Everytime I start up my T/A, I blow out a cloud of white smoke. Doesn't smoke after the car is running, only when starting it after it sits for a little bit.
I've been told that it is my valve seals.
Is that the problem?
If so, how hard is it to change them?
I am a newbie at automotive repair, only started to fix cars about 5 months ago.
I was able to install my new carb, dist., intake manifold, valve covers, and plugs & wires. I was able to remove my smog parts and a/c parts.
Am I mechanically proficiant to do the valve seals job myself, or should I just have a shop do it?
Thanks guys, I've learned so much in so little time with all the tips and tricks you guys provide.

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Zepher
'86 Pontiac Trans Am WS6, 5 Speed:
Edelbrock 1406 Carb, Edelbrock Performer RPM 7101 Intake Manifold.
Edelbrock Open Element Air Cleaner: Flowmaster Exhaust, 160* Thermostat,
Grant GT Steering Wheel, MSD HEI Coil, Taylor 8mm Wires, Recaro Seats,
Alpine CD+Changer,Rockford & Soundstream Amps, Premier TS-1040C Subs, Polk Audio highs/mids.

86 Trans Am & Girls

 

1st I would have to agree that the white smoke at start up then quits is valve stem seals.

It is not that hard to do with the right tools. You will need an adapter to screw into the sparkplug hole to keep compressed air in there as to keep the valve from dropping. If the valve drops you will have to pull the head. You will also need a valve spring compressor, you should be able to rent these at autozone or advance auto I believe, just for a deposit which is refunded when you return the tool.

Once you have compressed air in the Cylinder you will use the valve spring compressor, there are couple different types so I will not give specifics on using it, you will remove the locks sit them aside remove the spring, remove the old seal install the new seal, (I prefer umbrella seals), install the spring, I like to use some assembly lube a dab of it on the lock to help keep it in place when reinstalling. Do both valves on that cylinder then move to the next cylinder.

They are not all the difficult. Just some patience. I hope this make sense as I am tired and work is boring me to death right now here.

Later

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86 Camaro SC, 310, Edlebrock Intake and Carb, Flowtec Headers, Ported polished heads and intake. TH350 tranny, Jacobs Electronics Ignition.

[This message has been edited by -=Nitro7=- (edited September 18, 2000).]

 

Nitro has got it dialed......A couple of things though.

Use a rubber mallet and after you have removed the rockers and pushrods, give a tap on the top of the valves, this will usually loosen the keepers, making them easier to remove.

The seals that you will be replacing are going to look like little O-rings (if they are still there ) at the top of the valve.....I don't suggest putting these back on, like said above, get umbrella seals to replace the crappy O-rings.

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ASE Mechanic/Machinist/Smog Tech

1999 NBM Trans Am, flowmaster,FRA,Pro Kit,BMR STB, polished calipers.
1986 Chevy 3/4 ton pick up,flowmasters,4.10s,
1981 corvette FOR SALE
1995 ZX6R,Yosh,D207s

GO #3

 

White smoke (steam???) at start-up could be head gasket... Blue smoke (oil) is usually valve seals, no?

 

Some tips from my experience.
Adapter for the plug holes = the 1' hose from a compression tester with the air valve removed from the one end - don't lose the little dang thing tho. Hopefully your air hose end mates up to the one on the compression tester - mine did.
Valve spring compressor = the screw type from whatever parts store WITH the removable ****... last one on the pass. side really sucks without it... I had 15 valves done with a borrowed VS compressor and had to go buy the new one.
Seals: I like the Crane umbrella's with the 2 metal ring clips on them.

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'89 Formula - Thunderchicken - 355 Vetteheaded TPI/T-5/3.45 9-bolt/black/t-tops - the fun car!
'90 GTA - The GTA - 5.0 LB9/TH700/3.27 9-bolt/black/t-tops/tan leather - the cruiser.

 

Thanks guys. I am going to give it a shot in a couple of weeks.

 

Another alternative to compressed air is to remove the spark plug and get about 6' of rope. Bring the piston to TDC(top dead center), then start sliding the rope into the combustion chamber and begin removing the keepers, springs. Do this for each set of valves I/E.
I usually do the seals in order of the engines firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Pull your distributor cap off, bump the starter to get the timing mark on your harmonic balancer to zero (or close to it) and the rotor should be pointing to the #1 spark plug wire terminal. Then do the rope thing, change the seals, and proceed to cylinder #8, by bumping the starter to get the rotor to the #8 terminal position..... This is kind of a pain, but worth it.

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Neil 383 IROC-Z: TFS heads/JE pistons 10.8:1/ 24lb/hr SVO inj./ Edelbrock Runners&Base/ Strange 12Bolt Diff./ Neil's Home-Built BulletProof 700R4+Vigilante 2800 stall converter & much more.........

