Dollar/Horsepower Ratio -- Horsepower Economics
10-30-2001, 08:47 AM
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Dollar/Horsepower Ratio -- Horsepower Economics
Ok, I may get creamed for this, but I think that there is substantial reason to perhaps stick with our wimpy 305's. Not in all cases, but in many.
It seems to me that it is preached very often, don't stick with the 305, ditch it for a 350. It's almost like pulling a string on a toy!! Reasoning, you get more horsepower for your dollar....no replacement for displacement.
Well, those are very true statements......supposing that you have NOT already modified your 305, and that you have a 350 block just sitting around ready to go.
Look at it like this. Most of us with 305's have already done some "Bolt" on modifications. Headers, intake, carb,in some cases, and the killer would be heads. We've done a little homework, figured our 305's are going to be good for a while and so we get parts that are appropriate for a 305.
So let's suppose that someone has modified his 305, and wants a little more horsepower. Let's say that person is someone like myself who has a carbed engine. They spent the following:
Carb $300.00
Intake $200.00
Exhaust$ 400.00
Cam Swap Kit $300.00
Ignition System $300.00
Misc. Labor, lube and parts $300.00
Grand total to this point $1,800.00. All over a decent amount of time, where an $1,800 "HIT" doesn't happen at once.
I'd say it is safe to assume that most people who modify their SBC's add good heads LAST. They are the most expensive (but most important) bolt on.
Now let's say that you find a good set of L98 heads, or something equivalent(sp). Used, usually about $400.00, but let's figure in everything needed, say:
$500.00 with gaskets and so on.
That's $2300.00 you spent and you've probably got a pretty quick car. You're still within reason for your stock drivetrain and suspension. You can keep all of that power on the road.
Engine dies for whatever reason. Rebuild, stroker kit for $600.00 from PowerHouse.
On this message board 99% of the people here will say "NO WAY, DITCH IT AND GO WITH A 350!! YOU'LL GET MORE BANG FOR YOUR BUCK."
Really?
Let's assume that most of us do NOT have a 350 sitting in our back yard. So you go to a junk yard, find an engine, roll the dice that it will be decent. How much did you spend on that engine? I dunno, let's say $400.00. Let's say we're going to stroke it, make a killer 383.....500 horsepower we're talking about here!!! WOW!! Now you have an engine, but still lack adequate heads, exhaust and carb. Now with your extra 48 cubic inches (both engine are stroked) if you get to 500 horsepower you will NOT be able to keep that power on the road with out some serious suspension and drive train modifications.
So look at the bottom line figures if you bolt on parts to your 305, like most of us do. I mean who can sit around and drive a sluggish car that could be so much faster with so little work.
Original cost with heads. $2,300.00
Total amount spent after rebuilding and stroking the engine using same exhaust intake, carb and heads. $3.500.00 (apx)
The machine and rebuild costs will be the same for either motor. I just guesstimated about $1200.00. (just a figure)
So let's take the 383.
Block $400.00
Reuild Stroker Kit $1,200.00
Heads (cannot find heads that cheap for this motor) $1,200.00
Carb $500.00 (need a better carb too)
Exhaust $800.00 (need a whole new exhaust system)
So we are already looking at $4,100.00 and you won't be able to keep it on the road very easily without putting about another $2,000 in suspension and drive train mods.
So let's say that you'll get 400 horsepower out of your 335. Let's say you get 500 horsepower out of your 383.
So basically by sticking with the 305, and adding the stroker kit, you're going to spend about 1,200 to 1,500 dollars. To bump up to a 383 you're going to spend about 4 grand when it is all said and done, not to mention the drive train and suspensions mods.
Which is cheaper? For an extra 100 horsepower, even 150 horsepower.
The only way I can see justifying this is if you had a car that you just picked up and was NOT running, or you started from scratch. Then you're only spending about $600.00 more, plus suspension and drivetrain.
Keep in mind all of the prices were just guesstimates, but I think I'm in the ball park.
If you've got the dough, take the extra $4,100.00 and add a serious power adder, twin turbo, or supercharger system. Since you are already re-building the motor, playing with the compression ratio will be a walk in the park.
Just something to think about.
It seems to me that it is preached very often, don't stick with the 305, ditch it for a 350. It's almost like pulling a string on a toy!! Reasoning, you get more horsepower for your dollar....no replacement for displacement.
Well, those are very true statements......supposing that you have NOT already modified your 305, and that you have a 350 block just sitting around ready to go.
Look at it like this. Most of us with 305's have already done some "Bolt" on modifications. Headers, intake, carb,in some cases, and the killer would be heads. We've done a little homework, figured our 305's are going to be good for a while and so we get parts that are appropriate for a 305.
So let's suppose that someone has modified his 305, and wants a little more horsepower. Let's say that person is someone like myself who has a carbed engine. They spent the following:
Carb $300.00
Intake $200.00
Exhaust$ 400.00
Cam Swap Kit $300.00
Ignition System $300.00
Misc. Labor, lube and parts $300.00
Grand total to this point $1,800.00. All over a decent amount of time, where an $1,800 "HIT" doesn't happen at once.
I'd say it is safe to assume that most people who modify their SBC's add good heads LAST. They are the most expensive (but most important) bolt on.
Now let's say that you find a good set of L98 heads, or something equivalent(sp). Used, usually about $400.00, but let's figure in everything needed, say:
$500.00 with gaskets and so on.
That's $2300.00 you spent and you've probably got a pretty quick car. You're still within reason for your stock drivetrain and suspension. You can keep all of that power on the road.
Engine dies for whatever reason. Rebuild, stroker kit for $600.00 from PowerHouse.
On this message board 99% of the people here will say "NO WAY, DITCH IT AND GO WITH A 350!! YOU'LL GET MORE BANG FOR YOUR BUCK."
Really?
Let's assume that most of us do NOT have a 350 sitting in our back yard. So you go to a junk yard, find an engine, roll the dice that it will be decent. How much did you spend on that engine? I dunno, let's say $400.00. Let's say we're going to stroke it, make a killer 383.....500 horsepower we're talking about here!!! WOW!! Now you have an engine, but still lack adequate heads, exhaust and carb. Now with your extra 48 cubic inches (both engine are stroked) if you get to 500 horsepower you will NOT be able to keep that power on the road with out some serious suspension and drive train modifications.
So look at the bottom line figures if you bolt on parts to your 305, like most of us do. I mean who can sit around and drive a sluggish car that could be so much faster with so little work.
Original cost with heads. $2,300.00
Total amount spent after rebuilding and stroking the engine using same exhaust intake, carb and heads. $3.500.00 (apx)
The machine and rebuild costs will be the same for either motor. I just guesstimated about $1200.00. (just a figure)
So let's take the 383.
Block $400.00
Reuild Stroker Kit $1,200.00
Heads (cannot find heads that cheap for this motor) $1,200.00
Carb $500.00 (need a better carb too)
Exhaust $800.00 (need a whole new exhaust system)
So we are already looking at $4,100.00 and you won't be able to keep it on the road very easily without putting about another $2,000 in suspension and drive train mods.
So let's say that you'll get 400 horsepower out of your 335. Let's say you get 500 horsepower out of your 383.
So basically by sticking with the 305, and adding the stroker kit, you're going to spend about 1,200 to 1,500 dollars. To bump up to a 383 you're going to spend about 4 grand when it is all said and done, not to mention the drive train and suspensions mods.
Which is cheaper? For an extra 100 horsepower, even 150 horsepower.
The only way I can see justifying this is if you had a car that you just picked up and was NOT running, or you started from scratch. Then you're only spending about $600.00 more, plus suspension and drivetrain.
Keep in mind all of the prices were just guesstimates, but I think I'm in the ball park.
If you've got the dough, take the extra $4,100.00 and add a serious power adder, twin turbo, or supercharger system. Since you are already re-building the motor, playing with the compression ratio will be a walk in the park.
Just something to think about.
10-30-2001, 09:11 AM
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There is a serious fundamental flaw in your analysis. It's not even remotely realistic to economically compare bolting on stuff to the outside of an existing 305, to building a 383 from scratch; that's not an apples-to-apples comparison.
Instead, let's take your numbers, and apply them to 2 305 cases and a 350 case: a straight 305 rebuild, and a stroked 305, compared to a direct rebuild on the 350 in its stock configuration. In all 3 we'll spend the same money on a cam, exhaust, etc. as you have in your list. You'll end up with a 305 or 334 vs. a 350. Assume for the moment (not true, but let's pretend) that the 334 comes out equal in performance to the 350 (it won't). Let's do a quick economic reality check.
If you look at rebuilding the 305 vs. simply rebuilding the 350, with stock heads and the exact same bolt-ons such as perhaps the list you started out with, you'll come out with a $3000 bill at the end for the 305, and a $3400 bill for the 350. You'll get about 240-250 HP out of the 305, and about 300-310 out of the 350. That's $12-12.50 per HP from the 305, compared to $11-11.33 per HP for the 350. Which one is the better deal?
