GeneL

Hi guys,

Car: 1983 Camaro Sport Coupe, T-Top
Engine: LG4 5-Liter V8, 305cid
Transmission: Manual 5-speed

I got curious after reading about the new Cash for Clunkers program which The U.S. Congress recently voted and passed (The Consumer Assistance to Recycle and Save and Act (CARS) H.R. 2751).

Government Plan Gives You Up To $4,500 For Trading In Your Old Car
http://autos.aol.com/article/cash-clunkers-questions

My question is whether or not my '83 Camaro would qualify?

The reason I'm not sure is because I purchased the vehicle in January of 1983 and obviously the car would have been manufactured in 1982.

So technically, even though it's properly registered as an '83, it was actually "built" or manufactured in the year '82 in Van Nuys.

Do you think my car would qualify if I chose to consider this?

Thanks!

Guest

Highly unlikely, since the stuff I saw says "Be manufactured less than 25 years before the date of the trade-in"
So basically 1985 or newer, or real late in 84.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/cash4clunkers.shtml

Go visit the history board, they're convinced this wont affect thirdgens it seems.

Brennan

please reconsider, if you dont want the car sell it to someone who does. dont let another third gen die

84olmpcboy

Don't let another one go out for scrap. If its to far gone it will make a great race car or parts car.

ericjon262

I'm really glad about this cash for clunkers thing, my cousin is getting rid old his '94 chevy 1500 that has a bunch of TBI bolt ons that I'm going to get for free for my car now! I think I'm getting an injector spacer, a TB spacer, a larger bore TB, and an afpr, all for free!

90fbrdprgt

Please don't.

campin1983

iTrader: (4)

Just curious, what makes you want to scrap your Firebird for a coupon worth up to $4,500 for a brand new, fuel sipping car? You do realize that there are gas mileage requirements for the vehicle you purchase, it has to be brand new and your old car had to be insured for a year and in drivable condition at the point of the trade in?

I honestly didn't think many F-Body owners would really want to scrap an old muscle car for a brand newnew fuel sipper. I'm really curious as to what leads you to want a vehicle much different and more expensive than what you had?

PS: I'm not being critical, just honestly curious, as this has been a long standing debate if this program would affect our cars or not.

monkihead

I can understand wanting to use this program. If I try and sell an f-body that doesn't have working a/c, power windows, locks, etc- I'd be lucky to get 2k for it. They gov would be willing to take my car and give me 1500 more towards a new car. New car/truck being more fuel efficient, more creature comforts and with warranty. So far as "power" issues go, they're irrelevant with todays technology.

drknow90rs_ss@y

iTrader: (3)

From what I understand, the only "Truck" (If you can call it that) on the list is the honda ridgeline. Personally, I would rather push my thirdgen than drive an import. (Hey, at least I will still be pushing a cool car!)

okfoz

Here in lies a problem... First off I am not sure if you can actually both trade in the car AND get the Cash for clunkers deal. If you can trade in your car AND get the additional $4500 that is one thing, but I suspect that dealers are not going to want to give you money for a car that they will have to crush.

So you decide to buy a new car, you have to ask, what is your budget? In the end no matter what car you buy you still have to make a decision made upon what you can afford. Although you are technically getting $4500 bucks from the American people (remember "We the People") to replace your old car with a new one, you still have to make a purchase...

For humor, I have no idea what your car is really worth, but let us assume that your car is worth $2000 on the market. (It was used in a previous post so I will run with it) It is technically a semi-classic, right on the cuspid of actually appreciating in value. So if they give you nothing for a trade in but $4500 to buy a car that gets 10 Mpg better or $3500 to buy a car that gets 4 Mpg better. Let us assume that you want to get the most out of your purchase, and want the full $4500...

