I just got a 1988 totally 2.8 Firebird fairly recently, and of course, several of my friends with more modern family type cars want to race me. Although we do have access to a track, I'm continually putting them off because I'm worried about the ill effects on my car. To be blunt, I need it to get to work, it's my daily driver. Without it, I'd be forced to starve to death. :P

Basically, what I'm asking is how bad for the car do you think it would be to drag it a couple times? Just enough to get my friends to quit pestering me about it. (They really don't seem to want to listen when I tell them the car really just looks fast :P)

Also, I was trying to think of anything that I could do fairly cheap (I've got bills to pay, man) to narrow the gap slightly? Listening to how they absolutely and totally smoked my car wouldn't be a whole lot better than listening to how they want to race my car. :P

Now to show my complete and total ignorace on the operation of a automatic transmission (take it easy on me, I always drove a standard before I got this car) can one safely shift through the fist, second and drive gears, or is that a big no-no? Also, were I going to race these people, would it be better to do so in drive or in DD?

 

Going WOT doesn't hurt your car perse but how you drive it does. Powershifting, clutch drops, and over reving are a few habbits that can decrease the lfiespan of parts in no time. If you just leave your car in drive and hammer on the gas you won;t hurt anything but your pride. If your motor has a lot of miles on it your valve train could become compromised if you spend a lot of time at redline with bad or weak valve springs.

You can manualy shift your auto and you can even run better times doing so. You could also just leave it in drive and let the tranny go through it gears by itself. With your 2.8 you aren't talking about a huge improvement.

 

Not true. Everything from driving to starting up your car hurts your engine. Everytime you turn the key, thats one less turn youll get out of her. Racing her will decrease the life youll get out of the car. If you have a low mileage car, you really dont have to worry about anything, but once you get above 100k miles on it, I wouldnt race her anymore.

We are all human tho, we like to punch it every once and a while. As long as you dont punch it excessivly, you really don't have anything to worry about it.

Manually shifting the gears is ok to do, but thats only if your racing, for daily driving its impractical.

 

huh?

 

Cold start-ups are the hardest on engines. That and being run w/o oil (a cold startup for the first couple second), this is true. But with the adequate bearing clearances, and volume of oil, there shouldnt be much wear on a properly cooled engine for many hundreds of thousands of miles.

This is why a car that sees almost all highway miles that racks up 75k/year is sometimes in better condition internally than a 20k/year grocery getter that just starts up after being let sit for a few hours, twice a day, to take quick 10 mile trips.

 

Yea my 125k Lt1 motor had no ridge on the cylinder walls, hell i'd go as far as to say it only needed to be re-ringed because I could still see the factory cross hatches on the cylinder walls and I was beating the hell out of it. The demise of it was a spun rod due to over revving.

 

What he said.

I raced my truck for 2 years. Nothing fancy. Slight brake torque then WOT on the green and let the tranny do all the shifting. If a production vehicle can't do that for a 1/4 mile then it's in poor condition to start with and shouldn't be on the streets.

The faster you want to go and the more things you do to abuse the vehicle will decrease it's life. Clutch drops power shifting etc as mentioned above are all abusive. How long will a diff last with slicks? Well factory diffs have been broken driven on the street but usually from abuse such as hitting curbs or spinning a tire then have it hit dry pavement or something to quickly stop spinning. That's all excessive abuse.

Building a vehicle beyond it's factory parts potential will break parts. Everyone wants that 500hp street car but forget that the tranny and diff need to handle that much power also.

A typical street car with little to no performance modifications other that the typical bolt on stuff most people do can easily survive the drag strip for years. I've known a lot of cars at the track. All the sportsman cars, 14 seconds and slower, drive to the track, race, then drive home. Even a few of the high 11's and low 12 second street cars are driven to the track. Drive to the track, put on the slickls, race for the day, put the street tires back on and go home.