Let's look at the 305 with stroker kit vs. the straight-up 350. In that case you end up with $3600 in a 334 compared to $3400 in a 350. The 334 requires clearancing, special cam considerations, etc. etc.; the 350 is an error-free, surprise-free slap-together. Which one of those is the better deal?
Of course, you could then do exactly the same head replacement to any of these 3 engines; except that if you use a 305 block, you're limited as to what heads you can use, because you have to avoid making the valves hit the block deck. You get a whole lot more freedom in that area (room to grow, so to speak) in the 350. Which one of those is the better deal?
A 383 with killer $1200 heads is not in the same league with a 305 with ported stock heads, cost- or performance-wise. That is simply not a valid comparison.
In no case can an argument be made that performance upgrades to the 305 are more cost-effective than working with a 350.
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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports
[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited October 30, 2001).]
Instead, let's take your numbers, and apply them to 2 305 cases and a 350 case: a straight 305 rebuild, and a stroked 305, compared to a direct rebuild on the 350 in its stock configuration. In all 3 we'll spend the same money on a cam, exhaust, etc. as you have in your list. You'll end up with a 305 or 334 vs. a 350. Assume for the moment (not true, but let's pretend) that the 334 comes out equal in performance to the 350 (it won't). Let's do a quick economic reality check.
If you look at rebuilding the 305 vs. simply rebuilding the 350, with stock heads and the exact same bolt-ons such as perhaps the list you started out with, you'll come out with a $3000 bill at the end for the 305, and a $3400 bill for the 350. You'll get about 240-250 HP out of the 305, and about 300-310 out of the 350. That's $12-12.50 per HP from the 305, compared to $11-11.33 per HP for the 350. Which one is the better deal?
Let's look at the 305 with stroker kit vs. the straight-up 350. In that case you end up with $3600 in a 334 compared to $3400 in a 350. The 334 requires clearancing, special cam considerations, etc. etc.; the 350 is an error-free, surprise-free slap-together. Which one of those is the better deal?
Of course, you could then do exactly the same head replacement to any of these 3 engines; except that if you use a 305 block, you're limited as to what heads you can use, because you have to avoid making the valves hit the block deck. You get a whole lot more freedom in that area (room to grow, so to speak) in the 350. Which one of those is the better deal?
A 383 with killer $1200 heads is not in the same league with a 305 with ported stock heads, cost- or performance-wise. That is simply not a valid comparison.
In no case can an argument be made that performance upgrades to the 305 are more cost-effective than working with a 350.
------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports
[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited October 30, 2001).]
10-30-2001, 10:47 AM
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That's too much. I built my 350 flat top
motor shortblock for $900, core $200, vortec heads $800 (includes screw in studs, guide plates hi perf springs and guide machining)
cam and lifters was $180, vortec rpm intake
$300.... all the rest would be the same
as the old 305 (headers etc) The car has stock suspension and hi traction street tires
Runs low 13's has a smooth idle and mild manners. These $ figures are in Candian Dollars Multiply by .65 for US dollars.
Ya can't do that with a 305 for double...
motor shortblock for $900, core $200, vortec heads $800 (includes screw in studs, guide plates hi perf springs and guide machining)
cam and lifters was $180, vortec rpm intake
$300.... all the rest would be the same
as the old 305 (headers etc) The car has stock suspension and hi traction street tires
Runs low 13's has a smooth idle and mild manners. These $ figures are in Candian Dollars Multiply by .65 for US dollars.
Ya can't do that with a 305 for double...
10-30-2001, 11:09 AM
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Car: 1968 Camaro
Engine: 406
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Axle/Gears: 3.42
Testify Brother! I just wanted to get on the "I hate 305's" bandwagon.
------------------
355 c.i.
Dart 180 Heads
Lunati 224/224 cam
Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers
Performer RPM Manifold
Holley 600 cfm double pumper
Hooker Super Competition Headers
Flowmaster Exhaust
Competition Engineering Sub-frame connectors
Super T-10
GM posi 3.42 rear
Hurst Roll Control
13.9@102
------------------
355 c.i.
Dart 180 Heads
Lunati 224/224 cam
Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers
Performer RPM Manifold
Holley 600 cfm double pumper
Hooker Super Competition Headers
Flowmaster Exhaust
Competition Engineering Sub-frame connectors
Super T-10
GM posi 3.42 rear
Hurst Roll Control
13.9@102
10-30-2001, 11:48 AM
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Car: 1986 Sport Coupé
Engine: 305-4v
Transmission: 700R4 and TransGo2
Clearly, the intelligent thing to do is keep your 305 engine upgrades to simple bolt ons that will work equally well with a 350, once the 305 blows. These are:
-headers and exhaust
-aluminum intake
-optimise your carb with a good tune up like Damon Nickle has written up in the Tech Articles
-a Crane ignition kit
-a set of Vortec or L98 heads with 1.94 intake valves--they bolt right on! In fact, GM even produces Vortec heads that will now work with your stock intake, so you don't need to go for a dedicated setup.
-a mild torque converter of @ 2100 rpm
That will give you a very crisp responding 305 ands EVERYTHING will bolt right onto that $1000 Canadian ($650 US) rebuilt 350 short block when the time comes.
What could be more economical and deliver more hp in the long run? Nothing I know of!
------------------
1986 Camaro Sports Coupe
Flame Red Metallic with Black accents and Red interior
T-tops, variable wiper, power hatch, rear defrost, third brake light
LG4 305 V8, Hooker Shorty headers, 3" pipe into Walker Quiet Flow dual exhaust
Edelbrock Performer intake, "Damonized" Q-Jet 4bbl, K&N filter, Crane ignition kit
TH700R4 transmission and Derale cooler
Air conditioning, power windows, power door locks, power brakes, power steering, tilt wheel
Kenwood cassette, Pioneer 6x4 component front speakers
Rockford Fosgate 6x9 Punch rear speakers
Z-28 front and rear sway bars
Aluminum slots and Goodyear 225x60R15 Eagle HP tires
243 horsepower and 326 foot pounds of torque at the flywheel
_ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _
Yea verily, and he smote the smog heathens from his small block Chevy, even from the air pump to the converter ...
Todd 1:1
[This message has been edited by Sitting Bull (edited October 30, 2001).]
-headers and exhaust
-aluminum intake
-optimise your carb with a good tune up like Damon Nickle has written up in the Tech Articles
-a Crane ignition kit
-a set of Vortec or L98 heads with 1.94 intake valves--they bolt right on! In fact, GM even produces Vortec heads that will now work with your stock intake, so you don't need to go for a dedicated setup.
-a mild torque converter of @ 2100 rpm
That will give you a very crisp responding 305 ands EVERYTHING will bolt right onto that $1000 Canadian ($650 US) rebuilt 350 short block when the time comes.
What could be more economical and deliver more hp in the long run? Nothing I know of!
------------------
1986 Camaro Sports Coupe
Flame Red Metallic with Black accents and Red interior
T-tops, variable wiper, power hatch, rear defrost, third brake light
LG4 305 V8, Hooker Shorty headers, 3" pipe into Walker Quiet Flow dual exhaust
Edelbrock Performer intake, "Damonized" Q-Jet 4bbl, K&N filter, Crane ignition kit
TH700R4 transmission and Derale cooler
Air conditioning, power windows, power door locks, power brakes, power steering, tilt wheel
Kenwood cassette, Pioneer 6x4 component front speakers
Rockford Fosgate 6x9 Punch rear speakers
Z-28 front and rear sway bars
Aluminum slots and Goodyear 225x60R15 Eagle HP tires
243 horsepower and 326 foot pounds of torque at the flywheel
_ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _
Yea verily, and he smote the smog heathens from his small block Chevy, even from the air pump to the converter ...
Todd 1:1
[This message has been edited by Sitting Bull (edited October 30, 2001).]
10-30-2001, 11:59 AM
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RB,
I think you've missed my point. You're absolutely correct in your observations. I touched on it briefly, but my point is basically the following in one sentence.
If you have a 305 that you've already spent money on to modify in your car, rebuilding that engine with the current bolt ons will be cheaper than building a 350 or 383 that you don't currently have.
That's all I meant. I am not suggesting that building a 305 will be cheaper than building another size of engine, except in the case that I had posed. And that is the case for a large number of us. Many of us have 305's that we have "bolted performance items" to, and we would have to re-purchase many of the items if we went with a larger engine.
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
I think you've missed my point. You're absolutely correct in your observations. I touched on it briefly, but my point is basically the following in one sentence.
If you have a 305 that you've already spent money on to modify in your car, rebuilding that engine with the current bolt ons will be cheaper than building a 350 or 383 that you don't currently have.
That's all I meant. I am not suggesting that building a 305 will be cheaper than building another size of engine, except in the case that I had posed. And that is the case for a large number of us. Many of us have 305's that we have "bolted performance items" to, and we would have to re-purchase many of the items if we went with a larger engine.
