skinny z

I've wasted a set of OEM hydraulic lifters to the point where the valve lash went out on a couple of cylinders. One of the lifters I removed was completely concave on the cam mating surface. Several lifters were not able to be removed.
I know that there is large amount of lifter and probably camshaft material floating around in the oiling system and has been for some time.(Certainaly a couple of thousand miles).
Has anybody had a similar experience and was a complete disassembly required to flush out the debris? The bottom end on this engine is nice and tight and I'd not rather not have to take it apart..

SpitotRs305

i have had similar problems wiped 2 cam lobes and 3 lifters in about 50 miles do to excessive spring pressure
a complete rebuild revealed scoring on the main bearings and glitter in the oil obviously also rod bearings were hurting...

it is time to atleast pull it apart

BASSETT IROC 85

iTrader: (2)

Yes man I would tear the engine down and clean it out.Tear it down and have the block vat cleaned. Replace the cam and all the lifters with new ones. Make sure you use comp cams cam lube to brake the cam in. Use STP or GM OES to keep from wiping out another cam lobe. Or switch to a roller cam.Over the last ten years the zinc levels have been lowered in oil to save catalytic converters.This lowering the zinc levels have cost flat tappet cams to fail.

jv9999

iTrader: (1)

You need to use a zinc additive in every oil change for flat tappets to survive. They took it out of oil to extend the life of catalytic converters.

jccaclimber

Is there one particular brand of additive that works better than others? Edit: what should I look for in additives, or a I simply after anything that says "zinc engine oil additive" on it?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I wiped a cam. Full rebuild was needed, my main, rod and cam bearings were scored.
I use GM EOS on every oil change. I find that's the best one.

Quick_Trans_Am

iTrader: (2)

Not to steal this thread, but I don't get how engine oil saves a catalytic converter... I must have missed this, I do know the zinc has been removed from most conventional oils, but I'm missing how that affects a cat. Anyone care to fill me in?

Also: Yes you should tear down that engine and check out your bearings. Notice a drop in oil pressure lately?

2000jack

I have read that they have taken it out, maybe it (Pb) reacted with the platinum or coated it as it went through the cat. At the same time I read that this particular cam company, whose name I don't remember, supplied their own oil to be coated generously on the new parts as break in was crucial to long durabilty.

skinny z

I've had a noisey lifter or two for at least a season. Turns out those are two of the lifters that are wiped out. I'd think that the debris is well distributed through the engine by now and any damage done is done. I just finished a 2000 mile trip and the engine probably had another 10 000 on it with new 1.6 rockers and bee hive springs. That and the wrong engine oil probably induced the failure. Still that's over 40 000 miles on stock OEM lifters and a little 218 cam.
Anybody had luck with a full solvent flush using a priming tool and then running several oil flushes to get things clean?
I'd also have to pull the lifters out through the cam bore because of the damage. Anyone with experience with that procedure. Get's me to thinking of mushroom flat tappets and how they're replaced.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Look up "catalyst poisoning", that's the catch phrase for this phenomenon.

F-BIRD'88

http://www.zddplus.com/

Funny how the EPA justifies severely compromising the rapid short term engine wear avoided by zinc anti wear additives in engine oil at the the cost of hundreds-thousands in internal engine repair cost to extend the life of a $100 exhaust component that is easily replaced and rebuild/reconditioned/recycled at less than $100per unit. What would make more sense? spend $100 to maintain/exchange/rebuild/recycle the catalytic converter say every 40,000 to 50,000 miles or rebuild your engine more more frequently for thousands in parts and labour cost.
The flat tappet cam and lifters is just one component that benefits from critical long proven zinc anti wear additives in engine oil.

