Which one will cool my Camaro better? Advanced Auto has the Modine 1 row aluminum and Autozone has the GDI 3 row copper/brass(I think). There is not much difference in price. This will be cooling a 400sbc w/ auto trans(v6 to v8 swap coming up in a couple of months). Or should I be looking at some other model radiator. If you have any suggestions please include manufacturer/part #/place of purchase/price.
Thanks,
Dave

 

Get a Griffin aluminum radiator. They are 2-rows, but the rows are 1" instead of 1/2" -like the ones you mentioned. So it's basically a 4-row radiator. I just put a Griffin in my car & I like it. You can order it from Jegs or Summit.

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89' Iroc-Z
ZZ3 short block-355 TPI ZZ9 cam
NOS 150 shot.
blah...blah...blah..
95' T-56, 6-speed
99' Z' rearend w/ 4.10's

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The crazy fool racer of the UNfamous SW crew.

 

Aluminum will disipate heat better than copper and is much lighter. Get the aluminum one if the price is close to the same.

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Stephen's racing page

87 IROC-Z Pro ET Bracket Race Car and knocking on the SuperPro ET class
383 stroker (carbed) with double hump cast iron heads and pump gas
Best ET on a time slip: 11.857
Best corrected ET: 11.233
Best MPH on a time slip: 117.87
Best corrected MPH: 125.46
Best 60 foot: 1.662

Racing @ 3500 feet plus density altitude!

Member of the Calgary Drag Racing Association

 

Just for fun, check this one out. They do make a direct fit replacement, with the auto tranny cooler lines, for our cars. $165
http://www.usradiator.com

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FORMULA 350 TK
Southern California 3rd Generation F-Body Organization©

 

tom, where do you see it being offered for our cars?

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-'82 Z28 (Pro Street conversion in progress)
-'96 Grand Am (daily driver)

AIM me at: Unitedhope
ICQ me at: 77979548

 

"Aluminum will disipate heat better than copper and is much lighter"

Not true. Copper dissipates the heat faster than aluminum does. The advantage of aluminum is weight.

Here is what to check. You want to know the width of the rows on each radiator. The aluminum one is probably 1" wide, single row. The brass+copper one is probably 3/8" rowsx3=1 1/8" The fins/inch are generally less on a brass/copper radiator. Also the number of rows vertically varies, usually the aluminum ones have more. I'd say the two are probably pretty close to the same cooling wise. Might want to look into the Griffin 2-row aluminum one.

 

Can tell you that the Advance 3-row model is NOT cooling my 383 in '83 Z28. May well have other issues than just radiator, but that's my experience. BTW didn't even try the AutoZone 1-row after i pulled it out of the box. Have a buddy who is putting a Griffin in his 305 to race at RoadAtlanta this weekend. He's to keep me posted.

 

The 2 1" row griffin does a decent job of cooling even with a BBC and no direct airflow through it. I paid $199 for it and was one of the only parts of the project to work as planned. Griffin also makes a HD unit with 2 rows of 1.25" cores ($299)

Griffin radiator: 1-800-RACE-RAD or go through Summit

 

I called Griffin and they recommended a 6-582-AE-BAX radiator. That is the HP series that has 2 rows of 1-1/4" tubes. The Pro series is part number 6-282-AE-BAX and has 2 rows of 1" tubes. He said that the HP series would handle 400+ Horsepower and air conditioning. Both radiators are a direct replacement fit for third gen camaros.
Summit sells them both, the HP series for $464.39 and the Pro series for $398.99. Both have the transmission cooler built in.

9.0L Firebird:
Where did you get them so cheap????

 

Jegs, Summit, as well as other people. The cheaper one he is referring to is a generic model, it isn't a brainless swap but it isn't hard. The ones Griffin quoted you on is a direct replacement for your exact car. I would get the generic replacement 31X19 radiator and save the dollars. They have a 2X1" core for about $180 and a 2X1.25" core for about $290. And for the copper/brass not being any more efficient than the aluminum, not true at all. Aluminum will run a higher temperature for the same amount of heat, heat also travels through the aluminum better. The higher metal temperatures create a greater difference between the air temperature and the radiator temperature. This increases thermal transfer and pulls more heat out of the radiator. Copper/brass doesn't make a bad radiator, but aluminum is more efficient.