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
10-30-2001, 12:21 PM
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Actually, most of the bolt-ons for a 305 will transfer right over to a 350... exhaust, ignition, cooling system, rocker arms, even carb and cam in many circumstances. There really isn't as much stuff that has to be replaced in switching to a 350 as you might think, especially not if the parts in question were purchased for the 305 with an eye to selecting ones that were also sized appropriately for going to a 350 later.
My main point is that once you get past the bolt-on stage and start to dig into the boring/piston cost, it's more economical in $$$/HP terms to swap to a 350 than to spend all that coin on doing that to a 305. Take that $3000 or whatever that you will have tied up in your motor, put another $300 or $400 with it (10-12% increase in $$$) in exchange for a 20% increase in HP. To me, even though it's a few more bucks, it's a no-brainer in terms of what you get for each of those bucks.
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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports
[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited October 30, 2001).]
My main point is that once you get past the bolt-on stage and start to dig into the boring/piston cost, it's more economical in $$$/HP terms to swap to a 350 than to spend all that coin on doing that to a 305. Take that $3000 or whatever that you will have tied up in your motor, put another $300 or $400 with it (10-12% increase in $$$) in exchange for a 20% increase in HP. To me, even though it's a few more bucks, it's a no-brainer in terms of what you get for each of those bucks.
------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports
[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited October 30, 2001).]
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10-30-2001, 12:22 PM
#8
Supreme Member
You've missed my point. The 383 is irelevent because it is nonstock so naturely more expensive. The 350SBC is the cheapest SB to build period. It also gives you the most bang for the buck. Anything you have already on your 305 in bolt-ons you can move to your 350 and they will work great. 99% of the bolt on stuff is designed first to work on a 350. (intake runners) headers etc). You are way ahead of the game by going with the 350.
10-30-2001, 12:42 PM
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So your entire post was to state that if you have a 305 and it blows up it is cheaper to just rebuild the 305 then buy a 350 and rebuild it? Yes. You are correct that it is cheaper to NOT SPEND more money than it is to SPEND more money.
I think the purpose of your post was to comment on the "Dollar/HP ratio." That's why that is the topic of the post. I picked up a 5HP lawnmower for 5 bucks the other day. The Briggs and Stratton engine has a great HP/dollar ratio, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put it in my car.
It takes a lot of money to go fast. You'll go fastest for the dollar with a 350.
I think the purpose of your post was to comment on the "Dollar/HP ratio." That's why that is the topic of the post. I picked up a 5HP lawnmower for 5 bucks the other day. The Briggs and Stratton engine has a great HP/dollar ratio, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put it in my car.
It takes a lot of money to go fast. You'll go fastest for the dollar with a 350.
10-30-2001, 12:46 PM
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I'll say right from the begining that I am a 305 guy, but I see very good points on both sides of this disscusion. If you are looking at a hp/$ ratio, the 350 will win period. But if you are building a 305 it doesn't make sense for everyone to just go build up a 350 and drop it in. It is possible to spread out the amount of money you are spending by slowly modding the 305...sure in the long run it may be just as much money, or in some cases more, but you dont have to pay up all at once. Also many of us use our cars as daily transportation. Simply dropping in a 350 would leave us without a car for a while (if we do the swap correctly) and also give us computer/emissions/fuel/air problems. If we do bolt on mods that take say a weekend to get up and running then we can work around not having a car.
That said if my 305 ever takes a dump, a 350 will find its home in my car. Every mod will give me more power than on the 305. But you guys have to think about this everytime we ask about performance mods and you say "drop in a 350 and get back to us". It may not be the best solution for everyone.
peace
That said if my 305 ever takes a dump, a 350 will find its home in my car. Every mod will give me more power than on the 305. But you guys have to think about this everytime we ask about performance mods and you say "drop in a 350 and get back to us". It may not be the best solution for everyone.
peace
10-30-2001, 01:07 PM
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I completely agree. Do exhaust mods first, but if you blow up the 305, for the love of all things fast, do not rebuild the 305.
10-30-2001, 01:07 PM
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OK, look. I think that I took it just a little too far.
I originally meant to show in numbers that building up a 305 wasn't a waste of money. I don't mean to say that a 305 is cheaper to build than a 350. It is only so in this case (when that is what your car has), not if you are starting from scratch.
Afterall, the people who know aren't going to ask what can I do to this 305 to make it really fast. Those people probably aren't going to spend a dime on the 305 in favor of building a 350 or larger to replace it with.
I get a little fed up with seeing somebody ask, "What can I do to get more power out of my car?"
It seems like the automatic response is, "Get rid of the 305!!! It'll be cheaper!"
Now RB, everytime I have read your response to that question, you explained. You're not one of the guys who just says ditch it, you've always said, it depends on what you want.
RB and many others have always explained that if you want an 11 second car, you could do it with a 305....and lots of dough, or you could get there much cheaper with a larger displacement engine.
There are a lot of very experience and smart people on this board who give sound advice.
Here is the other problem. Many of the people who ask that question don't know how to do much of anything (kinda like me) much less have the equipment or knowledge to swap out their 305 with a 350.
However, by doing simple mods, learning as they go, which is the only way to learn, you end up working on what you have. If you get it right on this engine size, you'll want to get it right on the next (350 or larger). To get it right on the next, you'll have to start over, that is if you want the same hp/ci ratio.
That's my point.
[This message has been edited by gruveb (edited October 30, 2001).]
I originally meant to show in numbers that building up a 305 wasn't a waste of money. I don't mean to say that a 305 is cheaper to build than a 350. It is only so in this case (when that is what your car has), not if you are starting from scratch.
Afterall, the people who know aren't going to ask what can I do to this 305 to make it really fast. Those people probably aren't going to spend a dime on the 305 in favor of building a 350 or larger to replace it with.
I get a little fed up with seeing somebody ask, "What can I do to get more power out of my car?"
It seems like the automatic response is, "Get rid of the 305!!! It'll be cheaper!"
Now RB, everytime I have read your response to that question, you explained. You're not one of the guys who just says ditch it, you've always said, it depends on what you want.
RB and many others have always explained that if you want an 11 second car, you could do it with a 305....and lots of dough, or you could get there much cheaper with a larger displacement engine.
There are a lot of very experience and smart people on this board who give sound advice.
Here is the other problem. Many of the people who ask that question don't know how to do much of anything (kinda like me) much less have the equipment or knowledge to swap out their 305 with a 350.
However, by doing simple mods, learning as they go, which is the only way to learn, you end up working on what you have. If you get it right on this engine size, you'll want to get it right on the next (350 or larger). To get it right on the next, you'll have to start over, that is if you want the same hp/ci ratio.
That's my point.
[This message has been edited by gruveb (edited October 30, 2001).]
10-30-2001, 01:40 PM
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edit - I’m not a 305 hater. It’s a great engine that responds well to bolt ons,, and nitrous,,, just like any other SBC. So mod away have fun and be proud of your work on it. However, comparing it’s power potential to a 350 is like comparing the power potential of the 267 to the 305. I don’t think any 305 guys would advocate stroking a 267 anymore than the 350 guys would advocate stroking a 305. I can understand your aggravation with the “ditch the 305” statement, but it sounds like you understand why you’re getting that.
[This message has been edited by the roc (edited November 01, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by the roc (edited November 01, 2001).]
10-30-2001, 02:43 PM
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Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
Man, I just love these fights; I could watch them all day long!
Having been a 305 defender in the past, though, I'll just have to get into the fray. If the question is, can I go faster with a 350 for the same amount of money I'd put into bolt-ons for a 305, I firmly believe the answer is "no".
If...
...you don't have to touch the bottom end of the 305.
My numbers: World 305 heads w/upgrade springs, retainers & seals, self-ported (~10 hours) and assembled, including shipping, diegrinder & porting supplies - $700; roller-tip rockers, $93; Crane computer PowerMax cam and lifters - $134; ZZ3 take-off intake - $75; Hooker 2055 headers, 3" Catco cat, 3" cat-back, Flowmaster dual opposite - $678; gaskets, timing set - $87. (Some of those numbers include the recent Summit 10% off) Total: $1767. Expected HP: 285-300 at flywheel. Expected 1320 difference: 1.0 - 1.5 seconds.
Now, use some 350 figures given above, plus prices I've gotten recently: core - $200. Rebuild kit - $250. Machine work - $300. Assume similar prices for World S/R Torquers, intake, cam, rockers, gaskets, timing set - $1089. Total so far, $1659. That leaves $108 for exhaust.
Do you think that 350 will produce 285-300 HP, or move 1.0-1.5 seconds faster down the 1320 than the stock 305 did, through the stock 305 exhaust?
Neither do I.
BUT...
If you have to spend any money on the 305 bottom end, go looking for that 350 shortblock core.