Since just about everyone here will be a bracket racer, speed means nothing so trying to go that little bit faster from manually shifting an auto isn't benifitial. You want consistency not speed. A 16 second stock powered f-body has just as much chance of winning as an 8 second dragster, providing they're in a king of a hill race.

Just because you don't have the fastest car at the track or that import runs just a little bit faster doesn't mean you still can't win with a slow car.

The slow, reliable, less breakdowns car is probably one of the best cars to race. Go find a 4 door Chrysler New Yorker and take it to the track. You won't have to do any upgrades, it'll never break something from racing, everyone will know it's the slowest thing on the track but it will also be one of the hardest vehicles to beat.

Racing a typical street car isn't going to hurt it any more than using it as a daily driver. Abuse is abuse and breakage is from poor or worn parts. Upgrades are needed when performance excedes the limits of the parts.

 

the eclass new yorker is faster dying than a stock civic hatch.. my buddies raced.. it was hilarious

 

That's the biggest bunch of miss-information I've read on here in a while.... "Once you get above 100k" ...lol.

 

if you've taken care of her for those 100k you'll be cool... mileage eans nuthing sept a number on teh dash.. wear is what you need to worry about

 

You have a 2.8L V6... why are you racing your car anyway? And on top of that, why are you worried? IT'S A 2.8L V6!!! It's not a big loss even if you do hurt something since it's all junk (no offense) anyway. Hell, I'd beat the crap out of it for an excuse to drop a 350 in.

 

Umm, cause he doesn't have the cash for a 350>

Don't bother racing it. The 2.8 would probably get killed by a modern 4cyl car anyways.

 

Correct.

 

my 305 could get pwned by some modern v6s and some high end 4s

 

Lets put it this way... the stock 305's were a 16 second car.

A newer Civic is a 17 second car.

Now think about a slightly modded Civic vs a 100k miles fairly stock, well maintained V6 3rd gen.

You'll keep more respect by NOT racing them.. and just TELL them that your Camaro is faster

 

My old 305 would barely outrun z24 cavaliers. It was really sad. I got beat by some guy in a saturn one time. It had exhaust and a cold air intake but that is just sad. I had an edelbrock manifold and headers/catback. 170hp high milage 305's are no better than a boat anchor.

My current 350 is OK but still not a real contender. I need some heads.

I wouldn't bother racing a 2.8 either. They are pretty slow. But if you do and lose...your excuse is a 150ish hp v6 in a HEAVY car.

 

do you really want to take a chance of breaking something on your car for your friends amusement? the fact that you are asking indicates that you know better.

 

I didn't build my engine to show, for a daily driver, to save money, or for racing. I'm doing a power break in, whether it's the wrong, or right way, for this car I believe it's the right way.
I built it because it's the last car for what's left of my life. and because it's a product of the 2 things I love doing most in life, working with my hands, and electronics, besides all the other macho activities.
If someone asked to see it I'll oblige.
If I ever do race, it'll be at a track, don't get me wrong I love speed, and I do every chance I get, but I don't get involved in street races.
If gasoline should ever drop below a buck I'll drive it daily.
No one has ever driven my car, or worked on it, that includes family (well there's the inspection guys, but they don't count.)
It's a TPI, I won't say I can't win a race, but if winning is my goal I'd be better off with a different setup.
I can't explain how it feels to sit behind the wheel of this car, how the idle massages my old bones, and soothes my ears, before I know it I'm cruising at 80 with the slightest touch of the pedal.
I don't baby it, I punch it, rev it, hold it at 100mph for a few second on the freeway every once in while, that's what I bulit it for, if it breaks, I fix it.
Call me crazy, but I believe my car likes it, as much as I do, and that makes me one happy dude.

 

Keyword being modern. Don't race a V6, it just makes the F-bodies look bad, like what ricers do to imports. Imports can be very nice and very fast, but when some idiot puts stickers and a carbon fiber hood and 3 spoilers then races a vette it just makes them all look bad.