BASSETT IROC 85

iTrader: (2)

Here is the deal . When the Feds. starting making car makers warranty their converters to or over 100k miles the Automakers had the oil makers drop the levels of Zinc and other items that lubricate to save converters and EGR valves. These lubricants are good for metal contact in a high pressure area but are considered as trash or impurity in the oil that can cause carbon build ups. Automakers did not have a problem with the new clean oil because every engine under warranty has a roller cam in it. I have heard Gm has thought of discontinued their EOS. It has a warning lable on it now that it is to be used to brake in a new engine and not to be used every oil change. I have heard EOS can be hard to find at some dealerships. Because EOS looks like STP oil treatment I emailed STP and ask if it contained zinc and they stated that zinc in one of the main ingredients.

skinny z

So how does it look for future flat tappet builds? Is there enough confidence in using a supplement at every oil change or switching to a diesel engine oil like Rottella in order to preserve the components?
It's about another 600 bucks in the difference between cam packages.

85gulstrandTA

At some point in the future I hear Rottella will be losing the zinc also. Then what ? Start looking for roller cammed motors only ? Hopefully GM's OES will still be the same, It's great stuff.

BASSETT IROC 85

iTrader: (2)

Oil makers started lowering zinc levels diesel engine oil in 2006. Each year the level will be lowered.

DartByU

Why would anyone want a flat tappet anyway??? Rollers are way better, and anyone that can't afford a roller setup should find a different cheaper hobby anyway.

BASSETT IROC 85

iTrader: (2)

I see alot of people that have to run a flat tappet cam in their engine by rule. your right if you have a late model roller block. The cheapest retro roller lifters I have seen are $250.00.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Yea, $200 for a complete flat tappet setup vs $800 for a complete retro roller kit - boy it's an easy choice eh? Let me just reach into my magical growing wallet here...
I can afford to dump some EOS into the crankcase every now and then.

85gulstrandTA

If you have a non roller block that needs rebuilt, and then add retro roller cam, retro roller lifters, you'll need new springs now too, maybe labor to set up the heads. Now none of these cheap and hearing someone willing to buy cheaper Cam or lifters....well I feel they are setting up thier own failure. I'm thinking your wanting to step up to a roller set up but then want to cheapen up on the roller set up. I laugh so hard sometimes it hurts (after all china parts=bad). Use what you can afford or justify and learn how to care for it. That is the point of all of us sharing, Right?

BASSETT IROC 85

iTrader: (2)

A MEN BROTHER

skinny z

Already have Comp springs (which contributed to the failure) and Pro Magnum 1.6 rockers. I'm a firm believer in the Made in USA product. It pains me to buy anything offshore.
Set up is not a problem. My shop is fairly well equiped and the procedure is nothing new.
My mistake came from the misconception that after breaking in a flat tappet cam and lifters, I'd be off the hook regarding engine oil specification. It took about 3 or 4000 miles of abusive driving however the combination of the new springs, increased rocker ratio and no oil additives eventually wiped out the lifters.
Live and learn.

85gulstrandTA

I hear that "live and learn" Something that alot of poeple do not do on break in is removing the inner spings and dampners to break in the cam either. They think it is too muck work, but tearing down the motor is not. If you had Comp cam and lifters and springs and then unless WOT was applied under a heavy load, you should have been fine.

skinny z

A new set of lifters would have been a good idea anyway. I was asking a lot from a tired cam and lifters (+30 000 miles) to hold up to the upgraded valve train.
Incidentaly, WOT is EVERYDAY!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

More than likely improper break-in caused the failure, not the oil used (although using a ILSAC GF-4 oil probably hastened the final failure after the improper break-in damage was started).

The likelihood of flat tappet failure after proper break-in when using a quality diesel/gas CF-4+ rated synthetic like AMSOIL Series 3000 HDD 5W-30 (which I just happen to use in my flat tappet engine) is near zero.

