I'll just post one more crate because I know you were leaning away from them...eBay Motors: CHEVY 350-332 HP MIDNIGHT BLUE CRATE ENGINE GOOD STR (item 200037596743 end time Oct-26-06 08:55:06 PDT)

 

I saw that one, and although it is a good price. I think it would be better for me to build this engine, without getting a crate. It will give the experience I desperately need, and I would know the whole engine inside and out. Unless some freak accident occurs, im going to stick with what Im doing. I appreciate the help, but I'll keep doing what Im doing, and if I get another project, one that would be used as a performance street machine, I might take that offer and go with a crate.

 

Cool, and I think that's great. I work in fabrication, so when I get home after a 12 hour day, the last thing I want to do is try to troubleshoot an idle problem or a rattle in the engine bay.

If you want to do it yourself, kudos! Just enlist the help of someone that knows what they are doing for the build. Sounds like you're already getting a bargain on the machine work.

Good luck

 

Thanks, I just hope the quality of the machinist is good.

 

Ask around. See if you can get in touch with anyone that does buisness with him.

 

Jimmy, please realize that I was not making fun of you, as many MANY of us have been in your shoes before. As far as crate engines not having that lopey rumpy rump sound.....man are you dead wrong. I have a friend who purchased a ZZ4 shortblock and added his own heads and induction, and the sound was awesome. As far as the long tube headers.....been there done that....and will never do it again...instead i added two exhaust dumps to run open shorty headers for the track. Understand that no one here is laughing pointing fingers at you...just trying to help you save some premature hair loss lots of yelling and wasted money. I am sorry if I made you feel like less of a mechanic as it was not my intention.

 

This isn't intended as a put-down, as others have tried to express, but rather as information - Rebuilding a 305 because that's what you've got has got to be the worse possible reason for doing it. Talk to that machine shop, more than likely they've got a 350 shortblock sitting around that they'd sell to you for less than $200, and then you can start with the $235 they're quoting you. The rest will cost no more, and often less, than the 305 parts would cost you. You can do this while the 305 is still in the car, unless you decide to use the 305 heads to put on top of the 350 shortblock (not a bad idea, by the way).

Sounds reasonable. Boring and honing are the same operation, typically, these days. That's less than $30/hole, and includes the cam bearings to boot. Many shops include freeze plugs in that package as well, but if they don't, that's a small expense and something you can do yourself. Make sure the galley plugs installation is covered.

 

I replied to you PM smallblock, I think we have thing worked out. I guess they would have some roughness to it, but I doubt like what I wanted, I want a really rough idle, one like the older muscle car days, or better. The main reason Im going with the longtubes and dual exhaust all the way back, is sound, I realize its a lot extra time and effort, but to me it is worth it.

five7kid- I realize that a 305 is crap, thats why I got a 350 the otherday(I posted in this topic about it I guess you missed that post :P) I found out that it was cracked, and we took it back to the guy that we got it from, and he gave us another to try, got it apart tonight and monday my dad'll take it down to the machinist. Dad said they seemed to have good quality. They have a large selection of parts to buy as well, including blowers, cams, intake, etc.

Oh yeah freeze plugs were another thing that was included.

 

Oh while I'm at it. Is there any main difference between a say a 1979 350 than a 2003 350? As in durability, and strength? Besides the reverse water flow cooling, in some of the blocks.

Are the cranks any better in the older engines? The crank, and connecting rods are from a '73 350. Deciding whether to be safe and get just new rods, or both.

 

I've swapped many,,, many,,, many cams in my own cars with multiple engine combinations and swapped and tuned in even more for others. You can get exactly what you want to achieve with a $120 Energizer hydraulic flat-tappet cam and lifter kit.

Crane Energizer Cam and Lifter Kits: CRN-100082 - summitracing.com

In a 10:1 355 with a good dual exhaust system it'll give you the rat-a-tat-tat you're looking for at a decent idle speed (around 750rpm). Don't use an H-pipe or X-pipe on the duals to give it an even pronounced sound - you'll give up a few horses,, but the sound you're looking for will be there. The cam is a 282/282 - 226/226 - .470/.470 - 106 spread cam and should pull around 12" vacuum. There is 4-degrees built into the cams,,, at least they were, but you'll want to "retard" the cam so it will be installed straight up on a 106 intake center. Also set the preload to 1/4 turn. The cam will nose dive at the top end advanced 4 degrees like it comes and loaded at a full turn. Installing it on a 106 doesn't give up much off idle with this tight of a lobe spread and you can pick up 15 horses or so on the top. It'll be extremely responsive once you get it over 2500 rpm, but will pull decently off idle with moderate throttle.