[This message has been edited by Dr. Pepper (edited July 26, 2000).]

 

OK, I made another call to Griffin to ask about Universal radiators, then got prices from Summit. These are 31x19".
1-25272-X Pro Series 2 rows of 1" tubes $181.95
1-55272-X HP Series 2 rows of 1-1/4" tubes $281.95
1-25272-T Pro Series w/ Trans cooler $231.99
1-55272-T HP Series w/ Trans cooler $365.99

Does anyone know of better prices than Summit? Does Griffin do Group Purchases ?

[This message has been edited by Hurtin4Hp (edited July 26, 2000).]

 

Madmax is right, copper is better than aluminum but if you're looking at weight (don't think you are) then aluminum is better.

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, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

 

Why do people insist aluminum is better?

Heres data(thermal conductivity):

Aluminum: 235 W/mK
Copper: 401 W/mK

Copper will conduct+transfer more heat than aluminum, the numbers are right there.

 

I e-mailed them and thats what I got back from them.



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FORMULA 350 TK
Southern California 3rd Generation F-Body Organization©

 

Ok, take your forumlas. If you put in 1 watt of energy (what the engine is producing and what we are trying to get rid of) to each metal, aluminum will rise .00425 milliKelvin. Copper will rise .00249 milliKelvin. Hence the aluminum is at a higher temperature and will transfer more heat energy to the air. I only have a chart of specific heats on me. I will fill in one more item that you left out that will start to make things obvious.

copper .387 Jg^-1C^-1
aluminum .890 Jg^-1C^-1
IRON .450 Jg^-1C^-1

So we would be better off with iron radiators than aluminum? Ever wonder why heatsinks are made of aluminum. I think your fault is in thinking its temperature you are getting rid of, its not, its energy which is represented as watts in your forumlas. Calories would also be an acceptable form of measurement.

 

I've had both in the same car and I can tell you conclusively that the aluminum radiator performs significantly cooler than the copper. I see ambient temps here upwards of 115 degrees.

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Willie

Supercharged 1987 305 IROC-Z, Daily-Driver, Emissions-Legal.
12.57 @ 111 mph.
12.04 @ 113 mph (50-hp nitrous).
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jca69/mods/williesz/willie.html

1987 "20th Anniversary Commemorative Edition" Z28 Convertible -- Super Chevy Show Class Winner, 1998.

 

I dont understand your logic. The aluminum doesnt get any hotter than the water will allow it to be.
k is not a formula, its conductivity. (actually W/(meter*K)
The formula is Q(rate of heat transfer)=(hc*surfacearea*k)^1/2*(Th-Tl)tanh(m*L)

hc is a property of the material, for copper hc is=50w/m^2*K, aluminum its 30
Th is the high temp, Tl is the low temp
m^2=(hc*perimeter)/(k*crosssectionalarea)
L is the length of the fin
Assume a square element of dimension 1,length 1. The x-sec area is 1. The perimeter is 4. Assume the surface area to be 4 as well. (meters)
m(al)=(30*4/235*1)^1/2=.715
m(cu)=(50*4/401*1)^1/2=.706

Q=(Hc*sa*k)^1/2*(Th-Tl)tanhmL
Q(al)=(30*4*235)^1/2*(355K-310K)tanh(.715*1)=4638W
Q(cu)=(50*4*401)^1/2*(355K-310K)tanh(.706*1)=7750W

Alot more. If you want to discuss the transfer of the heat from the water to the tubes, we can do that too. Trust me, the aluminum doesnt do as well there either.

[This message has been edited by madmax (edited July 26, 2000).]

 

DR pepper is right, in theory and practice../

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Moremoodthatmod

 

i'm using agriffin 19*31 and it fits welland solved my cooling probs.my car was a v-6 before. brass does conduct heat better ,it's the solder joint that makes alum. better

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86 camaro 405 sm. blk. th 350 tranny 3.42 gears

 

Relative to the copper/brass vs aluminum debate, it's kind of hard to use that issue alone to determine a sufficently sized radiator for your application. That debate would have to assume all other things that affect the heat rejection of the radiator is held constant. Other things affect the radiator to provide sufficent cooling: # of rows, row size, fins per inch, fin configuration, tube configuration (turbulator design), etc. Over all, a couple of things to consider, Many times, less rows may be better because the forward rows start to block air flow to the rear rows, or the air gets so super heated by going past the front rows that it has little effect in cooling the rear rows.

