Here's the deal, brothers and sisters. I've got a little money and hate hate hate hate how slow my camaro is.

I would like to be able to run a low thirteen any day in street trim while retaining as much mileage as possible. I want hassles kept to a minimum, of course. I am willing to spend about $5000.

I'm open to any combos you guys would like to suggest, but no nitrous. I NEVER want to get caught with an empty bottle again, EVER!

I would like FIRST HAND advice on how to spend my greenbacks from guys who KNOW that they are actually going about this fast in a third gen. Please, NO: "my uncle's parole officer's car has this or that and runs 9s", or "my mom's pimp's car can beat a Viper" Please, only guys actually getting thirteens or so on about $5K.

This what I have as far as hardware. I'm willing to ****can it all if necessary, but I'd really like to end up with a manual trans and FI.

The tired 305 TPI that's in the car
The ailing 700r4 that's in the car
A WC T-5 that needs a rebuild (with all the changeover stuff)
A 1LE rear with a 3:42 posi (needs set up)
The 3:00 geared non-posi rear that's in the car

Right now, off the spray, the car goes 15.70s.

So amigos. Pour your wisdom on me. I've got my Visa warmed up and the Jegs rep on hold.

 

You'll need a 350 with good heads and cam. Ensure it can breathe in and out (intake/exhaust). Make sure your car can hook and then tuning via DIY Prom. You might as well get a 350 from a salvage yard and rebuild it (L-98). A few books and your machinist can guide you through all of that. Formulate a plan and take your time, be meticulous with details of your build. I went a step above your request and probably just over your budget with a 383. But I was looking for low 12's.

 

I was thinking about vortec heads and baseplate on a 383 platform. Upgrading to a 383 shouldn't cost much more than building a 350 since I would want to buy new pistons anyway. I just don't know if the TPI will support the extra inches without spending a bunch of money on it (runners, injectors etc.) Stock TPI stuff doesn't seem to support much HP, and upgrading TPI parts is rediculously expensive.

A blower would, of course, circumvent the TPI restriction, but would gobble up all my money, and I MUST do something about a tranny. A blown 383 would be more power than I'm looking for anyway.

I've got Kumho Ecsta tires, which I like and will keep on the car. They should be good enough for this level of performance, I think.

The 383 would be nice because I could go easy on the cam and compression and still make enough power for 13s.

Maybe I could just rebuild my 305 and put a blower on it. It might make the number, but I don't know much about blowers or the hassles associated with them. And I just hate to put any money into a 305.

See.....this is why I'm asking for advice.

 

Send me the $5k and I'll send you motor, induction and all that will get you in the 13's at will. Probably a slew of tickets as well.

 

You could follow the lead of the government - Commission a study to a private contractor to determine the most effective way to spend your windfall, complete with environmental impact analyses, psychological and sociological impact studies, and all the other political correctness issue analyses. That way, you won't have to worry about hurting anyone's feelings, embarrassing or detracting from the esteem of any owners of other, lesser vehicles, and be completely inclusive in your potential project.

And like the government, that study should just about eat up any surplus cash you may have for any such projects. I can hook you up with a consultant that will perform such a study, if you like. I know him very, very well.

Hey! It's July 4th. A little revolution is a good thing.

 

