So on the highway today I found out my slight oil pan leak somehow turned massive. Oops.

Anyway, I got a slight knock when I was on the gas pedal, but not if I was coasting. It happened for about 1 second before I freaked right out, shut off the car and coasted to a stop and popped the hood. Found a slight drip of oil on the bottom of the dipstick

So I got it towed home.

I don't suppose this is the type of thing where I can dump in some oil and be good to go eh? No dice?

So I figured i'd try and get a hold of an engine crane, since i've got a buddy staying here for another day, and can get some help turning wrenches. Assuming I can get it out of the car tommorow and up on the stand, any guesses as to what i'd find - or more important, ***how*** I can decide what needs to be replaced?

I know:

oil pan
1 piece rubber gasket.
main and rod bearings

Perhaps:
turn crank?
main bearing caps?

I'm not sure what kind of severity i'm looking at, or how I'll know when I look at it. Any help is appreciated.

 

i would fix the leak put some oil in and try it out before pulling the engine.

 

I agree with gargoyle725. It wont take that long to fix the leak and put oil into it. I am curios did you let the car sit for a little bit before you checked how much oil was on the dipstick so the oil can drain back into the pan?

 

Yea, I just ran out and got a 1 piece rubber gasket. I've jacked up the motor a bit, and removed the starter and unbolted the exhaust and i'm trying to feed that thing in. It's hard to get it under the oil pick up.
Hopefully that'll solve it. I got a KNOCK, which freaked me right out, so I instantly pulled over, popped the hood and checked the dipstick. Just read 1/2" on the bottom of the stick sorta thing, wayyy below add. I drained the oil here though, and I got a fair bit, 2L or so, with the filter call it 2.5-3, so not catastrophically bad.

 

thats not too bad, unfortuanetly ive ran them alot lower and got away with it
id fill the oil and check it out

 

I had an old, worn out 305 in a 77 Camaro years ago that went through about 1-2 quarts of oil a week. There was a few times I wasn't right on top of keeping an eye on the oil level, and only realized it was out of oil when it started knocking. It wouldn't even register on the dipstick whenever this happened. I drove it about 1/2 mile once before I was able to get to a gas station and buy some oil, and it still came out ok. I got away with this about 3 or 4 times before that motor finally bit the dust. When it did, I actually considered it a "mercy killing". Lol. I was on it pretty hard with hardly any oil again when it finally spun a rod bearing. Since you shut yours down immediately, and you were still able to see some oil on the dipstick, your motor's probably fine.

 

Yea, I drained 2.5L out of it, I found out when I poured it back into a gallon jug.
So I just drove it, i'm going outside to check if the leak is gone in a few minutes here. It didn't knock, oil pressure is good. But I had a light tick when running before, that would quiet down as the RPM's went up. I was guessing exhaust leak. As I was fixing the oil leak, I found many header bolts loose, so I snugged them up, I also found my collector gaskets were burned, so I bought 2 new pairs and doubled 'em up. I also welded my O2 bung, which had the exhaust putty on it to prevent it from leaking (the putty was chipping off).
I don't think this is exhaust though - the car now has a bit of a shake under moderate acceleration as well. I'm thinking it's misfiring, due to a wiped cam lobe, or a backed off rocker stud. I have non collared threaded rocker studs, and I used sealant on the studs, last time I had the valve covers off a few studs had backed out of the heads. So i'm hoping it's just that, or rocker stud nuts coming loose, and not a wiped cam. I'll pop off the covers in a few here and check.

 

did you use parts store cheapie lifters? i did and they always ticked at idle. i had the same cam as you(xe268 right?).

 

Damn, I never even thought of getting lifters from a parts store, I guess they woulda been cheaper?
No, I used Crane ones.
Yep, compxe268.

