Ok, I know 350 builds are done to death but Id like some help with this. I mean I know some things but Im clueless on numbers in certain cases(like why would you mill a 195 cc set of heads to with 68 cc chambers down to 58 cc?)

Well anyways Im looking at getting 450 out of a nonmachined 350 shortblock, drag racing(large powerband) with a 2speed trans(MUST BE CARBED)

Price limit without block 2k$, perf less
I can probably get parts cheaper than they sell at jegs through a friend so I just need to get a build together t hats in the range Im looking for.

Then of course theres always the e-way.

Anyways what I was thinking was
Heads: airflows 195s
Pistons: Speedpros Hyperuetics
Rods: forged?
Cam:??(not really sure.... I mean I know meaning of lobe and duration but not really sure of the effect of them, i do know about powerbands though)
Carb:Speed demon 850 or dual 450s?
Intake manifold: Victor Jr single plane or a double?
headers: longpipe open(dont include in price)
rockers: suggestions?
lifters: suggestions?



feel free to completely trash that build and offer a different, just keep in mind my requirements.

 

Help us understand more fully here:

Heads $1400
Pistons $200
Rods: $300
Crank $300
Carb $400
Intake $200
Headers $250
Cam& lifter kit $150
Rockers $200
Machine work $???? (Nice to say you're not going to do any; not likely on this planet)
Gaskets, fluids, hoses, tune-up parts, exhaust, etc. $????

All assuming some not particularly high-end parts; except for the heads of course. Just run-of-the-mill type stuff.

And you're wanting to do this on a $2000 budget? Is that what you mean?

Hmmmmm..... I see difficulties headed your way... good luck

 

yea, whatever you budget, add 30% or so.

I'll recommend a few "cheap" sources of those parts, that I went with:

Ohio rods, $159, forged 4340, w/ 6pt ARP bolts. About the best deal going IMHO

summit brand bearings, $13 (rod or main)

those are good pistons, I think maybe $100 though. I paid $200 for them in canada, and they're $90US a set on summit/jegs...

AFR heads are super hyped on this board. They take a long time to get apparently, and are very pricey. Maybe look into darts? Or some modified vortec style castings off of summit (with performance machine work pre-done), might be a good idea.
I think you'd be very hard pressed to do the complete motor for under $3k, unless you skip a few things, or re-use many parts, which is a pretty bad idea.

 

sorry let me rephrase that. looking for rough ideas and thanks for telling me some good souces for lower costs.
Id like to do this without machine work if possible.

I think(im in class right now) that I saw airflow heads and others running 450-800 per a pair. Budgeting is for longterm(ie find best prices and have patience),
I know the heads and the carb are gonna be my biggest $$$$, for carb I may be getting a stand in free(my uncle has a bunch of stuff I gotta make room for before I go and pick up[built 350 I havent looked at yet, along with carbs and assorted stuff]).

Lets approach the problem from a different direction maybe.... To get 450 out of an engine, what are we looking for in compression, flow, etc(for the different parts), once this is found it should be possible to put together a list on my own through research, but as I said earlier, I havent done this before and dont have alot of time to read detailed engine building books and stuff like that. sorry if Im rambling but I dont really know how to say it without sounding totally ignorant, Ive read how tos, read the boards, skimmed through catalogs, but not sure how to put together a good combination of parts I guess.....


heh, Ill likely have to go back later and write a new one of these when Im more coherent... I hate test days.....

 

I haven't seen those heads that cheap before...?
look for upcoming swap meets, or check on the boards here for some used parts. If you're patient, the right parts will come along.

what shape is the block in now? I think you'll need machine work done to it no matter what, 'specially if it's in rough shape, or you want it to last very long.

cheap, fast, or reliable, pick the two that you want here.
this a street car? more street then track? oh wait, 2spd, this is a track only car then? cheap and fast I take it?

 

Time for a reality check:

http://motors.search.ebay.com/sbc-af...ofocusZunknown

Maybe you saw "others" at that kind of price, but I doubt you saw AFRs for that.

No, actually, whether you feel like admitting to yourself right now or not, MACHINE WORK is going to be the next single biggest expense; right behind heads, or maybe more. Building a high-power motor without any machine work is a pipe dream.

I think you need to figure out how to get some time to do some more practical research on this whole hobby, before you think you're just going to jump in and build a mountain motor to compete in what sounds like racing in a sanctioned class (read: against people who do that exact thing, week after week, year after year, and have it down to a science) for less than it takes to repair a broken grocery cart.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything; in fact, I don't even have to try, it just comes easy to me. But, nobody is going to be doing you any favors by not telling you the truth up front. And ultimately, the truth WILL catch up with you, so you might as well get it straight right from the start.

