well i know what motor im going to use, the one from an electric lawn mower, produces plenty of torque uses standard 110 volt plug ins, it can handle the heat and the abuse.
and all i need is the motor and the small controller and a power converterand second batt, it should cost less then $350, plus i will have plug ins for other stuff.

 

You seem to have trouble grasping the problem with your plan. Lets say all your accessories use 25hp from you internal combustion engine. If you drive them with an electric motor they still require 25hp. Where does that power come from? Your alternator which gets all its power from your internal combustion engine. So even if there was no loss of energy by converting to electric power and back, all you would have accomplished is adding weght to your vehicle.

 

Why doesn't this fellow just go out and purchase one of those new electric cars and be done with it?
If you want gas mileage I would suggest buying a Chevette or something, I just can't grasp all the trouble you want to go through to try and save a few pennies on gasoline
Sorry dude, I don't mean to ruffle any feathers but this just sounds like more trouble than it's worth not to mention an electrical nightmare. Larry.

 

but gm said it gets 40 on the hiway, being half a v8 it should get half the power with double the milage, and thats what i want. plus why not build a hybrid conversion, and save hundreds every year on gas, its not like its ever going to get cheaper.

 

ok since you brought up this post again I figured I would add a few things myself since the other one was locked

nothing has 100% efficiency
so your power converter while transfering 12V direct current to 120v alternating curring your going to have loss

so lets say you put 1 watt of energy into the converter you might get .85 watts out if it is a very good converter
so right there is going to be some loss of energy

as someone else said when transfering from mechanical energy to electrical (as your alternator does) you lose efficiency again and this is even LESS efficient then a simple power converter.

so 1 watt of mechanical energy might give you .4 watts electrical energy
then you have to convert the electrical energy BACK to mechanical
so that .4 watts might give you .2 watts of electrical energy

they do take quite a bit of energy to turn for just the mechanical side alone but there is another problem
the more current goes through the alternator because of a higher load the harder it is to turn the alternator
the reason for this is the current in the alternator resist the stationary magnents


try this
disable your IAC on your car watch the idle speed
turn you headlights on. the idle will drop
WHY? the alternator just became harder to turn it put more of a load on the motor.


and just adding a second batt might not solve the problem. sure it might make the charging system last longer before being it has a higher reserve capacity but it still doesn't take into account the current draw. and for that you would need a new alternator.
the new alternator will be heavier and also be harder to spin on it's own again further load on the motor and this isn't counting the load it will have when trying to charge the batteries.


there are times that yes having these electric things will help out with power production but not how you seem to think

electric fan yes it can help powe production but how?
when you driving down the road with a mechanical fan it's still attached to the crank drive so even when you don't need the fan it's going to spin. so there is always that load on the motor
with the electric fan it's only putting a load on the motor when the motor gets hot enough to need it other then that it just sits there and does nothing. it draws no power so no load on the motor

electric water pump
that's an easy one. you drive around town the pump is on. go to the track go through the staging lanes keep the pump on get ready to launch and turn the pump off. no electrical load so no more load on the motor. it's just like having no water pump at all.


and even though the hybrids might do it they have a lot more research and develpment then you saying well... um lets um... throw this together and well... lets hope it works. they prolly have them setup to work through a very different system working at some times and not working through others and instead relying on the gas motor instead.using the electric system at times when it would be more better and the gas system when that would be better this way it optimizes the load.

also with all this your going to add more weight. more weight guess what that means? less miles per gallon

your prolly better off doing other things like trying to lean out the mixture during cruising a little more. running synthetic oil, stuff like that in a way to reduce pumping losses


but your idea as it sits now is going to cost you more in the long run I'm sure


go for it and find out the hard way :-)

 

I'm gonna put a blower on my car but it's gonna be better than every one else. Gonna have a nice Toro leaf blower sticking out of my hood. Duct tape up a nice intake and a piece of string for throttle, maybe even a fart pipe and the honda crowd will be really scared.

 

i thought of doing that to the scooter!!!!! a leaf blower would work great!hahahahahaha

 

why not do it the thirdgen?

with your thinking it would prolly be more efficient at getting air in there and give you better gas mileage and more horsepower

 

well im sorry i dont think like you, i understand physics and math, so i know it will work. and when it does work all the nay sayers ow me a dollar. deal?