I tightened up the front drivers side intake rocker (#2?), it was LOOSE. That stopped the ticking. I never removed the passenger side valve cover 'cuz it started to hail, but it isn't ticking at all. It still seems to run a little funny though. I'm going to have to open it up and let it stretch its legs and find out.

 

If it were a rod knock, you would hear what sounds like someone rattling a coffee can full of marbles.

Hope everything continues to work out and it was just a loose rocker.

 

Just another suggestion for ya. On your rocker studs, you oughta unscrew them and use some of the red, permanent Loctite on them, and cinch them back down nice and tight. They should never back off or loosen up again using the red Loctite. You probably already know that you can use two nuts tightened up against each other to screw the stud in nice and tight. Anyways, just a little suggestion. If it were my motor, it'd set my mind at ease knowing the studs aren't gonna come loose whenever they feel like it.

 

Loose because it backed off, or loose because you wiped out the lobe running it without oil?

 

I'm thinking it was because it backed off slowly. The sealant towards the boss looked undisturbed, so I think the stud itself stayed put. The car has been ticking for a while, and I thought it was an exhaust leak, so I didn't bother trying to fix it . It looked like all the passenger side rockers were moving the same distance, so I don't think I wiped out a lobe there.
The car does still run a little funny. I'm going to start it up and get it warmed up tomorrow, then pop off the PS valve cover and see what's going on there.

The #2 plug looked like it was running fairly rich, and of course theres oil on the threads. Not quite as bad as the plug from the cylinder that had the valves not moving at all, on my previous build of this engine.

I'm going to check all the plugs tommorow as well. See if any show signs of no combustion.

Then i'm going to spritz some water down the carb with it running and try to clean out the chambers, see if I can get it running right again.

 

The taping you heard when it was low was just your lifters taping. Fix your exaust leaks b4 you start looking at other things. Did you blow the header gaskets, if so how long did you run it like that?

 

No, I heard a distinct KNOCK when I was out on the highway. The car had a light tick for a while.
I didn't think I had any exhaust leaks. The header gaskets seem fine, just a few bolts had backed out a bit. I'm going to check my O2 sensor area to see if I can feel the telltale puffs of air.

It started snowing so i'm waiting for it to warm up again here before I get back to work.

 

Had to go in to a job interview, figured i'd drive it. Drove weird. Starting ticking, got worse and worse, and still drives WEIRD.
Pulled over to check the oil, added some.

Got home, had lunch, pulled the other side (PS) valve cover. Cylinder 5 had BOTH rockers off the valves. One had half a bent pushrod stuck there, the other had the pushrod binded in the slot. I pulled the intake manifold off so I could see it.

I had magnets in the back where the drainbacks are, they have a MINISCULE amount of metal on them. It seems more like the moly break in paste, I cant even feel it on my fingers when I rub them together.

The one pushrod that binded, I had to cut it with a zip disc to remove it. Rockers seem good. I pulled both tappets on that cylinder and they are pristine (MY FIRST BIT OF LUCK EVER).

No store in town has pushrods (stock parts store) so i'm going to MOPAC (perf shop) to pick up a set. haha,
Them; "I have 1 piece Chrome-moly ones for $114"...

Me; "Uhh, you have anything more entry level?"

Them; "Manley ones are $2 per, Crane $84, pro-comp, $24, Comp-cams $34. I'd recommend the comp.

(I'm thinking i'd rather replace them all than just buy 2, although its temping).
I'm now going to ride the loser cruiser over there and grab the comp set, and some intake manifold gaskets. Wish me luck.

 

Ok, so that ran ok for about 1 day. Now i'm back to a ticking, and a very obvious sign of 1-2 cylinders not firing right (running rough).
I'm going to pull off the valve covers tommorow AM, but I could use some insight here. I imagine I might find two more broken pushrods, or maybe just some noisy lifters. I'm hoping I didn't wipe the cam (again).

Can anyone think of a reason for this ?!? I'll post up my findings tomorrow morning, but I'm hoping to get some help on this eh?