 

well theres another part to that... carbonfiber hoods are pretty nice IMO.. i wish there was one for my car..

now i had a maxima or altima (new dunna which one) roll on me at a light.. i was dead stop and he hadnt stopped rolling when he tried me..... never left my rear bumber and he chirped 2nd and 3rd... its a matter of car and driver

 

I used to go to the street races when i was younger and i stopped after 2 civic's were raceing and one of them at about 70 went head on into a explorer not a pretty site. There is awalys a major risk of something happening even if your the worlds best driver the other person can mess up and cause some serious problems. My 3.1 was able to hold to a stock 305 tbi.

 

I find that hard to believe now that I've owned both engines. My 1992 RS with the 3.1 Auto was an absolute DOG, and I knew it. Hell, I embarassed myself once racing a old dodge 3.0 mini van and got pulled on by 2 car lengths! My current 305 TBI, even though its slow as hell, can stomp a 3.1 F-body. Back when I had my 3.1 RS I ran my buddy's 1991 Firebird Formula 305 TBI Auto and he whooped my ***. His car was bone stock except for a Flowmaster muffler. My 3.1 had ignition, high-flow cat and dynomax cat-back. Bottom line, the 3rd gen v6 F-body's are not meant for racing, barely even ment for daily driving...they were made so a young kid could drive an F-body without paying for the insurance of a v8.

 

i wonder about the 4cyl fbodys

 

heh, my LO3 believes its a 4... i got stomped by a friend's 1995 bronco- the bummer is that he has 33 inch tires, and that is all stock exept for headers... after that i havent raced it since

 

Co-worker has an LO3, he thinks it's the absolute greatest 305 ever built. It's in a 25th Anniversary RS. He paid 4 grand for it, and when I got my GTA, he badmouthed it and basically didn't know squat about TPI. (Said that he'd sell me a complete rear axle with 4.10 gears for real cheap, nevermind that they had an open diff and the brakes on them were drums) Now that I have the TTA, he got quiet, I guess he knew what that was...

I was actually looking to buy an LO3-powered F-body not long ago, that or a Flintstone-carbed LG4 so I can tinker with it and if I break it, no big loss. I still might do that, but not until I hvae a garage in which to park the thing while I break (er, I mean, tinker with) it. And while I agree that the LO3 is pretty sad as far as V8's go, it still makes more torque then a 3.1, so it should at LEAST manage to beat it out of the hole... Don't LO3's get decent economy?

 

When I delivered pizza I was seeing ~20mpg average. Highway was around 25mpg, city was always about 17.

 

With a catback and an open element I was netting 32mpg on the highway with the stock 3.08 rear (T5 car) and 15x7 wheels.

 

i get like 9 mi to the gallon... oh and i only have about 220ftlb or so of torque stock.. dunno about with my mods

 

last year, i went 200 miles on a full tank, i was stalling as i pulled into the gas station, and that avergeraged out to 15 mpg. pretty *hitty for a car that gets stomped on by a bronco. but this year im puttin some cash into it so ill probably retest the mpg when im done

 

as far as economy with the LO3 goes, you could put some crappy two barrel carb in place of the tbi, it wouldnt make much of a difference because you still have to feed the pig

 

Seriously bud...I wouldn't race your car. Just tell your friends that the car is not meant for racing as the V6 Firebirds were developed for daily driving and not for track times. If they still bitch and moan then tell them that they need to seriously grow up, 2 fast 2 furious was over 2 years ago and if they are that die hard to race a V6 to hunt for another one.