 

yup its just a straight drag car for learning the ins and outs of drag racing/building

So yes, to answer your question, fast and cheap. The block probably will need to be bored to make it fresh, but a 355 will be just slightly different( parts to match the larger size) right?

sorry, but thats why I said open to others who have done this before to offer there experience, please think less about the what to get and more about the how to get there(for right now).


Im getting some of this info from the AFR, guy got 520 off a zz4, by replacing just about everything on it.
In this sense wouldnt it be possible to use a stock block to build a roughly 450 by modifying the parts/using cheaper, to tell the truth Im only looking for about 350, but was looking for what would be required for a 450.

So, to actually be constructive sofakingdom, maybe youd like to help in explaining how chamber size relates to the overall flow of heads?

I guess Im starting to get a little more to the point now.

Ok Iron heads give higher compression(usually) but are heavier.
Pistons also affect compression....
Higher compression= more power output(?) but higher chance of knock.

Better air/fuel mixture=more horsepower/torque(point of tunnel rams
and other intake manifolds?)
more air/more fuel do the above but are affected by fuel pump and carb?
rods dont directly affect anything other than the actual working of the engine

crankshaft? not sure but I do know it affects the stroke of the motor and firing order?
cam- powerband? anything else?

rockers/valve springs and the like are essential to the air/fuel to get into the chambers
lifters control the rockers

distributor(how does this effect the engine, not really sure, my daily driver runs 4 coil packs and is mpfi....)

more displacement=more power and more stroke, more stroke= less lowend? the reason for stroker motors is to increase displacement while decreasing stroke, right?


ok, now maybe well get somewhere...

 

An engine operates as a whole. There is no this part makes the power or that part makes the power. It is the balance and matching of everything that makes the power.

Cylinder head material has nothing to do with compression ratio (for the most part). Compression ratio deals with the cc's of the combustion chamber. Iron versus aluminum comes into the case as aluminum absorbs some of the combustion heat (hence why the alum L98 heads were 58cc and the iron heads were 64cc). You can get away with maybe .5 a compression point with alum. versus iron.

Yes, higher compression makes more power, in a nutshell. But again, only when the engine is built properly and planned around it having that higher compression.

A/F ratio, build your engine, then worry about tuning it.

yes rods to effect the engine. I'll save the technicalities for someone willing to type it all up, but try a seach on rod/stroke ratio.

Crankshaft: really just rotating mass.

Rockers/springs all fits in with proper valve train planning.

Distributor...hard one here, distributes the spark from the coil to the 8 cylinders in the proper firing order.

Stroker moters make for more torque while keeping the bore size the same. More torque down low = more grunt. Generally a good thing.

As a generalization, "Fast, Cheap, Reliable, pick 2, it won't be the 3rd"

 

1. Chamber size DOES NOT relate to the flow. It relates to the compression. You can have heads with large chambers and poor flow, like old 70s smoggers; heads with small chambers and great flow; or any other combination. Ideally, you should design a motor for the characteristics it needs to have, for its particular application. That is, you would design a street motor one way, an alcohol dragster motor another, a supercharged motor yet another. There is no one universal "right" way to do it. You could use a moderate chamber volume and flat-top pistons to come up with moderate compression (street); a large chamber and a dish piston to get low compression (blower); a small chamber and a dome piston for very high compression (alcohol); and so on. Typical SBC chamber sizes are in the 60-70cc kind of range.

2. Port volume DOES relate to flow, although not in a "linear" fashion. That is, for a given mfr's heads, and of course ALL ELSE being equal as well, a 220 cc port will flow more than a 200 which will flow more than a 180. However, an as-cast 200 port with stock type valves, might flow less than a carefully ported 180 port with better valves. Machine work (!! there we go) makes a HUGE difference; you can improve the flow at some lifts by as much as 50%, and overall flow by around 5%, by simply back-cutting the valves, if everything else is machined (!!!) correctly. And, a "bigger" flow number, may or may not actually make the car go faster; "bigger" ports tend to have low velocity which causes poor fuel distribution at low flow rates, which reduces efficiency; and the slow flow in a too-large port will result in poor cylinder fill. Typical aftermarket SBC intake ports range from around 165cc to 230cc.

