hello, i am a dutch owner of a 87 GTA which crashed under bad weather conditions.
it was towed to a repair shop and they claim they cannot deal with the (sub-)frame as I hit a steel protective fence frontally; the frame is 'knicked' as we say in dutch. The engine is now sort of resting on a 'curve', due to the frontal impact on the frame, the shop claims. I have not been able to inspect the car yet as I have worked all week and the shop is closed in weekends.
of course the hood and fender etc are gone yet this is not the main issue, the main issue is they claim it is not safe to reshape the frame as there could then remain or even originate cracks in the frame. as it is a 87 frame and supposedly rusty. So they won't do a job on the frame as they claom they cannot guarantuee safe driving after this job being done.
I wonder if anyone here has any experience with the redirecting of a 87 GTA (sub-)frame, and safety issues involved after reshaping the (sub-)frame to its original direction/shape.
I have only a general idea about the issues involved here, I am absolutely not in the position to judge this issue by myself.
Thanks for getting back to a now sad yet living dutch GTA owner (I left the scene of 2 crashes in my life without a scratch & no one else hurt either) with your opiniated replies...

 

First, Welcome to TGO.

Sad note about your GTA and the situation you're in. Was it well insured?
IMO, Sometimes it's money and time well spent to settle up, cut your losses and walk away. It's up to you to determine if the car is truely worth the time and money it'll take to rescue it.

Good luck with your decision.

 

Hello, and welcome to TGO. As another GTA owner, I'm very sorry to hear about your accident, & I hope that it works out the best way possible for you.

In all honesty, it's a bit difficult to give you the 'correct' answer without a picture of the car (& without knowing how things are handled there), but I can give you something of an idea of how things are sometimes done here, & perhaps it will help.

Just to be sure that we're talking about the same thing, I will describe how I understood what you wrote. It sounds as though the crash impacted the car such that the front subframe rails were bent - meaning that if the car's long axis was facing true north, the long axis of the engine block would be "turned" or offset from true north by several degrees. Is that basically correct?

If so, then depending on your insurance underwriter (and parts availability there), it may be possible to resurrect your car - but this largely depends on the extent of the damage. Here in the US, it's not uncommon to have cars straightened on frame machines. As you can imagine, the results sometimes vary, depending on the skill of the operator, & whether or not they're trying to move as many cars as possible through the shop to make more money...

Another option may be to remove the front subframe & replace it with one from a car that hasn't been wrecked. Sometimes they can be removed with bolts, but sometimes they're welded in. And of course, this option is more labor-intensive, as it's necessary to remove a good portion of the drivetrain to accomplish this.

It sounds as though the body shop has been thinking of straightening the car, as per my first option (which is a perfectly valid one). Of course, much of Holland is fairly close to the ocean & the salt air, so if the front subframe is showing signs of corrosion, then the repair shop could very well be correct. Even adding bracing or gussets wouldn't be a sure fix...

I wish I could give you the "perfect" answer based on your situation, but hopefully this will give you at least a couple more parts of the puzzle.

In any event, I'm glad you walked away OK, & hope that it works out for the best for you. Good luck.

 

thanks, that gives me a somewhat better idea. A fellow GTA owner here in Holland refers to a socalled K-member that is bolted on the main frame? the part of the frame over width/in front, that part should be removed, and another 1 welded back in?
maybe some1 has a link for me to a sort of blueprint-like depiction of the GTA, giving a transparent view and then I could get a better idea of how the carrying parts are built/construed? again, thanks..

 

Welcome to TGO and sorry to hear about your accident. It is my understanding from reading the various boards here that both the Camaro and Firebird had the same frame parts from 1982 to 1992. So I have a 1982 Factory Assembly Manual for the Camaro. I have scanned several pages and will attach them to this and the next post.