 

i dont understand why everyone keeps insinuating that valve seal leak is a bad thing.. it is probably one of the better things that could happen on startup, you have a bit of oil sitting in your cylinder that helps lube the cylinder wall when you turn the key.. sure, it may look bad.. but the alternatives i'm sure are alot worse.. and we are talking about a few drops here, not gallons and gallons... not even a teaspoon, maybe 20 drops? hell, that's literally a drop in the bucket.. why waste a whole weekend (and make more if you drop a valve down and have to remove your heads!) just to help promote more cylinder wear? i never understand that..

 

Please tell us you are joking? First off all, the oil does NOT fall on top of the cylinders, but on the valve seat. This constant drip of oil on the seat (if not sucked in by the combustion chamber during the intake stroke), after time and being heated, will turn into crud that will prevent your valve from fully closing and you WILL lose more performance (due to a drop in cylinder pressure). Even if the oil did fall onto the piston, it would fall on the dish (OEM pistons), face or the valve relief, not on the edge where the rings are. This also creates crud in the chamber. Any oil that slips through the seal (or guides) will never be enough to "lubricate" the cylinder walls on start up, it will burn off before anything (which is what is causing the puff of smoke).

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George P. Lara
1994 Z28 LT1 T56
1984 Z28 High Output
Member: SCCA, SCFB, SC3GFB

[This message has been edited by MRZ28HO (edited September 18, 2000).]

 

hey man, my Dad owns a 1972 1/2 ton big block Chevy truck that does it all the time, and as the 300 foot burnouts attest, it runs fine even after 220,000 miles with the majority of it having the valve seals leaking. true, big blocks have slightly different seals, but my '72 SS350 El Camino was sold to my uncle with valve seals that leaked so bad it looked like a friggin disel on startup and it used no oil, barely half a quart every 3,000 miles. trust me, i bagged the **** out of it too. true, leaking oil will be a major cause of blow-back both into the intake and exhaust valves and cause depositis, but i look at it this way.. if it aint broke don't fix it. it's a common SBC problem, and many SBCs last over 200,000 miles without a rebuild.. small problem IMO

 

Neil's description of how to perform this surgery without compressed air is right... it's the method I used when I did my valves last year. The only thing I would add is that when the piston is at TDC, you really don't need any sort of rope in the cylinder to keep the valve from dropping. Removing the keepers while the piston is at TDC allows the valve to drop maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inch at most. Just be a little careful, as the valve edge is now resting on the aluminum cylinder top. Hardened steel can dent smooth aluminum.

When you get to the point where you are buttonning the system back up and setting the hydraulic lash, you will find that there are a lot of opinions on how much additional rotation you should give the rocker nuts past the zero-slack point on the pushrods. I gave mine about 5/8 of a turn past the zero-slack point. I feel that this is a good compromise value to use. Some guys recommend 1/2 turn, others recommend 3/4 turn. I just split the difference for my car.

 

Back to white smoke: That is NOT valve seals! You are getting coolant into the combustion chamber, either through a blown head gasket or cracked head. There are other, less likely possibilities, but changing the valve seals will not fix anything. That it only happens cold strongly suggests a cracked head.

You need to pull those heads and find out what's going on. While it might not be an immediate problem, long-term you don't want water in the cylinders.

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82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car. Rescued w/86 LG4/TH700R with all harnesses, sensors, ECM, etc. 3.08 open, cat-back from '91 GTA, Accel HEI SuperCoil. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily driver, work-in-progress (LB9 w/ZZ3 cam, World 305 heads, exhaust, paint, etc.).
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. Currently 396 .030 over, Weiand Action+, Edelbrock 1901 Q-Jet, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" headers, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & shift kit, 3.08 10-bolt, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Best 15.1 @ 5800' Bandimere. Daily driver while Camaro was being put together.

 

Could also be some water in the muffler. But if it is the valve seals it may eventually start to foul spark plugs like it's doing on my car. Just wish I didn't have to dig through the smog snakes to get at the damn valve covers. Good luck

 

.

 

Actually, the deal is that most people cant tell the difference looking out their back window or rear view mirror as to the actual color of the smoke unless its just flat out black. Its light colored (which really, the blue smoke is) then its white. Most of the time its the seals. If it were white, and water, it wouldnt only do it on startup, they do that under heavy acceleration too.

 

The smoke you see at start up is generally due to valve stem seals. The reason it does not have a typical blue appearance may be due to the fact that the cat has some influence in changing its appearance. A coolant leak into the cylinder will not go away after start up. Many times if a coolant leak is due to a cracked head, it doesn't appear until the engine warms up & the crack "grows open". So, seeing smoke is just one piece of information. When it occurrs or doesn't occurr paints more of the picture. Oil coming past the valve stem/guide/seal is not going to lubricate anything but the stem & guide. After that, its burned in the combustion process. Leaking stem seals promotes carbon deposit formation on the underheads of the valves, lower portions of the stems, & to the throat portion of the ports, under the valve seats. Plug fouling is also possible. Obviously, all this gradually takes time to occurr & build up. Significant deposits in the ports/valves will restrict flow. Deposits on the stems will act as an abrasive on the lower portion of the valve guide. Will the engine still run? Sure. Will your engine run good as new over a long period of time. No, not as good as it could. Besides, a smoking car gives it that "beater" look to it.
Regards, FJK

[This message has been edited by FJK (edited September 19, 2000).]