 

you do not understand physics and math, and what little you do know is not profound enough to let you understand the impossibility of this exercise. you obviously do not grasp ohms law either. the amount of energy you would have to generate would take you hours to build up so that you would have only a few minutes of power to turn your accesorys, if you had a place to store all this energy.

lets brake it down a little?

one horsepower equals 745.7 watts.

so 25hp=18642.5w
your alt(lets assume you have my alt, which is 186 amps hot, cost...$259) will produce 2734.2w.
now your battery(again lets assume you have mine,a yellow top optima, 870amps, cost $149)will store 10840.2w.

now mr. wizard, tell me how it is that you will be able to run 18642.5w worth of accesorys from a 10840.2w battery that is being recharged by an alternator that produces 2734.2w? lets assume that your regulator will last more than one week under the stress and heat of constant operation(not going to happen)
without burning up the windings(again, not going to happen), how long will your electric motor run?

ha...........

 

if you know physics and math then lets have you answer a few simple things


have you figured out what the current requirements are for this task?


also if you know so much about physics and electrical stuff and since you say you want to go through efficiency your kinda stabbing yourself in the foot

you want to run this motor through a power inverter correct?
why not run the motor straight 12v dc?

it would be more efficient and afterall efficiency is what you want correct?

this way you don't have the losses of converting energy from ac to dc which isn't very efficient thing to do. also you would have to use a step up transformer which again is inefficient.
getting rid of that power converter would be one of the best things you could do but you refuse to do so even though yo uare trying to go for peak efficiency yet you want to use that and then claim to know physics so you would know using it is a step of inneficiency.

you plan on using just some motor that you found?
have you checked it's impedance yet as well as inductance?
if so what is it?


how much do you really know about what your doing or what your getting yoruself into?



and btw it's not a matter of not thinking like I do I have been working with electronics for a little while now and while I might not be the greatest at it I understand that nothing comes for free.
what you doing is expecting to have more energy then what you started with.
it doesn't happen that way
sorry

 

if it were possible to get something from nothing, we would have found perpetual machines.
you cannot create energy, or destroy it, you can only transfer it. moving it around a few times will not magicly make more energy, it will however make less.

if it were possible to drive an alternator off of an electric motor that is fed by the alternator for extended time periods, we would have found our 100% energy magical machine that makes somethng from no constant input. not going to happen.

 

another thing I wish to ask is since you seem to know the info here what is the horsepower rating and amp rating of your lawnmower motor?

I found one with an amp rating of 9 amps at 110v

using 12v the amp rating is going to be something like 89amp... and again that is perfect world there without using any converters


btw what wattage are you using for your converter?

 

This subject is cracking me up, I love the reading. I can't believe so many people are hung up on gas prices and gas mileage. Lets face it, nothing we can do about the gas prices, just suck it up and pay the piper. If you are worried about a couple mile per gallon then buy a different car like a Chevette, Geo Metro, or for the short trips try riding your bicycle for frying out loud. If you don't like pedaling then buy a moped.
Even if all these contraptions you want to build into the car would work, it would still be more trouble than it's worth.
If you want 40 mpg or more then I don't think you want to own a 3rd gen. We or atleast most of us don't buy these cars for the gas mileage, or atleast I didn't anyway, I don't care about mileage, my daily driver gets about 15 mpg, oh well, I have fun with it and thats all that matters to me.
I give you Kudos for wanting to try something like that and it sounds like you are going to do it anyway, goodluck, Larry.

 

but i like gas mileage, its just as if not more impresive then horespower to me, so if i got 40 mpg on the hiway with more power then the v6 that wouldnt be cool?
geo mileage and firebird style ,and maybe ill smoke a couple of those loud stupid hondas along the way in speed and gas mile age.

 

So, have you calculated how much 12V power your lawn mower engine is going to need; how large the AC converter is going to be; how much all this is going to weigh; and how much it's going to cost?

Until you do, it's all monkey-spank. You don't "smoke" people on the Internet with half-baked ideas, you only "smoke" people in real life with results. You get results by understanding what you're doing the best you can, BEFORE you do it. Looks to me like you've just got this whole thing stuck in your head, and you haven't actually put the pencil to the paper the first time yet.