In these scans the item refered to as the CROSSMEMBER ASM is what your friend refers to as the K member. The left attachment is a view of the K member and the bolts used to attach it to the body. The center attachment shows some support brackets between the K member and the body. The right attachment shows how the Lower Control Arm, or A Arm is attached to the K member.

More to come in the next post.

Dave

 

Ok

There appears to be a problem with the first attachment in my previous post. The thumbnail image does not appear. However, if you click on the file name you will be able to view the image.

The left attachment below shows the attachment of the knuckle and hub to the cross member. The hub is the disk brake rotor.. The center attachment is a view showing the k member and the front brake lines. It also is a good view of the the parts in the previous post in one scan. The final attachment show the motor mount to the K member.

These may not be the transparent image you requested, but they should give you a good idea of how the K member is attached, and the other parts that are attached to it. You should note that these scans do not give a good view of how the springs and front struts are attached. You might want ot look in the Suspension / Chassis board and search for discussions on replacing the front spring and or sturts.....

Since you are having trouble getting to see your car you might want to print out the images and see if your friend will put his car up on jack stands. Then you can both crawl under and comapre the images with his car.

Dave

 

OK, CrossFire, thanks for taking the trouble, you guys are helpful.. a dutch 1st 2nd & 3rdgen salesman & enthousiast suggested to me not to redirect the frame yet take it out completely and have it replaced by a complete frame of an intact & part-stripped available car. I figure this would be virtually impossible, as I would expect the core frame to be beams-in-one-piece from rear to front. How could one take the front of the bent beams out and replace that section by welding (I suppose there wouldnt be any other option)? I may be simple-minded yet my basic knowledge of natural science tells me that would be a weakening of the core frame that would not be able to deal with (strong) G-force, right? Correct me if I m wrong...
I would expect this so-called K-member to be a sort of subframe bolted on the core frame, most likely the beams. Is this correct? My main concern, with what I only heard over the phone, is the beams that were bent through the frontal collision, and redirecting them supposedly weakening the capacity to deal with engine weight & G-force. I figure any bolt-on part of the frame should never be a main concern.
i realize that without pics of the damage involved this is a hampered discussion yet I figure that you folks knowing the GTA by heart, as a matter of speech, are capable of envisualizing the options, or lack of them..tx..

 

OK, V8rumble...reading your posting I think it basically implies two valid and workable repair options 1. redirecting the frame, 2. replacing the front part with another frame (not clear if this can be done by bolting or indeed would have to be done by welding), more labour-intensive as it implies taking the drive-train out?
From what I have heard up till now from the repair shop, the 2nd option would be preferable...

 

OK, I've just gone out & taken a few pictures of the area we're talking about so that it'll be easier to understand.

First off, your understanding of the car's structure is a bit off - the "beams-in-one-piece from rear to front" structure is what we call a "full-frame" car. Our cars are not built like that, instead the primary body of the car is simply pressed from sheet metal into the correct shape. (This is why so many people recommend subframe connectors - SFCs - as this replicates the full-frame structure.) The first picture I've included is a view from the front of my car to the rear, showing the lack of actual frame rails.

Of course the engine needs to be supported by something, and that 'something' is the front subframe - it's basically a pair of rails (for lack of a better term) that are joined together at the front, & bolted to the main body assembly.

The other two pictures I've included are pictures of where & how the front subframe is attached to the car. You'll note that one of the pictures has a question mark by the arrow - that is because I think (but am not 100% sure) that this bolt is one of the bolts that attaches the front subframe to the car.

Yes, what he is suggesting is to remove the entire front of the car, unbolt the front subframe "rails", & bolt on different rails from an undamaged car, & then re-install everything. The other option (as we've mentioned) is to put the car on a frame machine, & try to straighten (or "redirect") the car back into the correct position.

Good luck, I hope this helps.

