Hey guys. The latest issue of "Camaro Performers" is out. In this issue, they tossed on a pair of thoes Global "305 Torquer heads" on a 1985 TPI IROC engine. (Ill assume LB9).

it got a fairly descent increase of horsepower, and torque, at all RPMs, ( i forgot, ill post them up if i remember to bring the magazine down here to work) plus, they seemed to move the horsepower curve up more toward 5,000 RPM.

Does anyone here have an opinion on this? I read the archives, and didn't see anything related to my question, so i decided to post it.

My 305 has gone through hell and back, and even when my car was running like crap, it still works after all of the abuse i put it through. Im sad to say, im actually kind of fond of the thing now. No, not for performance, but for being a good rock. It takes a beating, and still works. That is pretty impressive i think. I have beaten the thing as bad as a red-headded stepchild.

Still, now that my car is running good, (vader, and others who followed my problem before, it was a combo of the hole in the Y-pipe, and the fact that my O2 sensor has been unplugged for god knows how long!) the 305 really hauls off the line, if i gas it, the tires actually break traction again! Still, im sadly reminded of how §hitty the top end is, now that mine is running good again, past 4,500 RPM.

After reading the article on the 305 heads, i was also curious if anyone here had purchased them, and say a new cam, and a new set of runners, etc. Just basic upgrades to their 305.

I am interested in building mine up, if it could ever see high 11's in the 1/4. (as in, new heads, cam, lifters, perhaps intake, and of COURSE Ab-normal asperation! as in a ATI supercharger), But i also don't know if it would be worth the expense. I mean, why spend "X" amount on the 305, when for the same amount in "X" i could drop in a 350?

This post is trying to figure out what the "X" variable is, and if it really would be pointless to spend the money in "X" on a 350, over upgrades to the 305.


Please post if you have any suggestions, or if you actually own a 305 which you have upgraded, with the costs.

and your opinion on it, and if was worth it or not.

Thanks guys!!!


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1986 IROC Camaro
305 TPI "LB9"
3.23 gears
Doesn't know enough about cars.
AIM: jesusathome

 

Unless you have a real low milage motor I just don't see the point in building up a 305 unless that's what you really want to do.

From an economic point of view it seems to me that, with an older motor, once you take it apart you're going to have to rebuild the whole thing. Like what's the point of putting new heads and stuff on a worn out short block which, like my 1983,LG-4, has dish pistons in it.

So I'm just going to wait until I've got the cash to put in a new 350 and in the meantime I'll do what I can with suspension and exhaust upgrades which arguably will cost as much as the new engine but need to be done now anyway as the original parts are worn out. Stock exhaust system only lasted 18 years - dam.

 

This issue has been debated thousands of times, lol. Really, it all comes down to personal preference. If you want to build up a 305, do it. If you want to use a 350, do it. Yes, you can get a 305 into the high 11's. I've heard of some much lower that that with twin turbos. It would probably be easier (cheaper) to make more power with a 350, but like I said. No matter which way you look at it, it still all comes down to personal preference.

 

Consider a 334 stroker kit for it.. That makes nice gain in HP...

 

Why ever consider a stroker for the 305? Really, that cost could get you a 350 block bored and honed and whatnot. I got a good deal here in the rustbelt on a 71 block bored .030" and the crank done .010 under for $600. But it also came with new Silvolite pistons, blh blah....

But worst case a 350 core w/ machine work will cost around the price of a new hyd roller cam, so why not make the jump since it's so easy for you (I'm going 2.8 to 355)

The money on that 305 stroker kit is better off spent on a 383 stroker, which in my case I'm not doing because of two reasons: 1. I can't afford it with the 'hidden cost factor'
2. I'm really after a mild'ly strong highway geared combo that with a TPI gets good milage, since my other 3rd gen is the 4.10'd bad *** that I'm completly happy with.


Another option is crate motor, but this only becomes worthwhile if you work 40 hours a week and make good money, real good money, but if the assembly part of a motor sounds good for you to try, go ahead and get a 350 block and drop it at the mac shop for a clean, bore and hone. Skip align hone and the funny stuff and get a Summit kit and put it together. It's great having your neck snapped back around the headrest, looking out the back window knowing you put the motor together.

 

I want to build a 305 that can clean up just to be different. I am weird about that I guess. I love the 305's that i have had! I have had way better luck with my old 305's than a lot of my friends have had with 350's. I guess it is really the luck of the draw. It is common for someone to think a 305 is a boat anchor and won't pull. It makes it that much better when you stomp on the pedal and smoke then. I have been seriously looking at the stoker kit when I rebuild mine. I want to stay original but hey if you can put a little more juice in it what the hey!