 

Ok, PS 2nd from the back, (I guess this is cylinder 6 then?). Same as last time, both rockers were off, one pushrod is awol, the other is binded in the slot.

I don't want to just keep replacing pushrods here, what gives?

 

Hmm. There's no chance they could be a little too long, is there?

 

Geometry problem? Part incompatibility? Dead cam lobe?

 

Well, I bought SBC flat tappet pushrods, crane ones. So I'm pretty sure they're right. The other cylinders seem to be fine.
When I first replaced the pushrods I checked the lifters, the bottoms were pristine, so i'm assuming (based on my past experience) if the cam is toast then the lifter would be mushroomed.

Geometry, i'm guessing so, but what? Everything is the same as it was before... Maybe I over-revved it and that caused the first pushrod to break, then that also bent those two rockers? I'll pull the rockers and inspect them more closely, but when I replaced the pushrods they seemed fine...

I set the lash using EOIC, so I definately saw those lifters moving up in order to set the lash, in fact I saw all 16 lifters moving, so i'm hoping to leave out dead cam lobe for now.

I think I might try fishing out that broken pushrod, so that I can drive the car on 7 cylinders. I need to get to MOPAC and to work...

 

So i've got a set of pushrods and intake gaskets. I'm not made of money though, I don't want to keep buying intake gaskets.

What would YOU do next then? I figured i'd move these rockers over a cylinder, and then see if the pushrods in #6, or #4 are breaking. If #4, then I know it was the rockers, if it's #6 then it's the slots in the heads. Or something.
It's weird though, nothing changed except for running it low on oil, and fixing the oil pan gaskets. I'm trying to think if I disturbed anything else, but I didn't... I fixed a possible exhaust leak, but that shouldn'tve affected valve train.

A lifter looked like it was plugged up, but I think that was because I used a zip disc to cut off the pushrod. I wiped it up and it seemed fine. Like I said, the bottom of the #6 lifters looked good. I'm going to check them again this time, but I assume i'll see it looking good. The rockers look fine, and MOPAC didn't sell them individually. A set of 1.5 ratio proform stamped roller tips were $70, but I didn't want to buy them unless I was dead sure I needed them.

Where do I go from here?!?

 

Is the bent pushrod/damaged rocker problem only taking place on one cylinder?
I don't think you ran it low enough of oil to damage anything if you drained 2.5 liters of oil out of it. Instead I think the pushrod/rocker problem caused the knock. That's the good news.
Now for the "other" news. (I never have bad news)
I do know what causes bent pushrods/damaged rockers on just one cylinder.
If you feel brave, pull all the rockers off of that head. Lay a machine rule (straight edge) on the ends of the valves.
See if one or both of the valves of the problem cylinder are taller or shorter than the others.

 

are you using self-aligning rockers or guideplates sonix?

 

No SA or guideplates, just the slots in the heads.
Supervisor, upon some searches I've heard it could be springs binding. The machinist who prepped my heads told me it'd be fine for .530" lift, based on my voodoo cam and 1.6 rockers. I wiped that cam out (hmmm), and now am breaking pushrods.

I'm going to go out and inspect the valves now. Are you thinking a taller valve or a piston hit it?

I'll post back up in a few minutes here.

 

ok, #6 is the bad cylinder. I removed the rockers from #4 as well. This is passenger side, middle two (just making sure i've got the #ering right).

The straight edge shows the tops of the valves to be the same. The exhaust valves stick out of the locks a bit more than the intakes. I'm guessing that the machinist used offset locks and shimmed the valves higher. I paid for the cylinder head service, which included "balancing" the springs, ie making sure the pressures are quite close across the board, and making sure I had clearance for .531" or whatever lift I had.