Feel free to disregard the info and go forward with the solid cam with 244+ degrees at .050 tappet lift on a 108 spread,,, you'll get the sound you're after with that cam at 1200 - 1300 rpm idle. No offense meant,, but an inexperienced tuner will never get it running close enough to right that you could drive it around the show area without choking everyone out. Plus,, it'll jar your teeth loose putting it in drive with anything less than a 3000 stall,, and it'll be a down right turd until 3500 rpm and your heads aren't going to support enough airflow for it to really come on.

I was about to type more (whew),,, but did a quick search and found this outstanding article by David Vizard. Read it and read it again,, it should help you understand how you can rock things around to get what you're looking for. Like the 282 hydrualic Energizer with 70 degrees overlap,, although as you'll see after reading the article,,, it's the overlap AREA (not just the duration) that means so much to idle and power production.

Engine Camshaft Basics - Popular Hot Rodding Magazine

 

jimmy - an '03 block is setup for roller lifters. That is vasty (VASTLY) superior, especially standing in your shoes.
Also the block will be in better condition, since it'll be very new. Contrary to what the old hot rodders will tell you, they do make 'em like they used to. An '03 block will have better metallurgy and casting quality (less core shift, etc), then a '73 block.

You'll probably need to turn the crank. If you do, might as well get a new one. Turning a crank might cost you $100, and you still have a 30+ year old crank. Buying a new one costs ~$200, and it's brand spanking new, and of better quality (usually). Rods are the same scenario. ohio crankshaft is a good online source for these parts. For the high rpm screamer you've got planned, get the rotating assembly balanced (I imagine you already know this, I may have said it already in this very thread), but just making sure....

Yea $230 for that machine work is a darn good deal. I'd buy him beer for that price.

 

Well I meant the casting quality, and strength of the block in general. Would a '79 be better than a '73? Or relatively the same?

The machinist, recommended the Lunati 300 hydraulic with 246 @.050 and .515 lift on a 108LSA. He said that he had no complaints from anyone. It'll either be that or the Comp Cam, but I'm going to look into that overlap, and see if I cant come up with a better cam.

It'd be nice if some one could create a calculator that determines overlap based on Duration @.050, Lift, and Lobe Seperation, or something similar. Maybe they have one, I dont know.

 

Hey man, you sayin' my car stinks?
Actually that's something I didn't think about when we were talking about the bad manners of cams with a lot of overlap. I consider myself a pretty good tuner and well, I don't spend a lot of time with it idling in the garage when I'm working on it!!! Let's just say that a cam with a lot of overlap is going to put out a LOT of HC even with a perfect tune. The ragged exhaust sound at idle is actually the cylinders partially misfiring.
Of course, one man's obnoxious exhaust fumes are another man's sweet smell of half burned premium gas in the morning....
The main reason for this note is for future searchers.

 

LOL,, no way man,, and I know people addicted to the fumes of spent race gas and like um' rich.

Just to clarify, most inexperienced tuners turn the idle srew so high it uncovers the idle circuitry on the large lumpy low vacuum cams - taking away all ability to lean the mixture at idle. That is "the problem" in the vast majority of carbs I've tuned,, even on the ones with rather well matched cams to cid and compression ratio. You can tune in mismatched stuff,, it just takes more "tricks" and a little more experience than novice.