3. You choose the port volume to match the engine size, as much as anything. If you're building some little motor like a 305 or 350, you need small ports. I'm working on a 434 right now; it needs much bigger ports. The litle 350 would run REAL SOGGY until reaching very high RPM with the heads that the 434 needs; the 434 will be choked on the heads that work best on the 350. That's why there's such a variety of heads, is so that you can pick the right config for your usage.

3. Block needs bored = machine work. I guarantee, from teh time you drop your block off until the time it's ready to run, you'll have $500 BARE MINIMUM in the block ALL BY ITSELF. You're not doing yourself a favor by ignoring that in your budget.

4. The ZZ4 is a 350. Take the heads off, and take the cam out, and it's just a very ordinary, run-of-the-mill 350. Nothing special. You don't need to start from a ZZ4 to make big power. On the other hand, you could also do a WHOLE LOT WORSE than a ZZ4 short block. At least it's all new stuff, forged crank, PM rods, and somewhat decent pistons. Altogether better than some rebuilder's bargain-basement "if you find one advertised for less we'll match their price" 350.

5. There's no such thing as a 355. It's a 350. After the maintenance required to restore it to a non-worn condition (boring) it may happen to have 355 CID. It's still a 350.

6. Leave the firing order alone. There are no gains to be had there. Don't even think about it, it just is what it is.

7. It sounds like you're going bracket racing. I think most people will agree, that form of racing is about 40% driver, 25% rear suspension, 20% tires, and 15% EVERYTHING ELSE. In that type of racing, it doesn't matter how fast you go; all that matters, is you go exactly the same, within a certain range, EVERY TIME. If you're building a race car and you budget $xxx, and you spend your entire $xxx on the engine, YOU WILL GET BEAT. Take a look at the whole car, and what it takes to compete in whatever class you choose, BEFORE you do the budget thing. You might want to look at building some kind of a total nothing motor, and learnign how racing works with that, before biting off on something expensive. The lessons, OJT if you will, will come cheaper that way.

8. Displacement = piston area times stroke. Period. That's all it is. Take piston (bore) diameter, square it, divide by 4, (or halve it first and then square it.... same thing), multiply by pi (3.14159265359....); that's piston area. Multiply by the stroke.

9. 99.999% of the time, a "stroker" motor has a longer stroke, and therefore a larger displacement. Larger displacement = larger motor = more power.

That should get you started.

 

sounds like you've heard a lot of buzzwords, but not a lot about what they mean. I think you'd be best picking up a book by david vizard, and doing A LOT of searches on these boards, to get you started.

Asking the easy questions will make people think you don't know a lot about what you're doing (lets be realistic right, you are just starting here), so you should probably read some things to get you started first.

I think bracket racing isn't going to be a lot of fun for you. I mean, you can use all your creativity, and learn a lot, spend a ton, and build a motor, and the BEST you can hope for, is to be the same as everyone else there. I don't think that's a lot of fun personally. I'd rather build a street car, then be a lot faster then everyone else out there.

 

yea, thanks for your help and clearing some of the things up. I guess I jumped a little ahead of myself here.

I am doing work on he chassis though to make it more capable. A welder I know is going to do SFCs for me, since I need new struts Im thinking of lakewood 90/10's, and changing the gearing as a start(later on will do more....)[I understand the physics of suspension, whereas motor building if new to me]

Oh and i do realize that its still a 350, just i felt like saving time and saying 355 rather than 350 bored out to 355 cid(.03" over...)




Ok will mods please lock this.

 

Doesn't matter that it's been bored. That's automatically assumed. 99.999% of all motors at the race track, if they're not the original motors in the cars that they're in (and sometimes even if they are), have been bored.

It's OK to ask, sometimes that's the only way to find stuff out. It's also OK to dream big, and set your goals high. But it's REAL SMART to always be realistic, and avoid starry-eyed optimism.

I know alot of people that have enormous fun bracket racing, and you could easily be just such a person. But, it's A WHOLE LOT tougher than it looks, and it's EXPENSIVE, not just building the motor; like, you got a trailer yet? Some spare tires? I don't know of ANYONE that bracket races, and it makes them money instead of costing. There might be one or 2, the big winners somewhere; but for the vast majority of participants, it's ALOT of $$$$$, beyond intially building the engine, or even the car. Gas to get to the tracks, parts that break or wear out, and on and on... you gotta be committed. I also know alot of people who have got sick of it and turned to doing something else with their hard-earned cash.

Anyway, have fun, read all the posts you can on this board and some of the other ones (Chevelle, Mustang, LS1, Mopar, etc.); check out some of the racing forums themselves; and see what the real world is like for people who are out there doing it.