thunderstruck

Yep, I never compared the LS-1 with the SB-1 in
terms of Nascar race engines. I was referring to
reliability issues with the LS-1.

Of course the SB-1 and SB-2 are different designs.
But, the SB-2 Nascar motors are a direct decendent
of the tried and ture SB-1.

Of course Nascar has it's politics, but in this case
it would not matter. A 900HP. alum LS-1 would
not hold up to the rigors of Nascar at 9500 for
hours at a time.

I agree with Pasky. A LS-1 truck block would
be a wise choice when seeking reliable HP. Then
maybe they can go real racing.

You can run what ya brung, but I'll be sticking to
a time proven and user friendly design. 1 carb,
1 coil, 8 plug wires. Oh yeah, almost forgot ....
a iron block.

FullSendRacing

In defense of the quality and reliability of the aluminum LS1, how about the Magnacharger? slap on 130 hp and torque to a vette ls1, and they give you a THREE YEAR WARRANTEE. I'd argue that this is one of the strongest motors out there... how many stock motors will take that much more power without changing the bottom end? Besides the fact that the LS1 makes a lot of power to begin with.

cam-

Thats absurd man. The durability has nothing to do with why they dont run LS1's in NASCAR. Read through this whole thread and you will see that this has been covered already but equal performance is what NASCAR is all about not endurance racing. To think they could not easilly make an LS1 engine run just as long and fast as what they run currently makes no sense at all. What is it that makes the LS1 non durable? Aluminum block? Six bolt mains? What about Indy? More horse and a quarter the size and oh yeah aluminum block. What about Formula one? or Le Mans C5R vettes running LS based engines screaming for 24 HOURS STRAIGHT! And oh yeah did you notice that they win almost every time cause they are more reliable than the other teams with I might add arguably the best road course driver in the world in Ron Fellows. Besides when was the last small block that came from the factory with a bottom end that could reliably support over five hundred horse in stock trim? Just check out the fourth gen boards cause there are plenty of guys who do just that with no trouble at all.

To argue that the LS1 is and inferior motor than the orignal small block is futile. This thread started off as LS1 or 400 so I will stick to that topic and say one more time what I think. If you want all out power for equal money and want to stay true to ther original desgin then I THINK you could do better with a 400 BUILD up. If you value handling as a priority and still want good power but with a more docile driving nature then I THINK the LS1 is the way to go. I will not argue against any opinions of what others want in this regards because it is personal choice. But to say uninformed jibberish about the LS1 cause you dont like it helps no one.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

I said "policing" not politics, big difference. NASCAR cannot fairly and fully police any type of fuel injection at this time.

Pay attention, were moving quick!

BTW, a traditional SBC cannot and will not put out 900HP, spin at 9500rpm and last a whole race either. You are putting a 50 year old motor in the same category as what they run today in NASCAR. VERY different motors...I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just wanted too add some facts.

Thunderstruck

No, you pay attention and learn to read. I stated that I knew
the difference between SB-1 and SB-2. And yes, I meant
"Politics" regarding NASCAR. Policing is just part of the
the afformentioned.

As for moving very quickly.... try slowing your eyes down
a bit. You are skim reading.

Not trying to argue here

Thunderstruck

87roc-t56,

Nothing is absurd my man. There are variables, LOTS of
variables. I'm not going to sit here and waste my time
discussing the fine points of Mechanical Engineering with
you.

This thread has become one of different opinions
regarding the strengths and weaknesses of the LS-1
and SB-1.

You have yours, and I have mine.

OBTW, enjoy your LS-1 Iroc. I've got to go now and
help rebuild my Buddies LS-1

cam-

Point taken. I never said they were perfect just a better design for performance and smoothness. Reliability? Just like any engine there are good ones and bad ones but its not because they are small blocks or LS1's that makes one so inherently better than the other. As I pointed out above the LS1 can and has proven it is very durable and powerful at the same time combined with lighter weight and higher efficiency. There are a lot of reasons why engines blow. Oil control issues and with LS1's specifically valvetrain failures which is the weak point in stock trim. Still when you consider how the small block faired over its first years in comparrison to the LS1 it did much worse. Back then you were swapping points and plugs as frequent as oil changes and if you drove a car 100k miles that was rare. LS1's dont even need a tune up until then. The potential for newer and better performance growth has just begun with these engines. Some things will work well. Some things will cause failures. These engines are still very much in the trial and error phase. They are not the "greatest" thing ever built they just have alot more to offer for my dough right now. Hopefully I am right and will be very happy but until I get the swap completed there is little I can say about how great/bad they are. If I dont like it I will post up that I dont. I value honest informed opinions and offer the same whenever I can even if that means putting my tail between my legs.

Stay tuned.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

That's me, Mr. Speedreader!

Thunderstruck

Gotta give to both of you fellas, you are Gentleman

Hey, I'm an " Old fart " who is still in love with a
engine that has become a Icon and a legend in all
forms of racing. The LS-1 is destined to be a great
engine as well. After all, it's a Chevy

It's been a LOoooonngg winter and I am getting a
little grumpy

Good luck with your cars/projects and just think spring

cam-

I hear that brother. Whoot!!!

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

Thank you Sir, you’re a Gentleman and a scholar, and there's darn few of us left!

I am also eagerly awaiting spring!!! I was able to sneak out once this winter with the car when it hit 50 degrees one day. Had to test out the new rear-end and the LS-1 brakes I put on front and rear

Let us rejoice together, for today is the day of the Daytona 500, spring is surely close at hand!

camaro_

I have a 1986 Camaro and im trying to build a street/strip car with a budget of 3500-4000$ strictly for the motor which would be better build staying in that price rnge between the ls1 and sbc 400 PLZ HELP

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I have a 400.

You don't want anything to do with a 400.

Get a junkyard 6.0, build it up.

-- Joe

B4Ctom1

Do what Joe said. You don't even have to completely build it, just cam it, and tune it. You could even do a 5.3L People are having really good luck with them, and the price difference is big.

camaro_

Thanks

B4Ctom1

Even if you already had the 400 and all the stuff, like Joe and I do, you would still just want to be able to get into the LS type 5.3L/6.0L stuff, but already have too much invested.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yup, times have changed in the 12 yrs since this thread was started...

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Doesn't matter, we still have the naysayers trying to argue about how "expensive" the ls swapping process is. New engine and tranny mounts?! A small amount of work to the fuel system? OMG! Tell them about having to make the few electrical splices/connections and they'll faint.

camaro_

so what all would I need to actually make the swap because im not really familiar with these motors at all and only have 2 builds under my belt a buddy of mine suggested the ls but its seems ill be outa budget by the time I get a intake carb motor heads and cam how much would the swap be realistically for a mild build