Jimmy,, the better engine simulations (like the $400 EA Pro) take into account the rate of rise on the cam and can get close on the overlap area with .050 duration and lobe lift. It also has options to load in lobe numbers from the Cam Doctor software,,, which will give you an accurate calculation. The lesser expensive $115 EA software doesn't have a selection for the cam's rate of rise (at least the last version I have doesn't), but it estimates the valve overlap area and gives you estimated vacuum as well. I don't know about the new Desktop Dyno,,, but the older version a friend brought by the shop for me to try out was decent at estimating peak HP and TQ but was way,,, way off on power estimates on the shorter cams at lower engine speeds,,, but it was a lot cheaper than the EA stuff and you could compare peak values to get an idea of the direction the change was moving you. Anyway,,, even if you know the precise overlap areas for different cams,,, unless you have a couple known personal references in your knowledge base, and know how much the differences affects the idle,,, about all you can do is say this one SHOULD idle better than the other,,, so you'll still have no idea of where you need to be. I can tell you,,, you can get that rat-a-tat sound you want off something the program estimates to pull 12" vacuum and still have power brakes for one or two good back to back hits. The 282 Energizer will pull that (depending on your idle speed and ignition advancement),,, the 300 Lunati might pull 10" of vacuum on your combination if you're lucky and drop about 50 lb/ft of torque at 2000 rpm and 40lb/ft at 2500 and MAYBE give 10 horses more past usable peak HP. You go with that 300 hydraulic,,, you might was well get ready to do leg presses on the brakes to get the car to stop (on back to back stops),, and forget about it if you're one of those that "ride" the brakes to stop the car - you'll have to change your driving habits while driving it if you are.

I've been told there are three types of people,,, stupid, smart, and brilliant. The stupid ones don't learn from their mistakes, the smart ones do, and the brilliant ones learn from the mistakes of others. It looks like you're going to be like I was (and still am to a degree - as I still have tendancies not to believe most people when it comes to engines - lol) and fall into the smart catagory - you gotta start that knowledge base somewhere,, plus with so many opinions,,, who can you believe??? I'm not being an **** here,, but at least if you go with your machinist's recommendation you'll have someone local to complain to and he/they might help you dial it in or hook you up with someone that can - I got most of my work through referals from a buddy's machine shop.

Good luck man,, and save that link to that Vizard cam article and come back to it every so often to read again. As you learn more,,, the more that article will make sense to you.

 

Let's put it this way. I have a spare 305 in my garage, will I rebuild it for sure ? If all it takes is some minor honing and new piston rings, then yes. But if I would have to bore it out and get new pistons, hell no. Everywhere I look 350 i.e. standard 4 inch bore pistons can be found dirt cheap, 305 pistons are never listed.

 

Vorgath, I'll just requote myself.
Alright thanks for the info BadSS but I will say, that Crane Energizer Cam does seem like a good deal, I have a little while to think about what cam Im going to choose... and will do.

 

So I was reading that article again, and came across something pretty interesting. When both valves are open, the exhaust is drawn into the cylinder, and then up into the intake, and then into another cylinder when its at TDC. Is told of a way to correct this, and it is to have a dual plane intake manifold. I thought about this and figured out that it would smooth the idle, add vacuum, and increase low rpm torque. How much exactly would the idle smooth out, how much more vacuum, and how much more torque would I get?

 

Single plane intakes are usually for high rpm racing, a dual plane will work (depending on what kind it is) anywhere from idle to 5500 rpm or so while some work from say 1500 to 5500 rpm.

I just know that engines setup for high rpm driving, usually won't idle real nice, heck listen to old Ferrari engines, had real crappy idle, sounds like a Harley *L* good but .. well

 

It's not how much better the idle/low speed operation will be with a dual plane. The charachteristics we're describing for the cams are with a dual plane. It's more like: with a single plane they will be much worse. The rpm range listed for the PERFORMER RPM manifold is (1500-6500 rpm). In my opinion, cams above
270 degrees duration will need to spin above 6000 rpm to "out-do" smaller cams because they aren't going to make much power down low. This is even more important when you add a lower LSA and a lot of overlap.
Here's a guideline: Single-plane=racing, Dual-plane=street/strip.
It's true that 300 degree cams will make more power with a single plane but the powerband won't start until 3000-3500 rpm. Even with 4.11 gears this is not something that you can drive in town.

 

Alright thats what I was wondering.

Hmm.. I looked at the overlaps and compared them between the cams. Some cams used different lift figures for their advertised duration(.007, .015, and .020), so I figured I could use the durations @ .050 to find out the overlap @ .050 to accurately compare the cams. Heres what I came up with.