It's all fine and dandy to think up new things and get your own creative ideas. That's great, and it's what this hobby is all about. Problem here is, you're not the first to think this particular thing up, in fact you're FAR FROM IT; it hasn't worked for anybody else yet, because of the laws of the universe (not because of some "conspiracy" between car mfrs and oil companies or whatever people would like to blame "suppressing" the "technology" on); and it's not likely the universe will change its laws just for you. Until you get some real numbers, expect those of us who are professional design engineers and scientists and mathematicians, to remain somewhat skeptical.

 

well i guess the new ford suv hybrids dont work then either?
they are employing the exact same thing and getting 25% better milage with all the weight and power output.

 

You are an idiot.

Someone lock this thread.

 

They don't have power output though, they accelerate poorly, it's hilarious, I love to tease them at redlights, one guy said to me recently, I bet your car doesn't get 50 mpg, and I said ya and I bet your car won't do this, and when the light turned green I proceeded to leave him in a cloud of tire smoke Moments like that make hot rodding all worth while. Larry.

 

hey sonic , get the **** off MY topic, go take your childish insults elsewhere.

 

all right larry , wait six monthes to a year.

 

Childish? I read your reply before you edited it, who's childish?

Keep those remarks to yourself, i'm only trying to drive home the point that people SMARTER than you are making. You can't get something for nothing, using an electrical motor to drive your car is a fine idea, but you need to obtain the power somewhere. Now, if you've ever ridden in a Precidia (I think that's the toyota hybrid), which I have, and is the only knowledge I have of hybrid type vehicles, you'll notice something: In order to help recharge their electric motor, when coasting, they spin a generator, like your alternator, but not off your crank, but off your wheels, like engine braking, but it gives you electrical power. That's getting energy, and stopping your car. Smart thinking.
A bigger alternator, which you will turn with your GAS motor, is not smart thinking.

Best of luck to you.

 

watchout sonic, he may just electrocute you with 1.21 jigga watts from his impossibility machine.........


if this keeps going i may become incontanant.

 

again thing is though they aren't just throwing parts together and hoping they work
I'm sure there system isn't as simple as yours either
they prolly have a computer controlling when they are gas driven and when they are electric driven
they also I'm sure have a electric motor that is sized correctly to the amount of load the accesories put on the motor.

now let me guess you have no idea exactly how much resistance or load those are on your car right? so how well do you know if the motor you are grabbing is going to be worth it?
or maybe you hav a motor that is going to be overkill instead and be wastefull and inefficient?

have you really thought this out very well? I'm not trying to put you down here but for knowing math and physics you haven't shown much planning and instead show just trying to put pieces together



once again though what wattage is your power converter rated at that you plan on buying?
whats the amperage rating on the motor you have?
whats the horsepower rating at what rpm for the lawnmower motor you have?
whats the current output from your alternator?

 

Prius! That's it, the toyota Prius...
yea, hybrids run 480V systems, high voltage = less losses...


But hey, to elimate losses, why not start with a 12V motor, rather then converting to 110V AC? say... use.... oh! A starter motor is high torque, and look at that, it's already hooked up to your drive system! That simplifies things.... Now you just need to be able to run it for more then 10 seconds without overheating it....hmm, cooling liquid? Well, there are gasoline lines running by it, that'd be a decent cooling fluid, it's used to cool an electric intank fuel pump in most newer vehicles, so it'll work right?


*I take no responsiblity....*

 

bla bla bla , go **** your self *** cracker.

 

What do you owe us when it doesn't work as you expect?

 

edit: sorry, double post.

 

Holy ****...I think I just lost half my brain cells reading what Mars22 has to say. I can honestly say I think you have effectively lowered the total IQ on this site by 50 points by yourself.

 

I have officially gotten dumber reading this thread. In fact, I didn't even read past the 6th or 7th reply. I understand that this is a learning process, but comeon. I think this thread has run its course lol.