The most important thing is not to chince on your cooling system, especially on these 3rd gens. Ever notice the large amount of posts about running hot. If in doubt go with the advice of those running similar set-ups as yours or with the advice from the radiator supplier.
Regards, FJK

 

my aluminum radiator cools my car great better than the 3 row copper-brass radiator i had in my RS. Here is the thing the aluminum is a stronger materal and can be made thinner. Mad max you are saying that it takes less energy to make the aluminum hot right. Did you ever think that a hotter surface will disipate heat better and faster. specific heat is the issue the aluminum will transfer the heat better to the atmosphere by your equations. You are thinking about it backwards man. To further support my point aluminum radiators are used on 90 and up cars. You hardly ever hear their owners complaining about over heating. I can rag on my iroc in 108 degree heat with the stock radiator and get it to 220 degreese and then jump on the highway and watch the temp gauge drop like a rock to 180 in less than 60 seconds but my car has some other cooling system mods. with the AC on in 100 degree heat in houston my temp satyed rock solid at 180 at every stop light. aluminum is better.

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90 iroc l98
last season best corected 13.62 @102
mods
full exhaust, AFPR, pulley, jet stage 1 chip, billet servo, 52mm throttle body and a few other little things.

 

I'm tired of arguing with know-it-alls that know jack. How EXACTLY is the aluminum hotter or colder? Its regulated by the water, not the metal. I noticed you guys provided ZIP for proof, except statements of what you THINK happens. Get real.

Im not thinking backwards, all you guys are. Go talk to any good radiator guy. Talk to an engineer who designs these things. Read a book. Read a magazine. Its all over the place.

90 and up? Brain dead statement. My 85 TA had an aluminum radiator. Wanna know why? WEIGHT SAVINGS! The manufacturer will even tell you that.

In order to FAIRLY compare an aluminum and a brass/copper radiator, they have to be identical. Fact is, they arent. I already stated that above. The aluminum ones always have more fins/inch (more cooling capacity) more rows vertically (more cooling capacity), and in general an equal amount of cooling width. You gotta compare apples to apples first before you make a statement aluminum is better because it cooled better than a radiator that was designed completely different.

If you want to argue my math, then provide a formula and calculate it out. Better learn heat transfer first too, because without it you are guessing. There is conduction from the water to the metal, and convection from the metal to the moving air. If you dont consider those, then you are solving the problem the wrong way.

 

Well, when i was looking at radiators, i noticed that the aluminum ones had more fins per square inch the the copper ones. More fins per square inch means more surface area and better heat dissapation. Just my two cents

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-Justin-
T-Top '86 5.0L LG4 700R4
T-Top '92 5.0L TBI 700R4
My '86 Firebird Homepage
The F-body Model Kit Pictoral Archive (updated 5/15/00)

 

Source 1: Hot rod magazine, July 1996, p51
"Cooling basics start with the radiator. While drag race and other competition cars make use of aluminum radiators to reduce weight, the old-fashioned copper/brass radiator is a more efficient heat exchanger."

More to come...

Justin, EXACTLY!

 

There's alot more to radiator design than just the material it's made out of.

I have the aluminum one in my 83 HO car with a 400, stock cooling system except a Stewart water pump, 180º stat, original 18-year-old air dam. It's a cold day today, only supposed to be 94º. I use the A/C non-stop for about 5 or 6 months a year. The car does not overheat, not on the highway, not in the drive-thru, not in a traffic jam. The original copper one didn't work as well.

Seems like I bought the one the book (Modine? I don't recall for sure) shows as the "heavy-duty" replacement for a 87 350 car. It cost something just under $200 (like $185 or thereabouts). It bolts right in, everything fits perfect, no engineering required. It has one row of tubes about 1½" wide. It weighs a good 12 pounds less than a copper one. I would suggest you go that route.

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."

 

RB83L69

You refer to "the book," but where did you get it? Who was the manufacturer?