ZZ4 shortblock will give you the bottom half of the motor for about 2k if you don't want to assemble the engine or have machining done. A.F.R. 195 competition heads will get the job done any day of the week. Drop the T.P.I. set up. It's dependant on runner lengths and is full of restrictions that will eat up money to overcome. If you want to keep fuel injection, buy the Holley 670 cfm replacement T.B. and use it on either an Edelbrock Performer RPM or Air-Gap intake with a T.B. adapter plate. If the adapter plate is too much trouble, use the Performer T.B.I. intake. Just remember to have the bores opened to match the T.B.'s bigger bores. You will need a custom prom in order to make this work. If you don't mind kissin' your fuel injection good-bye, get a Holley Street Avenger carb in the 600-670 cfm area. An open element air-cleaner from K&N with filter will also help this car out. Cowl induction or ram air hoods will capitalize on this and increase your 1/4 mile mph. Your cam doesn't need to have an insane amount of duration to get you in the low 13's with this set up. 212 intake/218 exhaust, 112 lobe seperation/109 centerline, at least 0.525 lift on both sides with 1.6 rockers should be pretty potent with the other combo pieces here. The A.F.R.'s flow out to 0.600 lift, but you don't need all of that right now. Cloyes true roller timing chain and gears will also serve you well. One thing I do want to point out is that the ZZ4 bottom end is the easiest block set up, not the best. If you can get a 350 roller cam block from the boneyard and don't mind the work, and Eagle rotating assembly is cheap and adequate for your power needs. Just make sure it's for a 1 piece rear main seal. The 700r4 isn't too bad, but a t-56 would really make this combo an all around performer.

 

LMAO at Vader's comment. That's hillarious man! The only sad thing about that statement is the underlining truth of it.

 

Nobody's mentioning the LS1. I think I'm right on the threshold of LS1/T56 money. This is getting into a pretty big job, though, and I'm pretty lost when you start pluggin cars into laptops. Any thoughts, guys.

Another question: How do the axles hold up on the fourth gen cars behind the high powered motors and manual trans? It doesn't seem like they'd last too long.

 

Would you be doing ALL the work yourself? If not, then the LS1 swap would probably end up way over budget. I would highly the Holley Stealth Ram for your intake setup. It flows much better than any of the stock-style TPI setups and is cheaper. It can't keep up with the Miniram in real high horsepower applications, but for 13s it should be plenty. Unless you go carb, you are going to have to do some tuning with a computer in some way or another.

 

I'm comfortable with any kind of nuts and bolts stuff...engine building, manual trans, etc. Yeah, I'll probably do it all myself.

The LS1 sounds good because later I could go faster if I wanted to. It's also really fuel efficient, which, these, days is a pretty big deal.

What all do I have to buy for the HSR, and what can I use off my TPI?

What's a stock throttle body flow anyway? 650 CFM and an effecient induction should be enough. Mix this with home ported Vortec heads, a nice light roller 355, about 9.5 comp., headers, a manual trans, and 3.50 gears......

am I gettin' close?

What do you think?

 

If you could afford the LS1, that would be the way to go.

For the HSR, you can keep your stock throttle body, which apparently flows enough for GM to use it on the 502 crate engine. If you have the small cap distributor, you can use that too.

You will need bigger fuel injectors for a 350 no matter what kind of intake you end up using. You need to buy the fuel rail kit from Holley, and you will need some fuel lines and a couple adapters to connect them to your stock lines. You will need a few different vacuum barb fittings than the ones on your TPI plenum. You can buy everything you need new for $600 or less.

edit: All the wiring is the same for the HSR as the TPI. Yours is an 89, so you can keep your distributor and you dont have to worry about getting rid of a cold start injector.

A 355 roller with ported vortec heads and a vortec HSR, manual tranny and 3.50 gears should definitely get you 13s.

 

Well...600 aint too shabby. 400 for headers/exhaust, and that'll be $1K for gasses in and out.

I've got $4K left.

I see you're running a T-5. This $5K , of course, includes me doing something about a tranny.

I've been thinking bout the g-force kit. I like the T-5 because it's small, light, and a bolt in. I've gotten the impression that a stock T-5 simply will not live long behind 300hp or so. What's your take? I'm figuring putting the G-force stuff, along with bearings, synchros and all in my tranny at $1500 if I blow off the powdercoat.

Any thoughts??

 

The T5, while weak, isn't really as bad as it is made out to be. If you don't do 5K clutch dumps and powershift all the time, it will last for a while. I've had mine behind my 350 for about 6 months and it doesn't seem to be getting any weaker or making strange noises. If you are going to race (I assume you are, since you want 13s), then it probably wouldn't last long. When mine goes, I will probably go the G-force route. The stock clutch is absolute garbage. You will need an aftermarket one. I like my Centerforce Dual Friction.