------------------
82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R4. 2.93 limited slip. 2-1/2" cat-back, ZZ4 intake, Accel HEI SuperCoil. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily driver, work-in-progress (ported World 305 heads, Crane PowerMax cam, Hooker 2055 headers, 3" Catco cat & 3" catback w/dual-opposite Flowmaster, restalled TC, Spohn SFCs).
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. '66 396, 9.7 CR forged TRWs, Weiand Action+, Holley 750VS w/4150 conversion, GK 270 cam, Magnum rockers, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" Hedders & 3" Warlocks, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & Trans-Scat shift kit, MegaShifter, 3.08 8.2" 10-bolt w/Powertrax, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Idles smooth @ 600 RPM in D. Best 15.02/95.06 @ 5800' Bandimere (corrected 13.93/102.4 @ sea level).
Having been a 305 defender in the past, though, I'll just have to get into the fray. If the question is, can I go faster with a 350 for the same amount of money I'd put into bolt-ons for a 305, I firmly believe the answer is "no".
If...
...you don't have to touch the bottom end of the 305.
My numbers: World 305 heads w/upgrade springs, retainers & seals, self-ported (~10 hours) and assembled, including shipping, diegrinder & porting supplies - $700; roller-tip rockers, $93; Crane computer PowerMax cam and lifters - $134; ZZ3 take-off intake - $75; Hooker 2055 headers, 3" Catco cat, 3" cat-back, Flowmaster dual opposite - $678; gaskets, timing set - $87. (Some of those numbers include the recent Summit 10% off) Total: $1767. Expected HP: 285-300 at flywheel. Expected 1320 difference: 1.0 - 1.5 seconds.
Now, use some 350 figures given above, plus prices I've gotten recently: core - $200. Rebuild kit - $250. Machine work - $300. Assume similar prices for World S/R Torquers, intake, cam, rockers, gaskets, timing set - $1089. Total so far, $1659. That leaves $108 for exhaust.
Do you think that 350 will produce 285-300 HP, or move 1.0-1.5 seconds faster down the 1320 than the stock 305 did, through the stock 305 exhaust?
Neither do I.
BUT...
If you have to spend any money on the 305 bottom end, go looking for that 350 shortblock core.
------------------
82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R4. 2.93 limited slip. 2-1/2" cat-back, ZZ4 intake, Accel HEI SuperCoil. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily driver, work-in-progress (ported World 305 heads, Crane PowerMax cam, Hooker 2055 headers, 3" Catco cat & 3" catback w/dual-opposite Flowmaster, restalled TC, Spohn SFCs).
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. '66 396, 9.7 CR forged TRWs, Weiand Action+, Holley 750VS w/4150 conversion, GK 270 cam, Magnum rockers, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" Hedders & 3" Warlocks, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & Trans-Scat shift kit, MegaShifter, 3.08 8.2" 10-bolt w/Powertrax, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Idles smooth @ 600 RPM in D. Best 15.02/95.06 @ 5800' Bandimere (corrected 13.93/102.4 @ sea level).
10-30-2001, 03:09 PM
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I think what many of the 350 guys dont see is that with mods, a 305 can make more power than an lightly modded 350. Maybe us 305 guys would be happy to run a high 13 and dont need a 12/11 second car. I personaly like the way my 305 drives...I just wish I had a little more go power.
That said...Look around on these boards and see what most 350 cars run. I beleive the average lightly modded 350 runs low 14's, something that a 305 can do very easily.
peace
That said...Look around on these boards and see what most 350 cars run. I beleive the average lightly modded 350 runs low 14's, something that a 305 can do very easily.
peace
10-30-2001, 04:37 PM
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With equal mods (usually synonymous with equal dollars) the 350 will always produce more power than an identically modded 305. Period. It's so obvious, it's almost easy to overlook. The point is not whether it's possible to concoct a 305 that will beat a "lightly modded" 350: of course it's possible. That also is so obvious it's not worth arguing over. My reply is not to say that a 305 is a bad motor, or that a 350 is the only answer. It's also not a question of how fast a 305 can be made to go, or whether we like 305s, or whether we should mod them. Let's leave all that aside.
The discussion is about "Horsepower economics". And that is an incredibly easy thing to work out, as has already been done. Take that same money (that would also be synonymous with equal $$$) and apply it to a 350, the 350 will smoke the 305 every time. Period. End of argument. I don't see where it's even possible to question the validity of this statement.
gruveb's original quandry was more as follows: What happens when you already have a bunch of money in a 305, then it wears out, and you have to make a decision: redo the 305, or ditch it and upgrade? It looks like he is concerned that if he ditched it, he would lose a substantial part of his prior outlay. My point is that by choosing his bolt-ons carefully (which he has not done yet, he still has the opportunity to research and choose according to his priorities), the additional outlay needed to trade up to a 350 when engine replacement time rolls around is actually minimal, and he can enjoy the greater cost/benefit of the larger motor.
I personally like the way my 305 drives too. I just wish I had known at the time I was doing my most recent build that the Smog **** Wehrmacht wasn't going to check my block serial number, and verify that whatever motor I had in the car was (a) newer than the car and that (b) all of its "devices" were installed and operational as specified for the year of the motor, which is how the law here reads. So I put the original motor back in.
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[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited October 30, 2001).]
The discussion is about "Horsepower economics". And that is an incredibly easy thing to work out, as has already been done. Take that same money (that would also be synonymous with equal $$$) and apply it to a 350, the 350 will smoke the 305 every time. Period. End of argument. I don't see where it's even possible to question the validity of this statement.
gruveb's original quandry was more as follows: What happens when you already have a bunch of money in a 305, then it wears out, and you have to make a decision: redo the 305, or ditch it and upgrade? It looks like he is concerned that if he ditched it, he would lose a substantial part of his prior outlay. My point is that by choosing his bolt-ons carefully (which he has not done yet, he still has the opportunity to research and choose according to his priorities), the additional outlay needed to trade up to a 350 when engine replacement time rolls around is actually minimal, and he can enjoy the greater cost/benefit of the larger motor.
I personally like the way my 305 drives too. I just wish I had known at the time I was doing my most recent build that the Smog **** Wehrmacht wasn't going to check my block serial number, and verify that whatever motor I had in the car was (a) newer than the car and that (b) all of its "devices" were installed and operational as specified for the year of the motor, which is how the law here reads. So I put the original motor back in.
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[This message has been edited by RB83L69 (edited October 30, 2001).]
10-30-2001, 05:22 PM
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Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
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Axle/Gears: 12B-3.73/9"-3.89
I will agree with you at this point: "...if the engine dies...".
This spring, I looked into the Powerhouse stroker (which is $800 by the time you get the required externally balanced damper and flexplate). The $300 machining I mentioned (probably more if you don't do the clearancing yourself), plus the starter hassles with a stroker, it started making less sense. Local speed machine shop told me he could sell me a roller block 350 core, machine it for 383, throw in the standard 383 stroker rotating assembly, total unassembled package for less than I was looking at for the Powerhouse 334 kit and machining my block. Suddenly, stroking a 305 didn't look so attractive any more. And certainly, it doesn't get any more attractive just because "it died".
But, I maintain my position that, if the bottom end doesn't need to be touched, you can make a 305 car faster than you could by spending the same money putting in a 350. And, I don't expect my bottom end to wear out anytime soon (brace yourself, shameless plug at 12 o'clock) because it will never have anything but synthetic oil in it after the cam is run in.
[This message has been edited by five7kid (edited October 30, 2001).]
This spring, I looked into the Powerhouse stroker (which is $800 by the time you get the required externally balanced damper and flexplate). The $300 machining I mentioned (probably more if you don't do the clearancing yourself), plus the starter hassles with a stroker, it started making less sense. Local speed machine shop told me he could sell me a roller block 350 core, machine it for 383, throw in the standard 383 stroker rotating assembly, total unassembled package for less than I was looking at for the Powerhouse 334 kit and machining my block. Suddenly, stroking a 305 didn't look so attractive any more. And certainly, it doesn't get any more attractive just because "it died".
But, I maintain my position that, if the bottom end doesn't need to be touched, you can make a 305 car faster than you could by spending the same money putting in a 350. And, I don't expect my bottom end to wear out anytime soon (brace yourself, shameless plug at 12 o'clock) because it will never have anything but synthetic oil in it after the cam is run in.
[This message has been edited by five7kid (edited October 30, 2001).]
10-30-2001, 06:19 PM
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I am doing exactly what Sitting Bull is saying. Most of the mods i have on my 305 will carry over to the 355 I am building now.