 

I got it at a local radiator shop that sells new ones more than repairing old ones. He just looked it up in the catalog. It might have been a Modine or a Delco, I've slept since then so in addition to having had to be completely re-trained I don't remember the details. There are several other reputable brands of stock replacement radiators so it could have been any of a number of brands.

They say when you get old, your memory is the second thing that goes... I forget what the first one is supposed to be...

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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."

 

Obvouslt madmax is correct about the copper over aluminum. If aluminum conducted heat better than copper your house (if it has baseboard heat) wouldnt have copper pipe. When building a house weight isnt as much a consideration as efficency. Also if it conducted better than copper they would use aluminum in your house because it is a hell of a lot lighter and it costs a LOT less. Now if you were to build a copper and aluminum radiator EXACTLY the same the copper radiator would be at a much lower temperature in the same environments and conditions. Trust me weight and cost are the only reasons anyone would build or want an aluminum radiator. If you still dont believe me go to a hardware store and get 2 pieces of pipe. A copper and aluminum with the same width, wall thickness, and length. Feel the difference in weight. Then if you were to heat them on one end, in a controlled manner, and hold the other end with your hand and measure the time it takes for each one to be a noticeable difference in temperature, the copper would be heated in a much lower time. Come on people, I am only 20 dont have any physics teaching, but I still know copper is the better conductor here.

James

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If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. Red Green

[This message has been edited by scooter (edited July 27, 2000).]

 

copper and brass do conduct heat better than aluminum, but aluminum is stronger which allows for the 1.25" flat looking tubes which allow more surface area for heat transfer to the air and fin contact, dont forget radiators must withstand at least 20psi a force that would ballon brass and copper tubes to a cylinder and greatly restrict airflow, aluminum is used for weight and strenght

 

An Original copper radiator is not going to cool better than an aftermarket aluminum. Not because of the material it's made of, but the improved design of the aftermarket aluminum radiator. If you could actually find two identical radiators, one with aluminum and the other with copper, the copper radiator will cool better. Copper transfers heat better than aluminum. In a radiator, the design is just as important as the material used. Once that radiator is in a car, the whole cooling system comes in to play. Water pump, engine timing, fuel mixture, head gasket leak, and other factors can cause the engine to run hot. As well as a poor fan, shroud, restrictive t-stat, and damaged/missing air dam.
Either radiator 'should' work equally well. Make sure the rest of your cooling system is in good working order and you will be running plenty cool.


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82 camaro--original steering wheel, brake/gas pedals, seats--everything else modified
82camaro

[This message has been edited by 82camaro (edited July 27, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by 82camaro (edited July 27, 2000).]

 

One of the key reasons an aluminum radiator works better is that beyond tighter fins per inch, larger (wider) cores will allow more airflow across them. That's why Griffin states that 2 rows of 1" cores in aluminum are equivalent to 5 rows of 1/2" copper cores. Metallurgically, copper may have a higher heat transfer rate, but it's other properties (i.e. lack of strength when used in thin applications like radiator cores) make it less suitable for racing applications. The reference to copper for heating systems has 2 issues: Cast Iron works better as a heat sink for heating systems but is not usable for baseboard applications. Take a look at the vanes used on baseboard heating what are they made of? Aluminum! the reason why copper is used extensively is that anyone can solder copper pipes together with relative ease. lugging a heli-arc welder in for every pipe repair is just one reason why copper is still used. At the end of the day the science behind the results are not he important factors, results are. Would I like to know why my car runs 20* cooler with aluminum rather than copper? Sure. Will I put the copper one back in because I can't prove why it doesn't work as well as aluminum?

David Morrison of Reher Morrison Racing engine has a quote that is insightful

"Years ago I saw a sign on a garage wall that offered excellent advice: "When the results disagree with the theory, believe the results and invent a new theory." Instead, we often distort the results to support a preconceived theory. A conclusion that is based on an emotional need will seldom improve a race car's performance."