While the point of roller lifters is taken, I also don't understand the mindset that thinks $2/quart oil changed every 3000 miles is less expensive than $7-10/quart premium synthetic that is changed once a year or 25k miles.

skinny z

The cam in lifters have been in the engine for nearly 40 000 miles. It wasn't until I upgraded to a Comp Beehive spring and 1.6 ratio (about 4 000miles ago) that the problems started to showup. Break in didn't seem to be an issue. I use full synthetic all the time and change it 2 or 3 000 miles. I will say the last road trip (2 000 miles) was probably too much because everything went to sh*t the day after I returned. Mind you I did make several WOT passes the evening before checking out the new high stall convertor, ignition tune and LCA relocation brackets.

4RCEPWRD

iTrader: (5)

Im about break in a flat tappet cam tonight. I have some Rotella T 30w, and I guess I just want to know if that is sufficient for break in as far as zinc content goes? Or do I need to go get some of the G.M. additive as well? If so how much of the additive do I put in there? I had no idea about this problem until I read this thread.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

What did you use for assembly lube?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

What oil did you use for break-in? What assembly lube did you use? Did you use old lifters on a new cam, or vice versa?

What synthetic oil are you using?

Are you sure you have sufficient valve travel for the 1.6:1 rockers?

I'm not ready to blame this on the oil. I may get there, but need more particulars first.

For the record, OES is not an oil additive, it is an assembly/break-in lube only.

4RCEPWRD

iTrader: (5)

I used some Permatex assembly lube which was recommended to me, and everything is new i.e. lifters, springs, pro magnum 1.52, except for the pushrods which are pretty fresh as well, I had less than 8,000 miles on them and they came in the crate engine.

skinny z

I know what caused my failure.
Wrong specification engine oil and new valve springs. Although the cam/lifters had been broken in 30 000miles the engine oil didn't have the wear agents needed to sustain the higher over the nose pressures and the flat tappets. It just wore out plain and simple.
For the record:
New engine.
The cam and lifters (new GM lifters and new Clevite cam) were installed in a new engine using Comp Cams installation lube. Part number 152.
Crankcase filled with Rotella.
Zero issues on start up with the requisite 20-30 mins of varied engine speed between 2 000 and 3 000 rpm.
Oil changed after break in with fresh Rotella.
Oil changed again after about 500 miles. This time to full synthetic.
Push rod length and all other critical dimensions were checked and rechecked. ( I'm big on measuring)
This combo, with stock Vortec valve springs and 1.5 ratio rockers performed flawlessly for 30 000 miles. 13.4 @ 102 mph and 20 mpg hiway for a couple of seasons. Used zero oil.
Engine reassembled after a freshening up using the same break in procedure as before (even though the same cam and lifters were reused) however new springs and 1.6 rockers were installed.
No troubles to report however a noisey lifter started to develop at the start of this season.
To make a long story short, soon after ( maybe 3 000 miles and a long road trip) the cam and lifters were toast.
Used Castrol Syntec or Quaker State full synthetic (10w30) and quality filters always. May have stretched the oil changes a bit (over 3 000 miles) a couple of times however the oil always appeared fresh and clean.
It wasn't until the last long road trip and evening of tuning and beating that it gave up.
Moral: Flat tappets are OK if; you pay attention to ALL break in procedures .Break in lube, proper spec oil, reduced spring pressures ( for dual springs etc.), engine starts quickly the first time with no troubles during the first 20 or 30 mins. It's also been recommended, here and elsewhere, that the proper oil be used or the proper additive ALL the time.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Those are "Group 3" synthetics. Synthetic by regulatory fiat only. Highly refined petroleum base, better than "standard" petroleum base lubes, but well short of truly synthesized Group 4 synthetics.

What was the lift on the Clevite cam? Stock Vortecs have been known to only have ~.440" safe travel. You said you're big on measuring, but didn't provide valve travel data. Going from 1.5's to 1.6's very well could have pushed you over the limit.

Behives have lower pressure than comparable dual performance valve spring, I don't see them contributing to your failure.