The 305 is fine for what it is, an economic power plant that responds well to simple mods and can be made to go relativley(sp) fast. But it gets to a point were the 305 just doesnt make enough power for the money put into it. Thats why I am building a 350 and why most people on this board will tell you to do the same. IMO to a certain point the 305 is fine but when you want more power its time to move up to a bigger engine. IMO
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custom cold air,gutted maf(just screens),52mm tb,ported plenum,edelbrock runners and base,headers with 3" catback,tb coolant bypass,afpr@44 psi,msd 6a w\blasterII coil,3.73 posi,sf connectors and corvette servo
The 305 is fine for what it is, an economic power plant that responds well to simple mods and can be made to go relativley(sp) fast. But it gets to a point were the 305 just doesnt make enough power for the money put into it. Thats why I am building a 350 and why most people on this board will tell you to do the same. IMO to a certain point the 305 is fine but when you want more power its time to move up to a bigger engine. IMO
------------------
'89 firebird formula tpi
custom cold air,gutted maf(just screens),52mm tb,ported plenum,edelbrock runners and base,headers with 3" catback,tb coolant bypass,afpr@44 psi,msd 6a w\blasterII coil,3.73 posi,sf connectors and corvette servo
10-30-2001, 06:26 PM
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Wow this is fun isn't it?
True enough, you can't compare a 305 to a 383. I was really trying to show the difference between a 383 and a stroke 305 (335). Somehow or another it was switched to a 350. See to me, if I am going to build an engine from the ground up, I might as well get everything I can out of it, providing the dollar figure makes sense.
With that in mind....RB is right, I haven't purchased anything extensive yet. Everything I have purchased to this point, except for a Edelbrock 600 cfm carb (needed it in a pinch and it's all I could find), will apply to both a 350, 383 or any small block nicely.
I'm partly waiting to buy extra junk due to cash flow, and also not in a real big hurry because I want to make sure I don't throw money away. I'm not cheap, just low budget!!
5-7 kid and RB got it right, I'm not talking about building the engine from a small block...I'm talking about already in the car.
I was really trying to put a post on here to a lot of the inexperienced guys (who may not even search the archives and find this anyhow), that it's OK to build up your 305, you'll end up with a fast car, and a 13 second car is pretty damn quick.....and if you keep your same engine...and it's mechanically sound it is cheaper that way.
Those who are capable of building up a 350 or 383 from a short block probably already know the $/hp ratio pays off for a larger engine....but those who don't know any better are often being told on this board, "Get a 350...scrap the 305."
Anyhow, this is fun anyway is it?
Oh, by the way, what made me re-think this whole thing was a trip to Tucson I took a couple of weeks ago....I rode in a supercharged 87 IROC with the original 305....low 12 seconds....Of course same stuff put on a larger engine will be faster, but if you're on the street, how much do you need....how far can you go before being unsafe?
Low 12.1 is what the Viper (can't remember the model...the one with the spoiler and stripes...) runs. I think the car I rode in over the weekend was 12.03.
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
True enough, you can't compare a 305 to a 383. I was really trying to show the difference between a 383 and a stroke 305 (335). Somehow or another it was switched to a 350. See to me, if I am going to build an engine from the ground up, I might as well get everything I can out of it, providing the dollar figure makes sense.
With that in mind....RB is right, I haven't purchased anything extensive yet. Everything I have purchased to this point, except for a Edelbrock 600 cfm carb (needed it in a pinch and it's all I could find), will apply to both a 350, 383 or any small block nicely.
I'm partly waiting to buy extra junk due to cash flow, and also not in a real big hurry because I want to make sure I don't throw money away. I'm not cheap, just low budget!!
5-7 kid and RB got it right, I'm not talking about building the engine from a small block...I'm talking about already in the car.
I was really trying to put a post on here to a lot of the inexperienced guys (who may not even search the archives and find this anyhow), that it's OK to build up your 305, you'll end up with a fast car, and a 13 second car is pretty damn quick.....and if you keep your same engine...and it's mechanically sound it is cheaper that way.
Those who are capable of building up a 350 or 383 from a short block probably already know the $/hp ratio pays off for a larger engine....but those who don't know any better are often being told on this board, "Get a 350...scrap the 305."
Anyhow, this is fun anyway is it?
Oh, by the way, what made me re-think this whole thing was a trip to Tucson I took a couple of weeks ago....I rode in a supercharged 87 IROC with the original 305....low 12 seconds....Of course same stuff put on a larger engine will be faster, but if you're on the street, how much do you need....how far can you go before being unsafe?
Low 12.1 is what the Viper (can't remember the model...the one with the spoiler and stripes...) runs. I think the car I rode in over the weekend was 12.03.
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
10-30-2001, 06:27 PM
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By the way...this dawned on me sometime ago...
Is building up a V8 that will go fast as hell and get worse gas milage ECONOMICAL anyhow?
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http://www.gruveb.com/z28
Is building up a V8 that will go fast as hell and get worse gas milage ECONOMICAL anyhow?
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http://www.gruveb.com/z28
10-30-2001, 06:51 PM
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Think of it this way... you have to WASTE GAS ECONOMICALLY!!! 
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10-30-2001, 10:37 PM
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I want a 350.. but...
When I first got my car, I didn't know anything about engines. It had a 305 in it. But as far as I was concerned, if it could make the car move, it was good.
Slowly but surely, I learned stuff about engines. So I started doing small mods. But I didn't know enough about it to think that eventually I was going to be building a twin turbo 383. heh.
While I wish I had saved all my money and simply dropped in a 383, I didn't.
With that in mind, for a newcomer asking what he can do to make his 305 faster, telling him to drop in a 350 might not only be out of his price range, but out of his range of experience as well.
Besides, if the Ford 302's can pull as hard as they can, you'd think we could do something similar with our 305's. heh
When I first got my car, I didn't know anything about engines. It had a 305 in it. But as far as I was concerned, if it could make the car move, it was good.
Slowly but surely, I learned stuff about engines. So I started doing small mods. But I didn't know enough about it to think that eventually I was going to be building a twin turbo 383. heh.
While I wish I had saved all my money and simply dropped in a 383, I didn't.
With that in mind, for a newcomer asking what he can do to make his 305 faster, telling him to drop in a 350 might not only be out of his price range, but out of his range of experience as well.
Besides, if the Ford 302's can pull as hard as they can, you'd think we could do something similar with our 305's. heh
10-31-2001, 10:00 AM
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Here comes the comments about the Ford 302 again. Why does that ALWAYS pop up when discussing 305s?
Yes, they are both about 5 liters of displacement. They also both go about it in different ways--the Ford 302 is a large bore/short stroke motor and the 305 is a small bore/long stroke motor. What makes you think you can even remotely compare the two?
If anything, the Ford 302 is similar to the Chevy 327 and Chevy 302... The 327 is a destroked 350 (well, if you want to get techinical, the 350 is really a stroked 327). And the 302 was/is a destroked 327 block. None of which have anything in common with the 305. (I can't remember what the bore size on the Ford 302 is, but the 350/327/302 SBC's all use 4" bores).
Yes, they are both about 5 liters of displacement. They also both go about it in different ways--the Ford 302 is a large bore/short stroke motor and the 305 is a small bore/long stroke motor. What makes you think you can even remotely compare the two?
If anything, the Ford 302 is similar to the Chevy 327 and Chevy 302... The 327 is a destroked 350 (well, if you want to get techinical, the 350 is really a stroked 327). And the 302 was/is a destroked 327 block. None of which have anything in common with the 305. (I can't remember what the bore size on the Ford 302 is, but the 350/327/302 SBC's all use 4" bores).
10-31-2001, 10:15 AM
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I hate to say it, but I think the design (bore/stroke) of the ford is much better than a 305. Well maybe I shouldnt say better, but its design is for power, and a 305 is more of a torque motor. But compare the 350 to a 302 and thats a different story all together...which brings us back to the original discussion. The bore/stroke of the 350 is much better than the 305 which is why it performs so well. Its like a short guy playing basketball...they can be good, but most of the time get stomped on by the big guys.
peace
peace
10-31-2001, 11:51 AM
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Car: '90 Iroc
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Who gives a ****? Build whatever the fu(k you want. If it's fast, it's fast. If you're happy, you're happy, and if you beat a guy who have 50 more cu. in. and spent 2 times as much as you then good for you. It basically comes down to what you can afford and whether or not you want to make a point to others. But who cares about that, I just want to go fast. I know when I'm done with my buildup, I'll have a good time beating guys who've spent 3 times as much as me on their cars 
------------------
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'90 Iroc TPI 305, 5 spd B&M Ripper shifter, hopefully I can rob a bank or something and get more
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'90 Iroc TPI 305, 5 spd B&M Ripper shifter, hopefully I can rob a bank or something and get more
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10-31-2001, 05:46 PM
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So if you want bang for your buck...why doesn't everybody have a 400?
Provided that you are going to build an engine to drop in. Getting an old 400 isn't too much harder than finding a 350, at least from watching in the papers here.
Build an easy breathing 400 and you're talking some 480 to 500 smooth ponies, right?
Building a 350 is a little cheaper than a 400, but wouldn't the same philosphy apply in making cheaper horsepower?