I used a formula that I found.
You add the intake and exhaust duration(figured it'd work with @.050 too?)
Then you divide that by 4.
Subtract the LSA.
And Multiply by 2.

The site showed two examples of this working. They showed one formula when you add the intake opening and exhaust closing to get the overlap. And then they showed this one, and the result was the same. So is the overlap an accurate calculation, because I dont think the advertised overlap is at all accurate.

One more question, If the cam I get is on a 108 LSA, and the intake centrline is 104*, what would happen if I retarded the cam 4* to put the intake centerline on 108*? Would this change the lopey-ness any, give more horsepower and torque? or should I leave this area alone.

 

Heres something else to think about. I have heard Chevy 350s are fairly bad at cooling, because of the way the water circulation works. The water goes in through the water pump, and into the block, from there it goes to the water neck on the intake, but the water doesn't flow to the back 4 cylinders(2 on each side) so those cylinders stay hot while the front 4(2 on each side) are cool. The machinist told of a way that you could either drill a hole in the (intake or the heads) Im not sure which he said, and the route that water to the water neck, to make the circulation complete, therefore cooling the engine completely(which would allow for higher compression ratio which out detonation?)

I couldn't find any articles or other talk about this topic, so I thought I'd share on here.

 

Yea, i've never heard any of that cooling system stuff before - which leads me to believe it's complete BS. Maybe someone else can chime in.

Advancing the cam more makes it come online earlier (more low end torque, and retarding it, makes it come on later. Most cams, have 4* advance built in (as you've noticed there). That helps people get more low end, when they go ahead and buy a cam that's far too large for what they're doing... *cough*...

Get a 2 piece timing cover, then you can advance/retard somewhat quickly, and you can find out for yourself what the motor likes best.

That crane cam at the bottom of your list kinda sticks out like a sore thumb. Smaller duration @ .050", small overlap at .050" (matches up), but large overall duration... Sounds like SUPER LAME ramp rates..? oh, it's a hydraulic and the rest are solids right? That might be it.

 

The cooling idea seems pretty true to me, although I have no idea which path the water takes to get to the water neck and back into the radiator. The water would seem to take the easiest way to get to where it wants to go, so it would go straight to the water neck, instead of cooling the entire engine. Not saying that the back 4 cylinders dont get cooled off at all, but they dont seem to get cooled as much as they could/should be. Once the engine is full of water, and the water starts to circulater, the water in the back of the engine will stay there, and keep getting hotter, while the cool water will go the shortest route, which is straight to the water neck. I dont know if this makes and sense, or how much of it is true, because I'm just using my judgement, based on the machinists idea.

I found this, I think this might be what he meant, not sure.
And this would have no effect on engine with reverse water flow, such as the LT1(, and LS1?)

The Lunati, and Crane cams are both hydraulics. The Isky and Comp are solids. Would a hydraulic have any different lope than a solid of the same specs would have, besides the clicky noise of the valve lash?

The Lunati specs are 246*@.050, 300*adv, .515" lift, on 108LSA. hyd.
The Comp specs are 248*@.050, 294*adv, .525" lift, on 110LSA. solid.
The Isky specs are 247*@.050, 282*adv, .507" lift, on 108LSA. solid
The Crane specs are 226*@.050, 282*adv, .470" lift, on 106LSA. hyd.

Like I said though, it's hard to compare, duration and overlap measured at different lift. The crance cam is the one BadSS recommended a few posts up.

The Crane being the cheapest, then the Isky, Lunati, and Comp following.

 

Many people talk about that same cooling problem, however there are a lot of people running super high comp. without that mod. If you plan on running on pump gas, as you know, you'll have detonation if you run much more than 10:1. The LT1 runs @ 10.5:1 on pump gas because of the reverse cooling(correct me if I'm wrong). I read in a mag that someone was making a reverse cooling kit for older small blocks. Basically it was the pump and some parts for the pully system. If I can find the article I'll get back...