So the exhaust on #6, the intake pushrod was already broken, the exhaust one was bent, and the rocker was off to the side. The rocker was so far tilted that I had to cut the pushrod so I could swivel the rocker so I could get a socket on the nut.
The hardened pushrod on the exhaust side wallowed out the pushrod slot a bit. I'm not sure if this would cause it to continue to go out of alignment in the future. I'm still at a loss as to what caused this in the beginning. Maybe when I elongated the pushrod slots, I wallowed this one out a bit to the side, and it just continued to wear itself out to the side until it failed?
Any ideas?

EDIT: I grabbed my fork style valve spring compressor, and tried moving the valves, just to see if anything was strange. 3 were as expected, the #6 exhaust however, as I pushed it down, the keepers started to come loose. As if the valve was hitting something? Perhaps the engine is just as TDC firing for #6 right now and it's hitting the piston? I was thinking I'd use my magnet and take the keepers so I could inspect the valve spring, but i'm a little worried that i'll drop the valve all the way down into the cylinder and be totally SOL. I'll see if I have some rope I can fill that cylinder with.

EDIT#2: Pulled #6 spring. All looks well, positive seal looks fine, retainer doesn't look damaged at all. Damper seems to be a tight fit to the spring, that normal? :shrug:, all seems ok though.

 

have you pulled the lifter yet? and if so how does the lobe look?

 

No, I haven't pulled the intake yet. I'm kinda hoping I don't have to...
The lifter bottom looked fine a few days ago, I don't think I could have done much damage that quickly, and since it broke the pushrods once already, and the lifter was ok.

 

this sounding like a geometry thing more and more, how long has this motor ran?

maybe you should get one of these



http://store.summitracing.com/partde...9&autoview=sku

 

That is what I was expecting.
The head on that side will have to come off. The reason will be self evident.

 

im not sure about that, could be hiting the piston, how far did you have to push down before you the keeper were coming loose?

 

Well that's the thing, I filled cyl#6 with rope, and removed the valve spring, and it looks ok.
You thinking I popped the head off a valve? Uh oh, I did re-use the exhaust valves from the 305, and hand back cut them myself, I may have ground into the stem a bit too rigorously...
Hit me with the punch line here, I want to know what to expect when I tear this open.

Since the canuck dollar is so good right now, I might order the head gaskets off summit. A whole SBC gasket kit is only $30USD, vs the $50 or so for head gaskets locally. And if i'm only replacing one side, I better be damn sure it matches, since I got a summit gasket kit last time, i'd better get the same again.
I might get an adjustable pushrod as well to measure geometry. How does that tool work that you listed Johnmark? Is one method better than the other? (do they do the same thing?)

I'm thinking I might have to deal with this pushrod slot as well.

 

No, if the head broke off, the stem would be 1/4" taller than the rest.
I do believe you will have to repair the valve seats and combustion chamber.
Hope I'm wrong.
EDIT: just to be sure, you can put it back together and run a compression test on that cylinder.

 

So, if you don't think the head broke off, what exactly do you think happened, in order to make that kind of carnage??
Well it's mostly in one piece now, I'd just have to put the valve spring on, and toss on two new pushrods and set the lash, then I could do a comp test. I think I can rent that locally....

 

You never said if you moved the exhaust valve. Atleast do a bump test after it's sprung up. If you can't pop it off the seat with the butt of a hammer handle, the rocker won't move it either.

 

Oh yea, I moved it with the valve spring compressor. It went down a bit, then the locks started to feel a bit loose. I could still move the valve though.
I'll button it up, then try a comp test, tomorrow if I can. Then i'll go from there, but I imagine i'll be removing the head eh?