Comparable Cars you could buy to replace your 1984+ Camaro.... I was going through the list and there is not much that I would really be willing to trade one of my cars for... Here is the list http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2009.pdf . Things that I would have suspected might be on the potential list of possibly replacements and are not, the Pontiac Solstice is not efficient enough... You can get yourself a nice G3 or G5... or a Chevy Cobalt... Or one of the Hybrids... Beyond that you will definitely be more likely to get a $3500 deal.

Regardless, Lets go back to the original assumption that you want the $4500 rebate, that leaves you with a Cobalt or something similar. The Cobalt lists at $16K approx and you still need to pull from your pocket about $12,000...

First thing I can think of lots of things I could do to get better efficiency with my $12K... Hmm, I hear the LS1's can be tuned to get 30+ Mpg and still kill on the strip... I got a quote a few years back to put an LS1 into my bird for around $8K... $12K for a cleaner job...

In the end your $2000 car now is appreciating, that means it is gaining value. The really nice cars are going for really good money in some cases. Some cars that will probably never take off are the cars that do not fall into the program... like the V6 and I4 cars will always have little or no value, not even to the government. In any case, before the Bush era caused recession and now Obama era caused Depression the cars were actually increasing in value at a reasonable clip. It was not uncommon for some cars to be fetching in the mid teens for value... But now that they have gone backwards a bit, the car that was worth $2500 a year ago is now worth $2000... I suspect that same car, if left untouched, hermetically sealed in a box for 5 years should be worth $4000 at the end of the period IF the economy turns around on its own without the aid of the government. The car you will buy for $16,000 less $4500 + Taxes (remember those), will be worth about $6000 If you are lucky. In a few years after that as your newer Cobalt is depreciating rapidly, Someone who saved their Camaro will be enjoying the fact that their car is now worth more than the Cobalt that they thought about buying.

So for those who are not following me...
In 5 years you decide to sell whatever car you...
Option #1 You dive in and bought a brand new car in 2009
In 2014
You have pay $12000 + tax + interest + Higher Plate fees
The car worth $6000
$6000
-$12,000
($6000) in the hole.

Option 2 you chose to keep your 1984 Camaro ( I realize the thread started with a 1983, but it does not apply to the program. )
$2000 (Value now)
$2000 (value in 5 years additional)
$4000

Even if you factor in the difference in what you would pay for Gas, driving 15K miles a year, you may or may not make out the difference ... The difference for 10 Mpg:
@ $2 / gal = $595.24 / year
@ $3 / gal = $892.86 / year
@ $4 / gal = $1190.48 / year

Call me crazy but to me it sounds like a better investment to keep that old Camaro, of course you have lower insurance, lower plate fees, and you did not have a loan to pay off, you did not spend anything on interest to the bank, etc... Besides I highly doubt that you will be driving your Camaro 15K miles a year...

Ultimately it is going to have to be up to the buyer to see whether or not they want to take the dive into a new car. In the end what should be the foremost concern is "can I afford a new car" or "do I really want to afford a new car."

Personally I could probably afford anything I really wanted, but ultimately it breaks down to do I really want to make that kind of investment. Ultimately this will entice people to think that they are getting a great deal, but in the end they still have to buy a car and in a few years it will be another Freddie/Frannie thing where the repo guy will get a bunch of business, and some of those people that got a great deal, are now back into another clukner... In short people that have the money to make a new car purchase do not drive the type of car that is going to be in the program, or it does not make financial sense to take the plunge because they are getting a huge rebate. And there are those that do can't afford it regardless of the inflationary economic stimulus. It does not help our country more than it will hurt it... I have heard that a similar plan worked in Germany a few years back... And Germans pay 48% to their government in taxes...

In the end I am not sure as a country we can afford it... If sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

campin1983

iTrader: (4)

I absolutely agree with okfoz on this. This program seems to be intended, and benefit those who are driving cars with no future value and are expensive to keep/maintain, such as mid to late 90's SUV's and trucks.