Just a thought. You save the expensive of having to do as much machine work as you would with a 383, or a 335....
That might end up being what I do.
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
Provided that you are going to build an engine to drop in. Getting an old 400 isn't too much harder than finding a 350, at least from watching in the papers here.
Build an easy breathing 400 and you're talking some 480 to 500 smooth ponies, right?
Building a 350 is a little cheaper than a 400, but wouldn't the same philosphy apply in making cheaper horsepower?
Just a thought. You save the expensive of having to do as much machine work as you would with a 383, or a 335....
That might end up being what I do.
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http://www.gruveb.com/z28
10-31-2001, 07:51 PM
#28
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Allthou a nice 400 sb gives ya a lot of bang.
It won't give ya the same "bang for the buck"
The cores do cost more. and the pistons cost more. But it does build a beau-dee motor.
Mine should be ready for spring.
It won't give ya the same "bang for the buck"
The cores do cost more. and the pistons cost more. But it does build a beau-dee motor.
Mine should be ready for spring.
10-31-2001, 08:20 PM
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I do have a 400... for when I'm not in emissions mode....
muahahahahaha
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muahahahahaha
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10-31-2001, 09:41 PM
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RB,
What's your 400 set up? What kind of power and ET's do you get?
I don't have to worry about emissions down here, so I can run it full time, as long as it's semi-street-friendly.
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http://www.gruveb.com/z28
What's your 400 set up? What kind of power and ET's do you get?
I don't have to worry about emissions down here, so I can run it full time, as long as it's semi-street-friendly.
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http://www.gruveb.com/z28
10-31-2001, 10:11 PM
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400 with stock crank and rods, TRW pistons with lightweight pins, 186 casting double-hump heads with bolt holes (and some gentle port massaging), Comp XR282HR cam, Comp 1102 stainless roller rockers... good for drilling any Mustang, any L98, any LT1, and all but one of the LS1s (a 99 SS) it has come across on the street. I never have taken it to the track, but I'd guess it's somewhere in the mid 12s, 12.6-12.7. Of course, it has a full interior including A/C, spare tire, power everything, etc.; it would probably go a little lower if I put it on a diet. But it's my daily driver so I have resisted the temptation so far.
------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports
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"So many Mustangs, so little time..."
ICON Motorsports
10-31-2001, 10:26 PM
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I'd like to build my 305, but put it in some sort of tubeframe backyard 4wheeler. It's 450hp 383 for me!!!
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You have walked onto the biggest baddest dog porch and you will be dealt with accordingly.
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You have walked onto the biggest baddest dog porch and you will be dealt with accordingly.
I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct!
10-31-2001, 11:31 PM
#33
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What are the flow characteristics of your heads RB. Any porting polishing. I was thinking of getting some Trick Flow 23 heads for a 400...I think they have the 210 or 200 (can't remember it's very late) intake runners....but those are rather expensive.
Mid 12's is pretty good, damn good. And I've run across some of those heads for not nearly as much money. For 3/10's of a second and saving $500.00 you can do a lot of things different that would perhaps make you faster. Very interesting.
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Mid 12's is pretty good, damn good. And I've run across some of those heads for not nearly as much money. For 3/10's of a second and saving $500.00 you can do a lot of things different that would perhaps make you faster. Very interesting.
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11-01-2001, 12:28 AM
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I don't have much to add to this, but I'd never rebuild a 305 and I preach 305s everyday.
Also one thing that won't swap from a 305 to a 350/383 is the cam. Sure it will physically swap but for the $260 for a new one the HP will be more than worth it. Good Luck making a 305 streetable/daily driver with a cam in the 220+/230+ duration range(typical of built 350/383 maybe a bit small for a "hot street" 383). Keep that in mind when you decide to put a cam in your 305. ITS NOT going into the 350/383 down the road if your into performance.
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14.62@96mph headers, muffler, chip, ghetto stuff, duct tape
89 GTA 305 TPI 5 speed 3.42 gears
Also one thing that won't swap from a 305 to a 350/383 is the cam. Sure it will physically swap but for the $260 for a new one the HP will be more than worth it. Good Luck making a 305 streetable/daily driver with a cam in the 220+/230+ duration range(typical of built 350/383 maybe a bit small for a "hot street" 383). Keep that in mind when you decide to put a cam in your 305. ITS NOT going into the 350/383 down the road if your into performance.
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14.62@96mph headers, muffler, chip, ghetto stuff, duct tape
89 GTA 305 TPI 5 speed 3.42 gears
11-01-2001, 12:48 AM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Beast5spdGTA:
I don't have much to add to this, but I'd never rebuild a 305 and I preach 305s everyday.
Also one thing that won't swap from a 305 to a 350/383 is the cam. Sure it will physically swap but for the $260 for a new one the HP will be more than worth it. Good Luck making a 305 streetable/daily driver with a cam in the 220+/230+ duration range(typical of built 350/383 maybe a bit small for a "hot street" 383). Keep that in mind when you decide to put a cam in your 305. ITS NOT going into the 350/383 down the road if your into performance.
</font>
I don't have much to add to this, but I'd never rebuild a 305 and I preach 305s everyday.
Also one thing that won't swap from a 305 to a 350/383 is the cam. Sure it will physically swap but for the $260 for a new one the HP will be more than worth it. Good Luck making a 305 streetable/daily driver with a cam in the 220+/230+ duration range(typical of built 350/383 maybe a bit small for a "hot street" 383). Keep that in mind when you decide to put a cam in your 305. ITS NOT going into the 350/383 down the road if your into performance.
</font>
Still, a 305 running in the 14s without having to resort to a cam change is entirely within the realm of possibility. And 14s is a pretty good car.
11-01-2001, 02:38 AM
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Car: '86 TransAm WS6
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I think that most of us who ask about building our 305's are not interested in running 10's. Some of us are not interested in running the 1320 at all, so take that! What we want is an easy increase in performance out of our cars, so an engine swap is a little extreme of a 'mod'. I will be keeping my LB9 for a while, because I currently do not posess a drive way, much less a garage to do all my work in.
11-01-2001, 08:25 AM
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I've heard a few comments about not having to go 12 or 11 second quarters,and agree. Many 305 guys are happy with the car as is,and don't take their car to the track. I have the 305/tpi and add mods whenever I can in the search of hp.But if the 305 blew would I get the 350?...absolutely.A new 350 block is cheaper than a 305 in many cases.
I'll drive my 305 until it dies and the dollar/hp ratio is on my side,but when the 305 dies the dollar/hp ratio certainly goes to the 350 without question.
Here's one thing maybe all v8 guys can agree on.Whether you have a 305 or 350,it sure beats jumping in a 2.8/3.4 f-body. I've had the 3.4,and at that time would take ANY v8. The 305 and 350's are totally different in feel,sound,and performance that you just can't describe!I'm happy,at least for a little while...
------------------
*1989 IROC Z(White)
>305 TPI/700R4
>Flowmaster 3" Catback
>K&N Filters
>50k miles
I'll drive my 305 until it dies and the dollar/hp ratio is on my side,but when the 305 dies the dollar/hp ratio certainly goes to the 350 without question.
Here's one thing maybe all v8 guys can agree on.Whether you have a 305 or 350,it sure beats jumping in a 2.8/3.4 f-body. I've had the 3.4,and at that time would take ANY v8. The 305 and 350's are totally different in feel,sound,and performance that you just can't describe!I'm happy,at least for a little while...
------------------
*1989 IROC Z(White)
>305 TPI/700R4
>Flowmaster 3" Catback
>K&N Filters
>50k miles
11-01-2001, 08:58 AM
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Car: 1968 Camaro
Engine: 406
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One important thing that many people overlook when comparing a 400 rebuild to a 87 + 350 rebuild is the roller cam. A roller cam enjoys significant benefits over a flat tappet hydraulic, and as such, should be considered when the topic is brought up. You can go ahead and add an easy $300 for lifters on top of the rebuild to an already expensive 400 rebuild. Where do you live? I would love to live in a town where 400's were as common as 350's and the streets flowed with milk and honey!
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355 c.i.
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13.9@102
------------------
355 c.i.
Dart 180 Heads
Lunati 224/224 cam
Harland Sharp 1.5 rockers
Performer RPM Manifold
Holley 600 cfm double pumper
Hooker Super Competition Headers
Flowmaster Exhaust
Competition Engineering Sub-frame connectors
Super T-10
GM posi 3.42 rear
Hurst Roll Control
13.9@102
11-01-2001, 10:04 AM
#39
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TPI Guy,
I think you're missing my original point. All I meant to show is that putting money into your 305 is NOT a waste of money. If for nothing else, most people who are wanting to put the money in their 305's are either a little under-experienced or they don't expect to be in the 12 second bracket. It is a good solid foundation for both making economical and very decent power, and a good place to start learning.
As far as building an engine from the ground up goes, at least in my mind, it is a different game entirely. Not only do you have to shell out more money in a shorter period of time, but you're skill and knowledge have to be greater. Not to mention, tools, space and so on.