They are right though.....you can build power cheaper with a 350.

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91 Z28 Camaro
305 TPI
Flowmaster 3" exhaust
700R4 with 2000 Stall and shift kit 3.42 rearend
Autometer shiftlight tach and B&M mega shifter
One sweet sounding system

 

Well, you could looat it like i am. It couldn't hurt to put a cam in it. It won't cost that much, and especially for you w/ the peanut cam it should be pretty worthwhile if you plan to keep the engine for at least a year. As for heads, unless you can get some work done pretty cheap on some stockers i wouldn't bother. Shelling out $$$ on any head for the 305 is a waste since the same money would get you a better head for a 350 down the road, unless some ZZ4 heads land on your lap for cheap (<$500)

Other than that, stick w/ stuff that carries over like intake parts, drivetrain, PROM burning, etc.
...ed

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Ed Maher - Moderator @ The Carb Board
92 Z28 Convertible - Quasar blue / Tan top
LB9 4L60 GU2 G80 - stock, soon to be sleeper
-=ICON Motorsports=-

- Definitely prototypes, high powered mutants of some kind. Too weird to live, too cool to die

 

I like the cam idea myself. I re-read the 305 head replacement, and they barely mention it, but they added a custom grinded COMPs cam to it too, with the head change. Netted them 50 more avarage HP, (60 peak) and about 80 more ft lbs of torque. With a new cam replacing the peanut one, that isn't as impressive as i once thought.

The 305 is still pretty cool. I hate to just drop the engine. Maybe ill stick with mine, (it just went over 100,000 miles) and swap in a cam, if it isn't too expensive to do.

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

Could you please scan that artical for me I cant find that magazine anywhere??? and since I have given up hope on the Vortec TPI intake base I'm thinking of just selling my 98 350 long block and keeping the 305 and putting a new cam and heads on it to see if I can run high 13's on the motor and maybe high 12's with N02...

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85T\A 305 TPI Auto WS6 3:43 Edelbrock TES headers Jet Hot Coated,Air Foil,Hooker CatBack,SFC's,STB,AFPR,B&M Mega Shifter Ported Plenum&Manifold,High OutputCoil,Accel8.8,wires,180 deg stst,53000 org miles

 

Ill see what i can do about scanning it, or getting it up online somewhere for you to read.

Funny, i was reading your earlier post today about the vortec heads made for TPI systems, and now shifted my interest to the 350 again.

I got a little excited by the performance gains thoes heads gave in the article, they keep saying how the engine was totally stock, not even a air foil was there, then even made sure the fuel pressure was set to stock, by installing a OEM pressure regulator.

They posted the HP and torque from 3000-5000 rmps as i recall, and also average it all out. Then they boast on how the engine was stock, except for the heads. (I had to re-read it to see that they had installed a cam, they hardly mention it. I wonder if they were disapointed by the gains actually)

I will bring the mag down to work tommrow, and at least post the gains they got from this mysterious cam they hardly mention, and the World torqurer 305 heads.

They made peak HP at 5,000 RPMs, the chart didn't show they dyno on anything past 5,000 RPMs for some reason. If they don't give the 305 more much needed top end power, they aren't worth it in my book. All it would do would make your car launch a bit harder, then make alot of pointless head-turning noise past 5K i figure, much like the stock setup.

Still, i hope they install a few more parts on the engine in the next issue, so all of us 305 owners will know if it is worth it to build a 305 or not.



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1986 IROC Camaro
305 TPI "LB9"
3.23 gears
Doesn't know enough about cars.
AIM: jesusathome

 

This sounds a lot like the article Popular Hot Rodding did last fall. The "custom grind" cam was actually close to the LB9 cam. The engine was a fresh rebuild .030" over and stock heads had 3-angle valve job, the World heads were pocket ported.

I've taken the plunge. Before placing the order, I wrote to World for their recommendations on porting, saying my intention was to follow Standard Abrasives guidelines - they said "bowl work", and following the SA instructions was fine. The heads look like good quality, but some cleanup work would appear to be in order.

As for your final question, you really need to evaluate the pros & cons for yourself. My research led me down the path in my sig, but it will remain an emissions-legal daily driver, which does affect the formula. I picked up the LB9 and ZZ3 parts for $225, heads, exhaust and everything to put it all together about $1400 (minus what I can get out of the leftovers). That's about what a decent 350 would cost, and I still wouldn't have the exhaust or good heads or good cam. So, I went for it.

I say, anyone who has put in a fresh 350 for less than $1700, come on over and let's take a run out at Bandimere (remember, it's at 5800'). We'll see how you do with your smog heads & cam, cast iron manifolds, 2" exhaust.