 

Yeah, the reason I don't think it is a geometry problem is all the cylinder setups are the same and the problem is on only one cylinder and it repeated bending a pushrod. Also the engine has been run for many hours without a problem since you put in the cam. The engines that I've see that bent pushrods had damaged valve seats. When the cylinder fires it forces the valve into the seat with several tons of force. When the seat erodes the 45' angle of the valve and seat become curved like ((. This allows the valve to wedge in the seat. That's why I had you do a straight edge test. The valve on a seat that "sunk" will always be .030" or more taller than the rest. A bent valve will be .030" or more shorter.
________________
t_t__t_t__l_t__t_t =bad seat

______________
l_l__l_l__t_l__l_l =bent valve (cheesy graphics, I know)

Either one will show up on a compression test. Bad seat = -10+ psi, bent valve = -50 psi.
Only other problem I can think of is an object embedded in valve relief of the piston. But this usually is accompanied by a sparkplug with the tip beat up.

 

First off, thanks guys for all the help. I guess I owe you another case of beer there Andy
Apeiron - That tip about the stop-**** for the coolant plug sure made this a breeze, thanks.

Ok, I removed the head, since I figured either way the pushrod slot is FUBAR'd, and will need to be dealt with.

The head looks pristine. Ok, dirty as sin, but everything is "right". The seat (exhaust) on that side looks just peachy. The valve looks, and feels good, slides well, etc. I haven't checked that intake yet, and I will soon, i'm going to remove the spring on that side too.
I'll see if I can get someone with a camera to snap a pic or 3 for me, but for now you guys will have to trust me.

I think perhaps I didn't elongate the pushrod slot enough, and it jammed it up there with my 1.6 rockers. At least on this cylinder. That's the only thing I can think of.

Again, the tappets look great. The exhaust one there was sitting up in the lifter valley, I guess it got tossed with no pushrod there to hold it down. :yikes: I checked all the lifters on the PS of the engine and the bottoms are perfect looking. I know that should cause a massive oil leak towards the forward lifters, but they seem ok...?

So I guess my options are;
-weld up / braze and remachine the #6 exhaust pushrod slot. (need machine shop), as well as elongate the #6 intake slot

- drill out both of these slots, and buy the comp cutter to cut down my rocker stud bosses, and buy 2 of the collared threaded studs, and install those, along with a single guide plate

- drill out the two slots and buy 2 similar SA rockers. I can't seem to find these anywhere, nothing similar in the SA, that I can buy singularly at least.

I think option 1, or maybe 2 is feasible. This is all assuming that the single problem I have is the pushrod slots, and absolutely everything else is fine. That sound overly optimistic?

 

Option #3. Go back to 1.5 rockers. Run it for a while and see if it does it again. You've probably got the old set laying around somewhere.

Why does weird stuff always happen to you?

Can't say that really, I spent several months troubleshooting a steering issue only to discover that my strut mount was bad. Bearing in it wouldn't turn freely when torqued to the side. It was less than a year old. Go figure.

 

Yea no kidding eh? I get the WEIRD problems that stumps everyone...

Then it turns out to be something really obvious (my rear end breaking), or sometimes something really obscure (tuning issues turning into a wiped cam, 3 months after break in).

ahem, cough, actually I tossed my 1.5 rockers.. I do try to save some of the old parts, but I just didn't have room for them I guess

I'm going to try to bring this head in to my machinist and ask his advice, I think if he see's the head, he might have a "eureka". I know it's damn hard for you guys to see across the internet and give me advice...

I might be able to grab some plain jane 1.5 rockers from the JY, or some el-cheapo stock style ones from a parts store or high-perf shop. The roller tipped 1.5 ratio ones were $80, but then I'd have some 1.6 ratio ones collecting dust...

 

Well, at least we're here for you...

 

Yea, man, if It wasn't for this board i'd be driving another delta 88 or a sunbird by now.... (well, soon enough, I do want reliable transportation for the winter...)

So my machinist agrees, the slots weren't lengthened enough, and since I fubar'ed my slot I'll have to drill it out. The machinist thinks that I probably shouldn't just drill out these ones, as the rest might break soon anyway...

So i'm either going guide plates, or SA rockers.

With guideplates i'd need collared studs ($80), guideplates ($22), and the comp tool to cut down the rocker stud boss (I think there's a comp tool for this, $100 IIRC).