 

It's not complete but close. Some cylinders are always going to run a little cooler or warmer than others. But not by much. I think it's just as much for efficiency (mpg) as a performance reason. Also to allow the use of aluminum blocks & heads. They are more prone to "hot-spots" than good ol' cast iron. Remember the steam holes added to the 400 block? All you have to do is witness the sheer volume flowing thru a SBC block at 3600 rpm. All of the coolant in the engine is run thru the radiator every 2 seconds! Unless there is a place for a "pocket" to hide, it will be swept away in this river of flow. Attention of this level of temperature management is probably necessary for A: People pushing the small block to levels above 500hp for long periods of time. and B: Engineers developing a new small block for maximum performance AND gas mileage.
For the rest of us, it borders on spending money to fix a problem that doesn't exist and hasn't existed for 30+ years.

 

I found out what he was talking about. He sells some special intake manifolds that have a rear water passage, with 2 holes that you connect some braided hose and connect to the 2 front holes, and provides better circulation. Much like the single plane manifolds that edelbrock and holley sell, but these are dual plane. You can get them satin or polished, and even a crosswind tunnel intake that cools the air/fuel mixture. Prices range from $150-203.

That with aluminum heads should fix that detonation problem. It's worth it to have a little cooler engine for about the same price. All the more, the better.

Now I can make a list of parts.
Isky247 cam, 1.5:1 roller rockers, new pushrods and lifters, original rods and crank(there heavy duty enough), new oil pan, aluminum Dart heads 64cc 2.05/1.60, CrossWind Dual Plane intake, flat top .030 over pistons, 10.3-5:1 CR, 650-700 Double Pumper. Thats all I have for now... I'll prolly think of more though.

 

hmmm additional cooling in just the intake manifold ? I know I've seen something about it, heads however's a different story.

Best way to go would be methanol/water intake charge cooling system

Not only will you cool it down, reduce risk for detonation, but you will actually make more power, since it'll act as steam, and you'll be keeping your combustion chambers much cleaner, kinda like running a steam engine/steam cleaner add on all the time

That's the basics of it, now installing it is one thing, adjusting it correctly, costs a little bit

 

Thats a little different than what Im talking about but the reason the intake works, is because the heads can go left or right, and have that water pocket in it to accomodate the water neck on both side. But the intake acts as a blocking point and the water in the back of the motor has no where to circulate to.

 

That isn't how the coolant flow goes on a SBC.
The coolant enters the block, then circulates upward through the heads through numerous holes in the deck of the block, after that it flows to the front of the heads, and after that through the stat, then back to the top of the radiator. At no time is there stagnant water in the cooling jacket of the heads while the engine is running, even if the stat is closed. There is a bypass channel that allows the pump to keep the water moving even when the stat is closed.

You can test it yourself with a disassembled block and a garden hose, just squirt the hose in where the pump mounts and see where the water comes out. Of course you'd have to put some headbolts in the holes or water will come out there too.

The point is that any hole on the block deck that isn't a bolt hole is a coolant hole, and water circulates up from there.

 

Not exactly what my point was, but I'm not sure of the direct path the water takes, but from what I've heard, this intake the water gets circulated throught the back of the intake as well as the rest of the motor, cooling it better. Some water would go through the intake instead of back to the front of the heads, and from the back of the intake through hose to the front intake water passage to the water neck. If I had some graphs of how the water is circulated in the engine, I could better explain what I meant.

 

hmm, sounds like a good principle, simple enough... Then why didn't GM do this in the first place? In fact, they went through the trouble of casting a block into the intake manifold ? Makes me think they did it on purpose.

I'd look into better rods. You're going to use ARP rod bolts (that's a statement, not a question), so you'll need to resize your rods. That woulda cost me $180 total ($90 for bolts, $90 to resize), so I just paid $200 for new rods complete with bolts. Hard to argue that. The rods are the first weak point of a high revving SBC from what i've heard.

 

Yeah, thats exactly what I was wondering, why didnt they? Makes no sense.

The machinist looked at the rods, he said there are two types. They are marked, some have a certain letter, that determines whether they're the thicker ones.. I may still invest on some rods though. New bolts are a definate must though...

 

It's hard to justify re-sizing stock rods, when it's a $20 difference to get brand spanking new ones. At least for me it was.
I beams are usually less strong
H beams are stronger
That's what he was talking about? Dig through summit, or ohio crankshaft and see what's available, you can always run your ideas by your machinist and see what he thinks.