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82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R4. 2.93 limited slip. Cat-back from '91 GTA, Accel HEI SuperCoil. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily driver, work-in-progress (LG4 w/'87 LB9 block, ZZ3 cam and intake, World 305 heads, Hooker headers & y-pipe, 3" Catco cat & 3" cat-back).
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. 0.030 over 396, 9.7 CR forged TRWs, Weiand Action+, Edelbrock 1901 Q-Jet, GK 270 cam, Magnum rockers, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" Hedders & 3" Warlock header mufflers, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & Trans-Scat shift kit, LT MegaShifter, 3.08 8.2" 10-bolt w/Powertrax, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Best 15.1/95.5 @ 5800' Bandimere.

 

Summit:
Engine Kit - $225
Oil Pan - $37
Heads - $850 trick flow
Cam - $135 crane
Pushrods $30
Rod Bolts $40 ARP
Rockers $160 Summit
Wires $32 Summit
Radiator $182 Griffin
Fans w/ thermo $200 Flexlite
Header gasket $35 Percys

Parts store:
plugs/belt and hoses $100 (est)
brakes $10
wheel cylinders $20
Spring kit $5
Drums $38

Junkyard:
Serpentine setup w/ waterpump off 4.3 blazer -$40
Rear axle $24
28 spline axles $18

SLP:
Full exhaust $800
Torsen takeoff $70

EBay:
TPI setup complete w/distrib and ducting computer and wiring/sensors('86) $550

I had a 88 trans core rebuilt w/ some of the best parts for about $300 and got the block with all machine work done and new pistons already pressed on rods for about $200

Paint and paint supplies $700
Weatherstripping $80

This is more of a complete overhaul/resto and 2.8 to 355 swap and there's probably other costs (custom chip) and hidden costs, but so far so good. I owe it to the car for the years of no trouble and it alreasy has a mint interior and the suspention was all done over not too long ago... Alot of work though since I am doing it myself to keep costs down. Anyone who could say a 2.8 to 350 conv. is 'cheap and easy' and they could pull it off for about $1200 is either kidding themselves or dropping a smogged out clapper thats already ran its paces.

Since you have an 86 (non-roller) you can't tecnically re-use the cam in a 350. I'm sure it will work, but re-using a flat cam is ghetto. You could always do the build with fresh heads ect... in your spare time to realize one big performance gain (easiest and cheapest) or little by little build the 305 to get more power to only re-use a handfull of the parts on the 350 in the future (expensive and time consuming)

 

57,

While I certainly respect your opinions and information, you might want to be careful about the open invitations. I've got less than $1,700 in a carbed 11:1 355 that made 423 HP @ 5800 / 430 lb-ft @ 4550 on the dyno. I'm sure it wouldn't be a very friendly daily driver in a ThirdGen but would be a close second to your 305 at the track.

Your information is excellent, and I couldn't agree more with the advice to enlarge the valve bowls and raise the port ceilings on 305 stock heads. I'm guessing the World S/R Torquer 305s are similarly hampered, but not to the same extent. I would have hoped they improved the casting somewhat.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a 305 to make good power. There are a lot of surprisingly quick 305s cruising around, and the engine is really more like a battleship hull than a boat anchor. They are really pretty durable and solid cases. Remember that a lot of AA engiens have extra-long strokes, too, and they make a lot more output than even a well-built 350 case. Much of the battle is what you do with the power once it's produced, so don't drop all your cash in the engine.

Just remember that a 305 build can be very effective and satisfying, but with 50 more cubes the potential is just that much higher. That only means you have to plan a little smarter and work a little harder to get the same kind of power, but don't condemn the little engine just because it can only 400HP.

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Later,
Vader
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"Let the bodies hit the floor!"
Adobe Acrobat Reader

 

I've done a couple things to my 305. First build up of anything so it's not all that great lol.

Bored .030 over
Comp Cam XE 256
Stiffer valve springs
Edelbrock Performer intake
Edelbrock Headers
3" exhaust
Holley Street Avenger 670 cfm
Vac. Adv. Distributor
K&N 14" dropbase air cleaner

The motor pulls good past 5,000 where before when stock, it fell flat on it's face around 4,000 rpm. Never been to the track but a friend of mine said it runs pretty good, for a 305 lol. He has a 67 firebird that runs 12.0X's, fun car The intake, carb, headers and dist. are being transplanted to a 350 when that's built. Shooting for 420 hp 430 tq and going put the car on a weight loss program to try and hang with the Firebird hehe either way, it'll be fun when it's done.