And I also agree, there is no trade in value for cars that go in this program. How it works, is the dealer takes it in, then hands it over to the govt for crushing. The govt credit is the only value for the vehicle.

I do however admit that I underestimated who may try to use the program. Everyone who is thinking of this needs to remember, this is not $4500 cash that they are offering you, its a $4500 coupon to buy something. If you wouldn't have bought it without the coupon, don't buy it now.

okfoz

Also it is not a coupon insofar as a real discounted price. It is actually our money that is going into this... We pay taxes so those who are less fortunate can get a great deal on a car... If it sounds like Marxism...

I forgot to mention a new small car is probably not as safe as your big-ole-clunker Camaro.

John

GeneL

First of all, as the OP, I appreciate all the suggestions, interest and yes, even the warnings, you've all taken the time to put into responding to my question.

My purpose of starting this thread was twofold: 1) to simply define where my particular Camaro lined up in regards to whether or not it actually qualified for the program (since it's on the "cusp") and, 2) to open up dialog to discuss this new program that might be helpful to other 3rd Gen owners seeking knowledge and guidance regarding the program since many of their own cars will qualify and they might seriously be considering taking advantage of the program.

Let me refer to what okfoz recently posted just to let you know that I'm not seriously considering trading in my '83 for many of the reasons he stated:
Everyone who has responded has given me the encouragement to keep holding on to my '83, for one reason as has been pointed out, it's soon to be considered a "classic" by many and this will hopefully in time allow it to appreciate in value making it more worthy of being an investment in the future.

Thanks again everyone, I'll keep monitoring the thread as I continue to learn more about this new "Cash for Clunkers" program. Just the fact none of us would seriously consider our 3rd Gens "clunkers" probably speaks volumes about how we really feel about our machines as well as the pertinence of the "clunkers" program itself.

campin1983

iTrader: (4)

Glad to see your Camaro won't be heading to the govt crushing bins. The politics about the program aside, I just don't think it was meant for cars like ours.

I hope a little advice goes a long way toward saving 3rd gens from the scrap heap. When i was a kid, I was in love with the 80's IROC's and the early 90's 'birds, and I'd hate to see them end up in the scrap heap for a credit toward something less iconic.

monkihead

Key word here is "I". You may not want a car on that list, but someone else might.

Cobalt lists at 16$. You can't negotiate lower than list price??

How many people have that type of cash on hand? If that were the case, may as well buy a cobalt(or similar) for cash and save on finance charges.

If GM folds and Chevrolet gets sold off or dies, value will be the scrap metal its made of. Price an oldsmobile or daewoo.

how are you in the hole??

12k+taxes+interest+higher plate fees(??)
-3500 gov credit
-250 month payment for 5 years~ with average/bad credit (11%)
=paid off by 2014

Car will be valued roughly between 5k-6k

4K in value? I'd hope for more, but your not marking maintenance. Engine rebuilding, trans issues, bushing replacements - all the type of maintenance that new cars are covered under warranty for.

I do. I had a new car, first year I put on 42k miles. I drove everywhere. The second and third year I found myself at 14k and 16k miles.

I think that some of ya'll are missing the true benefit. If you are a car enthusiast, keep you camaro/firebird/ta. If you have a good job, could use a car that has a warranty(to prevent break-downs), need more room or are just running a tighter budget- this could be for you.

If they had this program a few years back I would have done it. Traded in a 1994 suburban for a camry or corrola. I didn't need an suv, just needed better transportation.

We also pay taxes for having a military, roads and postal services. Should we shrink the budget just for you to get an extra 5$ a paycheck?

less fortunate? They're trying to move cars to keep a steady production. No sales = no production = more layoffs = GM sold off/ disbanded.

campin1983

iTrader: (4)

monkihead - your entirely missing the point of what was being said. Most 3rd gen cars are not daily drivers, especially those in the type of shape to be considered for this program. You said you "had a new car, first year i put 42k miles." Don't question that. But you had a new car, not a worn old car, and you certainly didn't put 42k on a project car.