Did you put the lifters back in the same spot when you reused them during the refresh?

skinny z

The Clevite has (had) only .458" lift. I was well within the coil bind limitations of the stock Vortecs. The coil stack up and guide boss/retainer clearences were all checked. I upgraded to 1.6 rockers along with Comp Beehive springs to get a little more lift and possibly more performance. As it turned out, with just the rocker ratio upgrade ( and I'm aware of differing altitude densities when considering A to B time slips from different days) I dropped over two tenths in the quarter. I've heard the vortecs like lift in the .5" range. Seemed to work.
The open pressures are a bit higher than a stock Vortec. Was it enough to cause the failure? Maybe. Maybe not. One thing is certain. All the elements combined to wipe out the lifters. Increased spring pressures. Higher rocker ratio. Age. Oil spec. Abuse. Seemed destined to fail.
All the lifters were installed in their original locations too.
Regearding the engine oil spec. Do any of the synthetics carry the OEM wear specification? I understand that "diesel spec" oil still has the necessary additive (but not for long?) but I'm not aware of any gasoline engine oil that has it.

SpitotRs305

wow you managed .488 out of stock vortecs... i have 2 sets and the best stock retainer to valve boss is only .466... i had to ghetto grind the retainers and locks/surface grind... you might want to double check your retainer to valve boss clearance as .488 without mods is unheard of

skinny z

.458" BEFORE the rocker arm upgrade. I had lots of clearence with the stock parts.
The Beehive springs are reduced in diameter and have a tiny retainer. Not much bigger than a quarter. Those springs and retainer allow for over .600 lift if you need it. They drop right onto the Vortecs with no machining what so ever.

SpitotRs305

yes... .458 before you went to 1.6 rockers then it is .488 after...
the problem isnt retainers which maybe you got "extra" thin retainers no thicker than a quarter..right.... however the locks which unless you changed your valves have stayed in the same place which have been slamming into the tops of the positive seals and probably the valve bosses....


the trick with the beehive springs and the extra lift is the retainers and locks they are on a different angle than standard 7/10 degree i forget which is which

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Did you get the 0.050" off-set retainers?

skinny z

Didn't need any mods or anything special other than the springs and retainers as shipped. Stock locks snd steel retainers (the diameter is the size of a quarter not the thickness).
Still plenty of room after the 1.6 rockers.
I'll be .550"+ after the new cam goes in and still won't have any clearence issues. It wasn't a clearence issue that caused my problems.
Just a combination of the wrong parts, engine oil and my own bad luck.
The engine builder in the racing crew who I hang out with said that's it's about 50/50 whether or not my upgraded combo caused the failure. He's has seen similar results with different conditions.

grumpyvette

ID strongly suggest after following the other advice that you install magnets
I usually leave a couple in the lifter gallery to collect broken valve train components and metalic dust anyway,and a couple in the oil pan to collect metalic crud ,Id also suggest strongly that your clearances and spring load rates be checked carefully and you use CRANE CAMs MOLY ASSEMBLY LUBE

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Crane Cams 99002-1 $8


high temp (300F)

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D66SH

HIGHER TEMP
(480F)

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetai...prod=SMCO%2D62

I buy 50-100 at a time theres LOTS of uses

skinny z

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The engine has been disassembled and it looks like it's toast. Some of the main bearing shells have little or no bearing material left and the crank main journals are scored.
Several of the lifters are completely concave and one cam lobe is practically just a base circle.
Most of the bearing damage is in the rear mains. They get lubrication first and most of the contaminents too.
The rod bearings fared a little better and the coating on the piston skirts is showing a little wear.

SpitotRs305

are those solid lifters? as you cant see a single oiling hole... or do you have a part#

and with that kind of localized damage to the cam it seems like you have a clearance problem on those to sets of valves...

skinny z

No clearence issues. Just old lifters on an old cam with new bee hive springs. Combine that with today's engine oil and you get what you see.
Factory hydraulic lifters FYI.

SpitotRs305

okay man just looks alot like these