600 for intake
400 for exhaust
270 or something for clutch
1500 for tranny

leaves you $2230 (I think lol) for the 350 longblock, and whatever you are going to do about the gears.

I just remember the fuel injectors. A lot of people like the Ford SVOs, but I think they are a bit pricey. Many people have had problems with Accel. I like my SLP #25 ones and they are an absolute bargain at $100. So $2130 for the longblock and rear end.

 

You're outrunning me on the math, but I'll catch up.

I want to do as few things TWICE as possible. That's why I'm thinking about doing the G-force thing now.

Regarding the clutch. I've never had any problems with diaphram type clutches behind mildly souped up smallblocks. Centerforce clutches can break stuff because they bite so damn hard. There's not a u-joint alive that can stand up to one. The one in my old Dodge also engaged so freaking fast that it was a little hard to control sometimes. I've got a lo mile stock clutch....I'll have to think about this one. If I had to change it later it would only be a one evening job....hmmmm..

How critical is the injector thing? Will my fuel pump work?

Lessee intake, exhaust, and tranny 2500 more or less.

I need a roller 350, machine work, heads, pistons, plugs, wires, roller rockers, cam, lifters, main studs, and all the usual rebuild stuff for another 2500.

I might be in trouble.

Of course I'm not taking into consideration the 10 grand I'll spend on stupid sh*t while it all goes together

A distributor upgrade would be nice. I have a pretty good MSD 6AL box laying around here somewhere...I think

Someone guide me on cam selection for this project.

 

Obviously you've done this before.
Don't forget to save some cash for a custom chip or better yet, a Prominator ($200) to make this engine happy (as iroczracer mentioned). The HSR will also require about $100 or so for some custom fuel lines.

 

iceman - the $600 intake cost includes what you need to make fuel lines from braided stainless line and the fittings for the ends

I'd do the G-Force upgrade now. If you don't like Centerforce, that's fine, pick another aftermarket company that doesn't engage so hard. The stock clutch is garbage. I have no problems with my Centerforce on how it engages, but I guess it's all personal preference and feel.

Your fuel pump will be fine. You need some kind of larger injectors to get more fuel into the bigger displacement, higher HP engine unless you get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and crank up the pressure with the stock 19# injectors. You run the risk of running too high of a duty cycle on them if you do it that way though.

In my opinion, a distributor upgrade would be a waste of money.

I'm not much of a help on cam selection, once you decide what intake and heads you want to use, call Comp Cams a few times and they'll give you a few different recommendations.

You should be able to build a 350 longblock for 2500.

 

I shouldn't beat up on centerforce, I guess. It's probably the most effective street clutch out there.

I used to go through a Hayes borg & beck style clutch every 20-30 passes in my Superbee, but the powershifts were always smooth as glass.

Then I put in the dual friction job, and:

BAM!, SNAP! there goes a pinchweld,
BAM!, gauges come flying out of the dash,
BAM!,...TING, there goes a wheel stud....

Well it wasn't that bad, I guess. But it did work the equipment over a little more than I liked. I don't know how a T-5 would survive that clutch in a close race.

I can't imagine a dual friction clutch slipping, though, and that's the good part.

 

I'm pretty much in the same boat as redliterunner. I've had people telling me that crate motors are the cheapest and best way to go, but I don't know if there's any truth to it. How much would I be looking to spend to get a roller cammed 350 or 383 together making as much HP as possible on 91 octane?

 

As much as possible on 91 octane? As much as possible?

I'd say that for around $50,000 you could get just about every possible bit of power available from a 91 octane roller 383. That's a very rough estimate, though.

I'm not sure that you asked the right question, Bill.

 

Based on the P.H.R., Jegs engine masters challenge, I'd estimate the cost somewhere around 14-25,000 greenbacks. I'm sure we all trip over that on the way to work in the morning,lol.