 

OK, thanks, again helpful...yep, I am a european offbeat rocker OK get the picture now, in all respects.. how many labour hours would, by estimation, be involved to take the old frame/"rails" out - after disassembling/removing drivetrain, I guess - rebolting the ' new' one, then reassembling? does it involve taking inner/outer wings out or could that be dealt with separately. My main concern is to get the car in drivable condition, move it from the shop & then do the wings/fender etc myself, as I gather this is a bolt-on job as well? I guess that with the installation of the " rails", the mounting/bolting of that so-called ' K-member' is done at the same time?
how's for parts availability for the GTA in the US? I might consider to take one shipment and bring wings, fender etc over from the US, the $ goin' down might make that profitable, and parts are not easy to get in Holland, that's for sure..

 

The front crossmember (K-member, perpendicular to the length of the car) holds the engine and is bolted to the front subframe rails. The subframe rails (parallel with the length of the car) however are not bolted to the body of the car, they are a part of the car, "welded" on. You can examine their point of attachment to the rest of the car by looking on either side of the transmission under the car. To replace this you must cut out the existing front subframe rails (or "horns") and weld in a straight subframe from another car. Parts to do this are cheap and readily available in the US, however they are large and getting them overseas may not be cheap, but there may be no choice.

Getting cars straightened on frame racks is common and generally accepted here, however it indeed helps to know the condition that your car is in. Maybe some pictures would help?

Either way it's important to know that replacing the K-member is a bolt in deal, but replacing the front subframe is not and requires fabrication skills.

If you get the frame straightened I would install subframe connectors, a wonder bar, and a strut tower brace if you don't already have them.

Good luck!

 

OK, Darkshot, yet now I think I have contradictory info: a. the "rails" or " horns" (as you name them) are part of a complete bolt-on front subframe construction, b. they have to be cut out and a straight subframe has to be welded in.
I would like to know which of those is the valid option What about estimated labour hours? Whichever is the correct info on replacing the rails/subframe parts, the drivetrain will have to be taken out and reinstalled anyways, right?
OK, the impact has been serious. Harmonica-like compression, I am sure the inner and outer fenders will have to be replaced, at the very minimum. Is it feasible to rebuild those 'softer' parts of the car after the core work on the frame and the drivetrain reinstallment has been done? Or does it take more than the subframe replacement discussed here up till now (if the in/outer fenders are bolt-on, the bolt positions on the frame need t be correct for the fenders to be bolted on), is there other parts needing straightening out after a frontal impact?
the very front will need to be replaced, I think there is some sort of a frame to interconnect LH and RH parts, say a bridge-like part.. As you realize, I do not have a mental blueprint of the car, it only recently came into my possession.
Just in front of the radiator. Does that need to be welded in?

 

If anybody has any pictures of the front end of a stripped thirdgen unibody that they could post, that would be just what he needs to see.

These are all taken by me, of my own car. The first two pictures are of the upper fender support. This is what the fender and hood bolts to. It is attached to the car and cannot be unbolted, as you can see.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4708/p1020037gj5.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/32/p1020038ek4.jpg

These are from under the car. This is where the lower subframe rails, horns, whatever you want to call them attach to the rest of the car. No bolts.

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/4254/p1010002pr7.jpg

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7299/p1010005wm2.jpg

You're basically looking at having to chop off the front of your car and weld on the front of another car.

 

that's fine, Darkshot, again thanks. Getting a clearer picture of what is basically needed to rebuild. What you named " horns" are those rails up there, they are indeed welded, I can see that. The lower support section not 100% clear for me. I would expect some lower support section in which the K-member is bolted to support the engine/drivetrain.
There is some kind of an upper crossbar in the front connecting the 2 "rails" and it looks like that bar is welded (area with your green marker) as well...

 

Yes, you can clearly see the two upper portions in my pictures that are welded to the car. However more difficult to see are the lower supports. The K-member bolts to these lower supports. My last two pictures show where the lower supports attach to the rest of the car. I'm not exactly sure how they are connected, there appears to be rivets or some form of welding but they are certainly not bolted. These lower supports also tie into the bottom of the frontal radiator support section.