 

Brian umbrella seals don't have spring clips on them. Your seals are known as positive seals, they lock onto the guide with the bottom clip and seal against the valve with the upper one. If you didn't push them down onto the guide you wasted a lot of time. They will just ride up and down on the valve and seal nothing. Umbrella seals do ride up and down on the valve but they extend past the guide when the valve is open and prevent oil from getting into the guide. A little oil in the guides is important to keep them cool and lubricated, umbrella and positive seals both allow a tiny amount of oil into the guide. That is why nylon positive seals should never be used in a street car. They allow no oil into the guides.

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82 z28 350cid, vortec heads, comp 262h cam, Holley 600cfm carb, 2in twice pipes, MSD ignition, turbo 350 trans, 3.73 posi

 

82Z:
I'm well aware of all your points. Thanks for pointing it out to avoid confusion for others. Sometimes I generalize just to keep the confusion factor down for some of the folks who haven't spent 20 years washing up with go-jo and lava but I won't take nothing personal since you're a fellow Michigander!!! (Born in Detroit, raised in the sticks of Armada.)


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'89 Formula - Thunderchicken - 355 Vetteheaded TPI/T-5/3.45 9-bolt/black/t-tops - the fun car!
'90 GTA - The GTA - 5.0 LB9/TH700/3.27 9-bolt/black/t-tops/tan leather - the cruiser.

 

Where do I buy these?


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Brady
"I see myself as a huge fiery comet, a shooting star. Everyone stops, points up and gasps "Oh look at that!" Then- whoosh, and I'm gone...and they'll never see anything like it ever again... and they won't be able to forget me- ever."~Jim Morrison

 

gents,
Interesting thread. My '89 RS 305 smokes on start-up, and I've also gone thru' the issues of black/white/blue/water/oil scenarios, and have decided it's most likely the valve stem seals. As I'm a novice a couple of questions :

1. Am I right in understanding that this operation can be completed WITHOUT removing the heads????

2. My motor only claims 51,000 miles, and I thought this was a bit light for valve stem seal replacment. However, it's ony covered 4,000 miles since 1996 (import from California to UK), can the seals have hardened/cracked through long standing periods?

Thanks,
Paul

 

My car has 63,000 miles and it has the valve seal problem. This is just a thing that comes with owning one of these cars. Eventually I am going to replace them but for now I am not sweating it. Its not going to hurt the engine having some leaky valve seals for a few months. It is more of an annoyance that anything. Like FJK says it gives the car a little of a beater look. But since this only happens when the engine is cold and my exhaust sounds sweet my friends don't consider it at all.

 

Trans87,
I agree. But crawling out of a show from cold, taking 1 hour, was a lot of smoke!! Bloody embarassing!

Paul

 

I agree, the smoke can be a little annoying. My Iroc does it too. It is just a daily though. Right now I am trying to finish the resto on my 70 Monte and my husband has his own projects going. I hope to get to it for this coming winter project.

I had my mothers 70 Monte over this winter (still have it ) and one of the things I did was pull her heads off and took them to the machine shop to have them reworked. She was having the same problem with her motor. I don't know how much it costs in the UK or elsewhere in the states for that matter, but I got her heads reworked for 165.00. Her motor runs great now and no smoke.

One thing that can cause the smoke too if it has smoked since you got it is that people can be impatient and not wait for a engine break in before getting on it. If they do this before the rings,etc have time to seed then the car will always smoke.

 

Monte,
Unfortunately don't know of entire vehicle provenance. i.e. could have been thrashed for all it's life in CA. Whilst I've done most of the basic tuning, I'm not up for a heads off repair.

Hopefully the engine will look even cleaner than it does today...........

 

That motor is outstanding! It really does look great. Did you buy it in that condition or have you spent a lot of time getting it to look like that?

And while I am asking...how much did it cost you to ship the car to the UK? I have been knocking around the idea of getting a Holden and the only way I can get it is if it is sent to UK and they send it to me here in the US. So, I figure the cost should be somewhat the same.

 

p.s. It costs about $140 just for the top end gasket set (supply only), plus about $350 to fit them. I'll get valve re-seat in for that I guess. Hope I don't get that phone call a day in with the infamous mechanics "sucking in between teeth/whistling out between teeth" etc..

 

You know...I am sure there are quite a few people on this board that would run down to the parts store and send you what ever you want. It would have to be a lot cheaper then what your paying for it over there. Just a thought.

Just to clarify, is the 350 to pull your heads and put the new gaskets on? If so...that doesn't sound that bad.

 

monte,
here's the before picture in the engine bay!!

I didn't actually import the vehicle, I'm the 2nd owner in the Uk since '96. I can get you some details on AUS > UK imports if you like.

Paul