 

I would just like to say that as a Ford Technician i know a bit about the new Escape hybrid, although i have yet to work on one since i have made my move to management but i have had the training. The hybrid EEC system is far more advanced than you can possibly fathom and requires a bit more than a lawn mower motor. Is consists of a 2.3 liter gasoline foru-cylinder engine and coupled electric motor. The idea behind the engine is to propel the car from a start and to charge the batteries for the system. The batteries alone that comprise the charging system are so massive that they are kept underneaeth of the floor in the rear cargo area, these batteries contain so much amperage that when working on them you must set up a safety perimeter and have one of those fiberglass insulated "sheep herding" poles nearby in case you need to pull off a co-worker whom is being fried by this thing. The electric motor maintains vehicle speed on the highway and while cruiseing and is quite torquey. I doubt that parts from a john deere could provide this same effect or even be durable enough to last more that five seconds driving the accessories without "letting the smoke out of it". This is something that has taken Ford Motor Company YEARS and MILLIONS of dollars worth of research and paying engineers to plan out how the system will operate. Im sure that you dont have an entire technical engineering department or the budget of a major car company at your disposal but hey i may be wrong. Take what everyone is saying as a challenge and prove them wrong. My .02 -Bob

 

how's this? you could put a wind generator on the roof of your car and pick up free power from the wind as you drive down the freeway.

 

so when people put an electric water pump on ,that doesnt work?you dont get more power and the battery isnt draind?
and the same principple wont work any other accsory other then the water pump? i guess all those electric pumps and
electric a/cs dont work either then?

 

Whatever your smoking.... If you just bagged that **** and sold it you could easily BUY a hybrid vehicle..

 

The electric water pump is such that it doesn't draw the motor power depending on RPM, it draws a constant current, to spin the motor at a constant speed. The idea is when racing you remove your alternator, to take off the load of the engine, use the battery to run the pump TEMPORARILY, after the race, you put everything back on. And yes, an electric water pump is less efficient then a belt driven one, only really makes sense for racing, that's why I wouldn't buy one...

AC? What ARE you smoking? they work, they're just not as efficient.

Stop insulting me, i'm not the only one thinking your have the IQ of a small rodent here.


Can we get a lock here? His last thread was already shut down because it was stupid, this is beyond that now.

 

well go **** your self , you dont have to read it, in fact your not allwoed to read it ,stop reading my words dick, little negative pansys like you dont get to read this!

 

Small rodents have reason to be offended by this comparison...

 

Seriously, at least they can make it through a maze. I think this kid has the IQ of a fork

 

Have you seen Billy Madison with Adam Sandle, you know when he describes the "Industrial Revolution" at the end.

Principal: "Mr. Madison (Mars22), what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may *** have mercy on your soul."

 

being a memeber of mensa and the triple nine society, i will go ahead and say this kid prob has an iq of around 74. maybe as high as 85, but i doubt it. but anything under 70 is considered mentally retarded, and this kid is walking on the narrow wall that devides it....i think a fork is crying somewhere, he just found out hes not very smart, you know, one of his prongs is bent down in shame and hes been hanging around with other less intellegent utensils like butterknifes and plastic coated baby spoons and thinking about joining a gang of disposible plastic forks with three of there prongs broke off to form a "f u" signal........

 

mars22, if you check into it, you find people with those hybrids on average aren't getting the mileage they advertise, same as the CAFE rating on regular cars. some do get better,... but most get less. they don't use the A/C to come up with the CAFE rating, they don't run the heater, they don't run the lights, anything that may cause a drop in mileage they keep off, including keeping the windows up.
the price the factories are selling the hybrids at is well below the profit margin they get on a standard car, if them sold them for the same profit,... no one would buy a hybrid.
the biggest reason for the hybrids isn't fuel economy,... its pollution. same as with the so called zero emissions cars,.. they really aren't zero emissions, they still have to be recharged from somewhere, but the car itself doesn't produce pollution, so people "think" it is a zero pollution vehicle.

 

My, oh my. More board rule vioaltions that I care to count, non-ThirdGen technical content, and although not forbidden by board rules, plenty of presumptive oversights and errors of ignorance just to keep everyone on their toes.

I'm thinking that some posters need to go back and review the board rules, refrain from insults and name-calling, and accept feedback in a gentlemanly or ladilike manner. This isn't the DNC, after all.

While the theories presented are interesting, and some of the information is valid, novel, and/or informative, I believe this topic has run its course in this iteration. Say goodnight, ,Gracie.