I'm also not sure what trouble you are having with his math. If you spend 12k on a car, and its worth 6k several years later, the net amount is -6k. And he put those numbers up just as examples, sure you can negotiate a lesser price, or maybe you option it out and it costs more. 12k was simply a number for a point in the exercise.

Also: "If GM folds and Chevrolet gets sold off or dies, value will be the scrap metal its made of. Price an oldsmobile or daewoo." Absolutely not true. Look at the Hudson's and Packards from the middle of last century. They are worth something. A company's current status is irrelevant to a classic's value.

Bottom line: 3rd gens are on the very end of the "old junker" timeline and are starting to go into that collector phase. Investing in a collectors car while its still cheap is a better financial bet than buying a brand new run of the mill car.

And yes, some people could benifit from this program, as you said, in the case of that 94 Suburban. Very true. But your Suburban was simply transporation as you said. These 3rd gens, for the most part, are beyond that now. They are worth more than your Suburban, and they have future and present value, unlike a 15 year old SUV.

okfoz

I believe the major consensus of Americans would not drive a crappy small car unless they had to. Most normal Americans would prefer a Cadillac over a Chevy, or a Camaro over a Cobalt any day of the week. The point is the cars that are available for the deep discount are junky little Death Trap cars. GM did not go bankrupt because Americans did not want to buy their products, GM was STILL the largest manufacturer of cars. GM went Bankrupt due to Legacy costs that they could not sustain.

I am sure I could, but then again you are already getting a $4500 discount, Dealers may not be as willing to negotiate as they were before the discounted price. In the end you still have to pay something for the car... At the end of 5 years you will lose money on a new car purchase, no matter what you pay for it new. Keeping your old car will save you money no matter what.

Again, that is not the point, if you were to save the $12K over 5 years, unfortunately most people are unlikely to save that amount, and they would be unlikely to spend it on a new engine when it came due... The point is you could save money in the long run by making reasonable financial decisions. Buying a new car, no matter the price is never a smart financial move. You are still better off buying a USED car as this may push the prices of used down a bit.


What planet are you from? Daewoo was a bomb from the beginning. Oldsmobile has some very desired cars and they did not depreciate to nothing. Look at the late 60's 442's...

You paid $12K for the car, You are only getting $6K back... how are you NOT in the hole?

Good point, chances are 3rd gens will be worth more than what I stated in the end of 5 years. AND you saved $8K. I guess you could take 2K on maintenance...

If you are on a TIGHT budget then how do you expect to pay for any new car, no matter the price? A tight budget means you Sustain what you have until all is lost, not buy new so you no longer can sustain. $200 a month on a 5 year loan WITHOUT interest... I think if anyone put that kind of money in ANY old car it would get really nice really quick. Especially if they saved enough at one time to pay for say paint... My suggestion is if you are on a really tight budget is to keep buying low cost cars, not new cars.

Which one was it? Camry or Corrola? That is an interesting point, BUT you did not need the Suburban BTW was it a GMC or Chevy? So in the end you benefited. BUT you did it WITHOUT the help of the people's money.

And things that are in the Constitution should be covered. Military & Roads are part of what the Government should be for, not supporting people IMHO that are fully able to work.

Actually it is closer to $3 per man woman and Child.. But you forget that 40% of those 300Mil do not pay taxes. So if you are lucky enough to actually have to pay income taxes it is actually closer to $6 per person. As far as I am concerned we should shrink the government by not subsidizing why men do not like condoms and other stupid programs that the Government throws money at.
And who said it had to go toward a US manufactured car? That is the problem here, you can buy ANY car Japanese, German, Chinese, Indian, Korean, and any of those will do NOTHING to help our economy... I am VERY loyal to GM, but I will NOT buy a GM car while GM is owned by the Government.

Gotta run, been fun.