To me, taking the approach of building an engine in that fashion, I'd want about 550 horsepower or so. I think, I may be wrong, but I believe that it would probably be cheaper in the long run, and a more reliable engine. That is the 400 would produce that type of power more easily and cost less
money over all.
I didn't say that a 400 is as cheap to rebuild as a 350. Nor did I say that they were as common. I just meant that they aren't that much harder to find, and don't cost that much more, considering how much more potential they have.
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
I think you're missing my original point. All I meant to show is that putting money into your 305 is NOT a waste of money. If for nothing else, most people who are wanting to put the money in their 305's are either a little under-experienced or they don't expect to be in the 12 second bracket. It is a good solid foundation for both making economical and very decent power, and a good place to start learning.
As far as building an engine from the ground up goes, at least in my mind, it is a different game entirely. Not only do you have to shell out more money in a shorter period of time, but you're skill and knowledge have to be greater. Not to mention, tools, space and so on.
To me, taking the approach of building an engine in that fashion, I'd want about 550 horsepower or so. I think, I may be wrong, but I believe that it would probably be cheaper in the long run, and a more reliable engine. That is the 400 would produce that type of power more easily and cost less
money over all.
I didn't say that a 400 is as cheap to rebuild as a 350. Nor did I say that they were as common. I just meant that they aren't that much harder to find, and don't cost that much more, considering how much more potential they have.
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
11-01-2001, 10:28 AM
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Nice subject! $ for $ 350 comes out on top mosty people would gladly pay $300 for more hp and tq with a solid proven base to build even more power. Were talking long run here. In the now, all the bolt on's will add power to the 305 but you will reach a point where you need to spend larger amounts of money to get more power when using a 305. A 350 will not reach that point as quickly and in general will react better with minor mods. It's like the parable in the bible build your house on sand or a solid foundation of rock. Sure they will both stand but for how long? The one built on sand will eventualy sink. Reaching the point where more has to be put in it for the desired results.
Dont get me wrong or anything a 305 is a great working engine but if I have to pull the engine out to rebuild im not going to use it because later it hit a wall and and the only reasonalbe solution is to replace it with a larger displament engine.
Either way!
SSC
Dont get me wrong or anything a 305 is a great working engine but if I have to pull the engine out to rebuild im not going to use it because later it hit a wall and and the only reasonalbe solution is to replace it with a larger displament engine.
Either way!
SSC
11-01-2001, 01:39 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gruveb:
So if you want bang for your buck...why doesn't everybody have a 400?
</font>
So if you want bang for your buck...why doesn't everybody have a 400?
</font>
On another note, I under stand somewhat about how the smaller bore on a 305 hinders performance, but it is still quite over square. 3.74" bore and a 3.48" stroke. There are TONS of other engines that produce way higher specific output than a healthy modded 305, and they are square or even UNDER square. If the 305's valves are shrouded, then how can these engines make a way higher specific output? Off the top of my head I can think of the Acura Integra Type R, and the BMW M3. Both these engines make ~100hp/liter, stock, N/A. Could you even GET a 305 to do that??? So I find it curious that the Mustang's 302, and Chevy's 302 make more hp due to a "better" bore/stroke ratio while most modern engines are square or under square. Even Fords junk modular, 2 valve 4.6 makes 260hp totally stock, and that motor is square. Would these engines make even MORE power with a better bore/stroke ratio...all other parts being equal?
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'83 Trans Am: 400 CID oil burning junkyard long block, 224/234 crane cam, Summit aluminum roller rockers, hand ported intake, home bored 2.09" (53mm) throttle bodies, MSD 454 injectors(75 lb/hr), Holley 255LPH fuel pump, custum modded FPR, Edelbrock TES headers, SLP 3" stainless steel cat back, stock ECM & chip. Borg/Warner T-5 World Class, 12" Corvette rotors and clipers, GTA 16" wheels, South Side Machine subframe connectors, 1LE sway bars, 3.45 ring and pinion, Alpine sound.
Best E.T. 13.257
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[This message has been edited by Tom 400 CFI (edited November 01, 2001).]
11-01-2001, 02:57 PM
#42
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Tom are your times corrected or uncorrected? You should mention your altitude if they are uncorrected (real) times.
But I'll bet that the low 13's are pretty easy on that engine. In another words, you're not pushing the limits of the engine.
The horsepower figures can be mis-leading. Horsepower is rather like voltage. You can run 10,000 volts through your body with having no other effect than making your hair stand on end. However, add amps, and that's where the kick comes in.
Same is true with horsepower. The horsepower is only 1/3 (so to speak) of the equation. Torque is just like the amps, that's where the kick comes in. Horsepower is more relative to the speed of the engine, but torque is how fast it gets there. Some of those high horsepower, low torque engines can be a real scream, but they are NOT going to make you swallow your filling when you romp on the gas pedal.
The other side of the story is this....many of those vehicles that you are referring to have multiple valves per cylinder, superior air induction, and ignition systems, over head cams and so on. They make better use of the technology available. They are simply put, more volumetrically effecient. Our SBC's are really dinosaurs. For the most part we are using the same root method that has been used for over 50 years now.
However, a 305 can't quite get to 500 horsepower (the 100hp/1 liter displacement) but it can get very close while still being streetable. Actually, I'll bet that with a well designed twin turbo set up, it could. I'm talking rear wheel here too. There are guys with well over 400 rear wheel horsepower (dyno tested) out of their 305's. I know because I have seen one of them. It does take using some of the more sophisticated parts around though. Now we aren't talking naturally aspirated engines anymore, but hey, they use a lot of things that we cannot....so what can you say.
I also know that there have been buildups of 305's carbed getting 405 horsepower. Things can be done.
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
But I'll bet that the low 13's are pretty easy on that engine. In another words, you're not pushing the limits of the engine.
The horsepower figures can be mis-leading. Horsepower is rather like voltage. You can run 10,000 volts through your body with having no other effect than making your hair stand on end. However, add amps, and that's where the kick comes in.
Same is true with horsepower. The horsepower is only 1/3 (so to speak) of the equation. Torque is just like the amps, that's where the kick comes in. Horsepower is more relative to the speed of the engine, but torque is how fast it gets there. Some of those high horsepower, low torque engines can be a real scream, but they are NOT going to make you swallow your filling when you romp on the gas pedal.
The other side of the story is this....many of those vehicles that you are referring to have multiple valves per cylinder, superior air induction, and ignition systems, over head cams and so on. They make better use of the technology available. They are simply put, more volumetrically effecient. Our SBC's are really dinosaurs. For the most part we are using the same root method that has been used for over 50 years now.
However, a 305 can't quite get to 500 horsepower (the 100hp/1 liter displacement) but it can get very close while still being streetable. Actually, I'll bet that with a well designed twin turbo set up, it could. I'm talking rear wheel here too. There are guys with well over 400 rear wheel horsepower (dyno tested) out of their 305's. I know because I have seen one of them. It does take using some of the more sophisticated parts around though. Now we aren't talking naturally aspirated engines anymore, but hey, they use a lot of things that we cannot....so what can you say.
I also know that there have been buildups of 305's carbed getting 405 horsepower. Things can be done.
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http://www.gruveb.com/z28
11-01-2001, 07:04 PM
#43
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gruveb:
Tom are your times corrected or uncorrected? You should mention your altitude if they are uncorrected (real) times.</font>
Tom are your times corrected or uncorrected? You should mention your altitude if they are uncorrected (real) times.</font>
I used the NHRA correction to get the numbers above, but they are backed up by the fact that I always beat stockish LS1's, and I ran a 13.5 @ 102mph in Las Vegas(2200' elev) on a 4200' corrected alt day, with a steady 25mph head wind.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gruveb:
But I'll bet that the low 13's are pretty easy on that engine. In another words, you're not pushing the limits of the engine..</font>
But I'll bet that the low 13's are pretty easy on that engine. In another words, you're not pushing the limits of the engine..</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gruveb:
The horsepower figures can be mis-leading. Horsepower is rather like voltage. You can run 10,000 volts through your body with having no other effect than making your hair stand on end. However, add amps, and that's where the kick comes in.</font>
The horsepower figures can be mis-leading. Horsepower is rather like voltage. You can run 10,000 volts through your body with having no other effect than making your hair stand on end. However, add amps, and that's where the kick comes in.</font>
I also had the thought of the fact that the examples have four valves per cylinder as I was typing them in, and maybe that is why they can get away with smaller bores(?)
But when you get back to the Mustangs 4.6, it has 2 valves/ cyl, and a specific output of 56 hp. I really don't think the over head cam helps this engine, as slow as it revs. I DO believe the Mustangs heads flow much better than stock 305 heads, but don't know that for a fact.