Or SA, entry level 1.5 ratio ones from summit NAL-12495490, are $55. Plus the 1/2" 3/8" shank drill bit which i'd need for either method.
I think i'll get the SA rockers. Anyone know of a source for 1.6 ratio SA rockers that are inexpensive? I'd rather not drop $230 on them. These $55 ones fit the bill nicely. I found some from Proform that are roller tipped, and $130, but i'm hoping for cheaper. Like the $55 ones, but in 1.6 ratio. I can't find such an animal, anyone?

 

The entr level rockers I mentioned above were $55, I bought them. Just for giggles I asked at the local GM stealership - $110, "oh, thats a great deal for those"
So they get here from summit, pay massive duty to cross the border, open 'em up and they're stamped "made in canada".
[snap!]


Anyway, i'll put it all together and see how it goes. I got a 1/2" with 3/8" shank drill bit for $20, with 3 flats on the 3/8" part. Holy cow, when that thing grabs in the head, that HURTS the hands....

 

that is exactly why i have a very wimpy drill

 

You paid tax, not duty.

 

Well no, $10 tax + $40 "UPS border fee". I just refer to that as duty.... That's their fee so that ground mail goes through their own customs office, and only takes 3 days, rather than collecting dust at a Canada Mail office (and going airmail), and taking 3 weeks, but only costing $5 on that flat rate.

I drilled out those holes, and got all the metal shavings off the heads. Cleaned 'em up a bit too. There's a lot of black in the chambers, and the engine has maybe 1000miles on it. I need to jet down (rod down) my primary fuel mixture badly...
Anyway, i'll post up in the next few days when I get the heads on it and see if it runs. I'm going to do it up as is, then do the ignition upgrade later, so that I can tell if i'm actually gaining anything with it.

 

That's "brokerage", not duty. Duty is something entirely different that we used to pay on top of everything else before free trade.

 

Man what the heck is with you and camshafts Sonix, you are like me. If there is a flaw we always find them, the worst possible way.

 

D'argh...
So it was raining like crazy here for the last few weeks. With the top end of my engine apart... And a cowl hood..... Anyway, it rained torrentially while I was at work, so when I finally got a chance to put a bag on the engine it had already filled up. I drained the oil and probably got 1.5 quarts of water first, then the oil.
So yea, drained the water from the block, mopped it up in the lifter valley. Buttoned it up. I *think* no more water went into it. Waiting for the punch line here? yep...

So I dump in 4l of miscellaneous oil from my garage. I figured i'd get it started and make sure there's no leaks, then swap to the $$mobil 1$$ I recently bought.

So I finally get it started tonight, holy cow distributor timing is going to be the death of me... Anyway, got it to run. re-set the timing to 24* base, as normal... I noticed i'm smoking a fair bit. The headers, as usual from all the oil I ALWAYS spill on them, and a fair bit out the tailpipe. So I figured it was just oil in the combustion chamber. I revved it a few times, and I nearly smoked out the neighborhood, check the oil. CHOCOLATE MILK.

D'ARGH! I'm pretty sure I buttoned up the head gaskets and intake correctly. I find it hard to believe I could have this much of a leak this fast. I do however think that I managed to have a bit of water leak into the engine So rather than tear down the top end again to check a 'suspected' bad intake and head gasket set, i'm just going to drain the oil and fill it up with new oil again.

That sound logical?


Oh, and lo and behold my rear end cover leaked out all my gear oil. Gotta re-rtv that one...

 

Drained the oil, yep, greenish.
Ripped off the intake - looks pristine.

I guess that means head gaskets
I couldn't find a cooling system tester within walking distance, so I can either bus it down and rent/buy a cooling system tester and put back on the intake and check that - or just buy head gaskets and re-do those.

I am very leery to replace that though, they seemed completely fine when I put them on...?

Any advice?