John

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I see your point, except where you think:

A) Any thirdgen is worth $2000, especially an LG4 car
B) That it will actually appreciate in value.

There is still a god awful lot of these cars out there, and hardly anyone buying them. Even the average 16 year old wanting a thirdgen 10 years ago, now those 16 year olds want a civic.

So not to bust anyones chops, but really. Every time I see someone call a thirdgen a "classic" or a "muscle" car I want to hit 'em over the head.

All in all though, the Cash for clunkers thing is just liberal nonsense. But what do you expect. The majority of americans are morons who elected a terrorist to be in the whitehouse.


-- Joe

okfoz

Holy Smoke anesthes!, have you even looked at ebay?

If you have been watching at all there are several cars that go for more than 10K!

Here is a Formula
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...lenotsupported
Another Formula
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...lenotsupported
An IROC
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...lenotsupported

So where have you been living? The truth of it is that true just like the first and second Gens, there will be way more junk cars that will never be much more than a car. But some, not even the highest performing models, will have some real value. The cars that will have the most Value are these, been over it before. 1) Firehawk, 2) TTA, 3) L98 "350" cars, 4) LB9/M5 w/3.42 or 3.45 axle cars, you throw 1LE's in the mix and some of the Convertibles, and some of the pace cars... heck there are A LOT of cars out there that are really going to appreciate in value... It will not be as fast for an LG4 but the trends will pull those along some too...

John

89-bird

To add to all this crap the Gov. is doing and what car values are I had a '99 Ford Escort that had everything but sunroof and auto and disc changer and I got it for around 14grand minus my '98 Ranger tradein of 12grand I owed so the diffeerence was around 2grand added to the 14 before taxes and finance charges and after Idrove it off the lot it lost 3 grand in value . I ended up totaling the car and my insurence payed all but 5grand for the car . So in short I will never own a "NEW" car again . If I want a new car I'll get a newer used car .

okfoz

Honestly it is a problem with your Ins company, not the Govt in that case.

How long did you drive the car before you totalled it?

John

89-bird

About a year or a little longer . But it is bad that the car lost 3grand in value as soon as I drove off the lot .

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Insurance + excise tax is based on NADA trade in / private party value.

Dealer charges retail value, plus fees.

3 grand on a new car in the first year is reasonable. The last chevy I bought new (2007) depreciated by 6800 when I sold it this past February.

-- Joe

89-bird

It was 3grand off the lot then after a year another 2grand so 5grand in all .

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

These things happen. Don't buy new.

I'd love a brand new F350 super duty. But it will depreciate by 10k over the first 3-4 years.

-- Joe

okfoz

Why not either Wait 3 to 4 years (save yourself $10K) or if you "Need one" buy one 3 to 4 years old... That is exactly what I do... My 2005 Buick Rainier V8 AWD was $40K+ new I paid $15K for it in 2008 and it only had 50K on it... I figure I saved $25K, it looks and drives like new...

89-bird

Exactly buy used newer models if you want something new . And some still have factory warranty .

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I will. Eventually. I'd love a newer F350, especially for pulling the horse and car trailers, but then again my dodge is still in maintainable condition. (Although the pulling and stopping power is iffy).

Eventually something that can pull a 9,500 lbs trailer uphill would be nice though.

-- Joe

okfoz

My 12HP Case 222 with the 12HP engine could pull a 9K trailer up hill... Problem is it is really slow and it would smoke a little doing it...

John

mmadden55

x2

mmadden55

If GM folds and Chevrolet gets sold off or dies, value will be the scrap metal its made of. Price an oldsmobile or daewoo.