So would a 305 make 282hp (56 hp/liter) if you ran a 210ish degree cam, cast manifolds, decent intake, and....say AFR's smallest head (to make it somewaht comparable to the 4.6)? Even if you could, which you might, the 305 still has a better bore/stroke ratio. I guess what my piont is, is that people claim that the 305 is limited by a bore that is too small and it shouds a good sized valve. So essentially the bore->stroke ratio is not good. You could make a motor have more power with the same displacement having a bigger bore, and a shorter stroke. Fair enough, but consider this; The bore->stoke ratio on a 305 is 1.074. The bore->stroke ratio on a 4.6 is 1.000. The bore->stroke ratio on a 383 is 1.074!! And people LOVE the 383. Couldn't you "make a motor have more power with the same displacement having a bigger bore, and a shorter stroke"?! It seems to me that the 383 is hindered by the same geometrical challange that the 305 is. Just on a larger scale. I bet if I go through my car mags, I can find a bunch of 2 valve engines that make a higher specific output than a stoutish 305. Just so you know, I think a 305 w/cam, heads, intake, and headers is "stoutish" and I think that would produce about 280 hp, resulting in a specific output of ~56hp/liter. So you know where I'm coming from.
Also, please understand that I DO NOT prefer 305's! I will probably never have one again. But there seems to be a descrepancy to me as to why a 305 is so weak compared to a 350, and the answer of bore/stroke ratio isn't quite doing it for me. Am I missing something here?
11-01-2001, 10:54 PM
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Car: 91 Formula, 79 Trans Am, 72 LeMans
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I am figured 1200 for what i paid for my motor, complete carb to oil pan, for a 400 plus h.p. 355 engine. 305 short blocks make good flower pots!!!
------------------
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355 engine (in machine shop) approx. 400 HP
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------------------
1989 Camaro RS
355 engine (in machine shop) approx. 400 HP
750 Holley D.P.
Turbo 350 w/B&M Shift kit
3.73 Richmond Gears
Daily Driver (till Camaro is done)
1972 Pontiac LeMans 2Door
red with tan top
350 V-8
Edelbrock Perf. Intake
Rochester Carb
Turbo 350 tranny
True Dual Exhaust
New Addition (Don't tell my girlfriend!!)
1968 Pontiac GTO
Rust free body
White with Black Interior
Original 4-Speed Car
Hideaway Headlights
"If Bin Laden were in town, he would drive a Civic."
11-02-2001, 09:00 AM
#45
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Tom,
Well said. And what you are saying about a 383 is very interesting. That's basically the same concept that created our 305's. Longer stroker, relatively small bore. When done properly, a 305 can really scream, just like any other engine can. So you have an engine that produces a lot of torque considering it's displacement.
That's one reason why I am so interested in building a 327 or maybe a 377. I don't think I will do either just yet...I'll probably just do a 400.
I haven't purchased anything yet for my 305 that I can't apply to a 400, except for a cam, which I would NOT re-use anyhow. The carb I have I would only keep on the 305 for my daily driving. So with that in mind, I'll probably throw some SLP headers (1 3/4) on, and call it quits with building up my 305.
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
Well said. And what you are saying about a 383 is very interesting. That's basically the same concept that created our 305's. Longer stroker, relatively small bore. When done properly, a 305 can really scream, just like any other engine can. So you have an engine that produces a lot of torque considering it's displacement.
That's one reason why I am so interested in building a 327 or maybe a 377. I don't think I will do either just yet...I'll probably just do a 400.
I haven't purchased anything yet for my 305 that I can't apply to a 400, except for a cam, which I would NOT re-use anyhow. The carb I have I would only keep on the 305 for my daily driving. So with that in mind, I'll probably throw some SLP headers (1 3/4) on, and call it quits with building up my 305.
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11-04-2001, 12:12 PM
#46
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Anyone else have any thoughts on my bore/stroke ratio observation? This has been bugging my mind for quite some time, and when I saw this topic, I decided to state my observation.
11-04-2001, 01:52 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TPI Guy:
Testify Brother! I just wanted to get on the "I hate 305's" bandwagon.
</font>
Testify Brother! I just wanted to get on the "I hate 305's" bandwagon.
</font>
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11-04-2001, 06:07 PM
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Tom,
I picked up on what you are saying, and I find it interesting. I have read some books that talk extensively about the ratio, but it's been so long ago, that I don't remember the details. Essentially, too long of a stroke compared to the bore can be counter productive.
What is the ratio for a 400? And a 350? 327?
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
I picked up on what you are saying, and I find it interesting. I have read some books that talk extensively about the ratio, but it's been so long ago, that I don't remember the details. Essentially, too long of a stroke compared to the bore can be counter productive.
What is the ratio for a 400? And a 350? 327?
------------------
http://www.gruveb.com/z28
11-04-2001, 06:14 PM
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I want to outline the facts, here. Some things I say may be obvious to some, but I feel they still need to be said. For the most part, there are three groups represented in this post:
1. The 350 swap group.
2. The "I want to be different and build a
305 to go fast" group.
3. The "I want to make simple mods to my 305"
group.
First off, a 350 swap is the best bang-for-the-buck mod you can do. You can build more power with a 350 than with a 305 when given the same budget, period (discounting any "screaming deals" you may get on certain parts) - this holds especially true for those who want to run 12.99 or quicker N/A @106mph.
Second, if you want to be different, it is possible to build an excruciatingly fast 305 that will have most 350s shaking in their boots. However, the price of being different could leave a hole in your wallet the size of a Buick - I don't have that much money to spend on just the engine.
Third, there are some of you who just want to work with what you have and add bolt-ons to your 305, which is OK for adding that extra seat of the pants feel.
If I remember correctly, the person who posted this topic had already added a few bolt-ons to his motor and said something about not being able to use his 305 parts on a 350, costing him even more money in the long run. With all due respect, proper planning could have saved him cash/personal time. Bang for the buck INCLUDES proper planning and preperation - something I didn't see mentioned in this post thus far.
P.S. - Whoever ran a 13.4 with their 305, what was the trap speed of that run?
P.P.S. - my best run with the mods i have, including STOCK heads, STOCK cam, and STOCK bottom end, was a 13.8 @ 100mph.
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1990 Firebird Formula 350 speed density TPI; Edelbrock HI-FLO base and Runners w/portmached plenum; air foil; Comp Cams 1.6rr; Edelbrock 1&5/8" headers; MSD 6AL, HEI coil & plug wires; underdrive pullies; Hypertech stage II chip; AFPR; B&M stage II shift kit; 3.73:1 rear; Jamex 1.5" lowering coils; Spohn subframe connectors, LCA's, and LCA relocation brackets; free mods; !cats; !Smog Pump; PLUS...1300w stereo weighing 200 lbs.
1. The 350 swap group.
2. The "I want to be different and build a
305 to go fast" group.
3. The "I want to make simple mods to my 305"
group.
First off, a 350 swap is the best bang-for-the-buck mod you can do. You can build more power with a 350 than with a 305 when given the same budget, period (discounting any "screaming deals" you may get on certain parts) - this holds especially true for those who want to run 12.99 or quicker N/A @106mph.
Second, if you want to be different, it is possible to build an excruciatingly fast 305 that will have most 350s shaking in their boots. However, the price of being different could leave a hole in your wallet the size of a Buick - I don't have that much money to spend on just the engine.
Third, there are some of you who just want to work with what you have and add bolt-ons to your 305, which is OK for adding that extra seat of the pants feel.
If I remember correctly, the person who posted this topic had already added a few bolt-ons to his motor and said something about not being able to use his 305 parts on a 350, costing him even more money in the long run. With all due respect, proper planning could have saved him cash/personal time. Bang for the buck INCLUDES proper planning and preperation - something I didn't see mentioned in this post thus far.
P.S. - Whoever ran a 13.4 with their 305, what was the trap speed of that run?
P.P.S. - my best run with the mods i have, including STOCK heads, STOCK cam, and STOCK bottom end, was a 13.8 @ 100mph.
------------------
1990 Firebird Formula 350 speed density TPI; Edelbrock HI-FLO base and Runners w/portmached plenum; air foil; Comp Cams 1.6rr; Edelbrock 1&5/8" headers; MSD 6AL, HEI coil & plug wires; underdrive pullies; Hypertech stage II chip; AFPR; B&M stage II shift kit; 3.73:1 rear; Jamex 1.5" lowering coils; Spohn subframe connectors, LCA's, and LCA relocation brackets; free mods; !cats; !Smog Pump; PLUS...1300w stereo weighing 200 lbs.
11-04-2001, 06:19 PM
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tom 400 CFI:
But there seems to be a descrepancy to me as to why a 305 is so weak compared to a 350, and the answer of bore/stroke ratio isn't quite doing it for me. Am I missing something here?[/B]</font>
But there seems to be a descrepancy to me as to why a 305 is so weak compared to a 350, and the answer of bore/stroke ratio isn't quite doing it for me. Am I missing something here?[/B]</font>
Head porting is the only way to compensate N/A.