 

Riddle me this Mad Max, how can Q(rate of heat transfer) be expressed in watts alone? How can any rate be expressed without reference to time? You think you are amoungst toothless hillbillys, don't consider this crowd so ignorant and backwards. You will find this group far more educated than it would seem from the outward appearance. I myself am an engineer by trade, but thermodynamics was not a required course for me. I have however been involved with the design of heat sinks for electronic devices, and in all my work I saw nothing to prove that aluminum was better for cooling than brass or copper. Just because I not real interested in knocking the rust off of what I know about thermodynamics and punching out a formal proof for you does not make it heresay. However I also tend to agree with the statement that when theory and experimental data disagree make up a new theory. Whether copper or aluminum is better is not very important, through experiment people have proven time and again that aluminum radiators out perform copper ones. That doesn't make copper radiators ineffective, it merely says that aluminum radiators work better. If it really interests you I'll try to find some time to provide you with adequate mathematical proof.

 

1 Watt=1 Joule/second

Please drive through.

Source 2: Mustang+Fords, March 94, p57
"Copper and brass units transfer heat better, while aluminum units save weight."

[This message has been edited by madmax (edited July 27, 2000).]

 

Whoops, but just remember that bumble bees don't fly and that the sound barrier is the fastest any object can travel.

 

 

In my quest to find the best prices for radiators, I have found and ordered the Griffin 1-55272-T aluminum with two 1-1/4" rows with built in trans cooler for $333. I ordered it from www.carpartsonsale.com although they didn't list it on their website. I had to call the number on the website.
By the way, I appreciate all the info, being that I am an Electrical Engineer, that thermodamit stuff is over my head .
Later

 

Whew!! I'm glad you ordered your radiator. I was begining to think the group lost track of your question. Nevertheless, what interesting conversation. Maybe you can share with us your opinions on the cooling performance of the radiator you selected, once you get some driving experience with it.

"Knowledge is Good"
Regards, FJK

 

Griffin radiator company admitting copper is better then aluminum as a heat exchanger.

http://griffinrad.com/whyaluminum.htm

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86 Camaro Sport
383 Speed-O-Motive Crate Engine, Raptor 700R4 Tranmission, Trick Flow Twisted Wedge G2's, 58mm Accel TB, 3.73 Auburn Pro, SLP Cold Air Induction and Headers, Hooker Cat-back, Serpentine Belt Setup, Dual IROC Fans, Jamex springs, 16" IROC Rims, 36mm/24mm Sway Bars, Global West Steering Brace. Hotchkis Rear LCA's,Panhard Bar and SFC's.
My Camaro Project

 

Ive used both of those radiators in my car. The aluminum one keeps the car cooler thats a fact.

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Black 90 IROC, L98, A4, 323 gear. SuperRamed 406 in the works!

 

Madmax, I haven't seen my heat transfer book in a while but was it Q or Q dot?

 

Talk about reviving a post from the dead!

Actually I'm not real sure... its been what, a year? And I havent touched that stuff since then.
I know its correct, we did exactly the same sort of problem in class. That is unless the prof and everyone in class screwed it up

Everything above about construction and strength and tube shapes and sizes is totally correct. I think aluminum is a better choice, but copper does transfer heat much better.

 

"Cool" (Picture Dr Evil w/pinky to corner of mouth.)

 

Ok, sweet, I got the HP w/ trans cooler from Summit for $460. Good info. guys.

[This message has been edited by BuckeyeROC (edited August 01, 2001).]

 

madmax is right about the same construction the copper will cool better. I am taking heat transfer next semester but i have had all the other thermo classes. I have also had all the materials classes and things are not equil. it is Q not Q dot because the temp has a negligable change with time and the heat transfer rate can be assumed to be steady state. unless you are talking about a closed system. Then agian the change in rpm (water flow)can make it a Q dot. I like to assume steady state when ever possible. Q = dh/dt and Q dot = dQ/dt.

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90 IROC l98
last season best corected 13.62 @102
mods
full exhaust, AFPR, pulley, jet stage 1 chip, billet servo, 52mm throttle body, slp runners and some 1.6 RR's and a few other little things.
243 RWHP and 342 RWTQ with hot engine and 90 octain fuel

 

Dr. Pepper i am toothless (at least the front 6) and i belive i am what you refer to as a hillbilly. some people may find that offensive and of a racial nature. i'm sure i'm not the smartest or prettiest one here, but i can name a few dumbasses that might even make me look good.
this has been a very interesting thread and great fun to read and follow along, but i think it's time to put it away. if any of you feel the need to continue it please feel free to repost and we'll see where it goes.

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ICON Motorsports
1st & 3rd
MM Black Diamond 538 F&AM