I am not bad mouthign on the V6 engines, just saying that its not really worth it for you to race. Sounds like alot of people here have the same opinion about the V6 engine and its probably best for you and your wallet not to risk any damage as that car sounds like its your life line

 

well i made a trip to daytona beach.. i think its 80mi one way... i used at least 3/4 of a tank

 

well the way i see it, my econmy sucks any ways so i dont feel bad about modifying it this summer, hell i will probably get better miliage, thing about me is, no matter the price of gas, i dont stop pumping it until the pump clicks

 

Heres what i do to find my average fuel economy:
1) fill up the tank as much as i possibly can.
2) reset trip odometer
3)Then i drive 'till it's just about to run out
4)then i fill the tank back up and take note of how much gas went into the tank
5) then i divide the amount of miles traveled by the number of gallons that i just pumped into tank
6) the number i end up with becomes my average economy

 

i just guess considering my neither my speedo nor my odo work

 

lol ya, correct numbers might b a problem. you might wanna look into fixin yur speedo lol

 

well teh fact that my engine was a swap job and the fact the i can run my car after i took the ECU out..... i need to buy an autometer

 

Your L03 needs work if you are getting crappy economy. Hell, my L03 has never seen less than 21 MPG even with WOT runs. My mileage actually took a little drop after I did all my mods. When I got the car, it was in bad shape from sitting around, but with that dirty engine and leaking exhaust it still got 26 MPG. After my mods I haven't seen any higher than 24.5 MPG. Probably need some tuning or another chip.

 

look at my mods... its no wonder why my motor gets 0 mpg

 

hmm 24 mpg? thats like my 'D Am's territory, n thats a 4 banger. when i did my tests it was bfor i put it away for winter, the cat was startin to get really plugged (it was a dog out of the hole) throttle body needs to b cleaned, i need a new fuel filter n the list goes on... but 24 mpg seems a lil high to me

 

lol ya saigon forgot to take into consideration of yur mods, but i kno that when i get school sorted out the rest of my money is goin into car, n when that is said n done ill b floggin it a lot so mpg is gonna take a hit

 

So, 20-25 nomral driving. Just a bit under what the wife's car gets, actually. My L98 gets 20 if I baby it, and the TTA gets 18. That's embarrsing - my V6 gets WORSE economy then a car with two more full liters of displacement...!

 

well its a turbo, n when the turbo is cramin air down into the heads it will need a good amount of gas to go with it

 

in my opinion, the 80's was a primative decade for turbos and computers, the auto manufacturers played with the newfangled technology to learn more. so another part in yur "crappy" miliage is most likely due to your pcm

 

Yes, the factory chip is not supposed to make power - it's designed to hug trees.

 

yup, and dont forget that to design a fuel map for fuel injected engines it has to be graphed. well they made a chip back in the day when the latest computer had a green screen and when the old computer game street rod was the best. i bet the computer they used to devolop pcms was bigger than my closet

 

This is what happened to the L4 Camaro I had.

Mine was a 1983 that I bought off a friend from work back in 1998 for $150.00, he said it had a miss that he couldn't figure out. It was a really good deal because the body was perfect. It had a 151cid with a 4 speed manual. It was fun while it lasted. I was planning on driving it home and installing the motor that is currently in my T/A.

Didn't make it. On the way home in the middle of no where, I found out what the miss was. A hole in one of the pistons which puked oil all over the engine compartment through the valve cover where the PCV valve went. I didn't care, I had a 355 to put in it and I needed to get it home and didn't want to pay for a tow. So I kept driving it untill it stopped. I got out, opened the hood and the engine was on fire and it was big in like seconds! Burned the dang thing to the ground right before my eyes! No one stopped to help either. My wife was pissed that I waisted $150.00.

Ah, memories.

 

wow, that sucks, reminds me of the time when my mom's LTD went up in flames...

 

My Cutlass 3.1 was pretty quick. At least as quick or quicker than my LO3 now. Front wheel drive, wide stance, lighter than an F. I would mess with anyone with an attitude in that car. It would surprise you.

Now with the LO3, I focus on looking good (and getting 25 MPG).

Don't race and hot rod around in a 2.8 F-Body. It makes no sense to me at all.