Price a classic Hudson, Pierce Arrow, Packard, Auburn Dusenberg, they all went out of business too. Don't worry Government Motors will be around for a while.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

So will my Oliver 550, but I can't take that on the interstate

-- Joe

KatsCam

Just read this a few minutes ago on Car and Driver online:

Five Reasons “Cash for Clunkers” is a Joke
Why Cash for Clunkers is more a political maneuver than substantive help for the U.S. auto industry — or the environment.
By Steve Siler

With news that Congress has passed its ballyhooed $1 billion “Cash for Clunkers” bill, we feel compelled to voice our skepticism about the program. Here’s the bill in a nutshell: Buyers of new vehicles between July 1 and November 1 will be given a voucher for $3500 if they forfeit a post-1984 car or truck that has been registered for at least one year and has a combined fuel economy rating at least 4 mpg lower than their new vehicle. The voucher grows to $4500 if the increase in fuel economy is 10 mpg or higher. The old car or truck is then crushed and recycled.

Here are five reasons we don’t think this program is worth the time it took to draft it, let alone a billion dollars:

1. The voucher replaces the trade-in deal you might otherwise get from the dealership; it’s not in addition to the car’s private sale or trade-in value. In other words, if you’re trading in a car that’s worth $3000, your net gain is only $500. Although if your car is worth $100, CFC couldn’t come at a better time.

2. We’re not sure how many folks driving cars worth $3500 or less are in the market for a new car in the first place. Sure, there’s the occasional fresh-out-of-college new-hire (we’re not sure who’s hiring right now, but we’ll play make-believe) that might still be ready to move from a Dodge Omni to a shiny new Honda Insight, but people driving cheap old beaters are probably doing so because they can’t afford a new car. And $3500 doesn’t go far when the average transaction price of new cars hovers around $24K. The vouchers don’t apply toward the purchase of used cars, for which the majority of old beaters are traded in.

3. People driving large, gas-gulping old cars and trucks often do so because they need the utility those vehicles provide. Old station wagons, for example, have few modern counterparts that are as versatile while achieving better fuel economy. Ditto pickups, which have gotten bigger and more capable but not much more fuel-efficient. And if the government thinks that someone is going to step out of a 1994 Dodge Ram into a Honda Fit, they need to get out of D.C. a little more often.

4. Naturally, we have some reservations about any bill designed to facilitate wiping out—we’re sorry, recycling—any automotive species. And let’s face it, while there are a lot of bona fide clunkers out there, we’re afraid that a bunch of future classics will get caught in this roundup. We propose, then, that a certified auto enthusiast (paid, of course) be placed at all certified CFC dealerships to screen the cars that are brought in, returning the cool cars—including anything with T-tops—to the streets.

5. Besides cleansing the U.S. of gas-guzzling pigs, the other supposed benefit of the CFC program is to provide a short-term boost to the starving auto business. However, we hope these legislators don’t expect it to meaningfully help the domestic automakers. Many of the automobiles with fuel-economy ratings high enough to qualify for the vouchers come from Japan and Korea.

On the bright side, the cost to taxpayers will be minimal when no one actually participates.

GeneL

Obviously authored by a ThirdGen enthusiast and protector.

The one point that hits home the most perhaps is #4...

okfoz

That is about what I have been thinking... I could not put it so eloquently... Thanks


John

nascarfan7

I (well my wife) took advantage of the cash for clunkers. Not to worry she didn't junk a third gen, lol.

She had a 2001 Isuzu Rodeo 4WD as a second/winter car. It looked fine, ran fine and got her where she needed to go. Past few months it had started to nickel and dime her to death. Check engine light, abs light, drivers power window died and with the rust underneath, I doubt it would pass inspection again.

Probably be lucky to get $500-$750 for it.

So she went and bought a 2009 Hyundia Accent, lol.

$4500 for the clunker, $500 down and a $1500 rebate, she was out the door for $5843 which equals a $146 monthly payment. For a new car (yes, I know it's a Hyundia)

It's sad to me that she didn't go with a domestic (Cobalt, Caliber or whatever small car would do) No one could come close to the as delivered price of the Hyundia.

Gumby

Well,whatever you do, do not access the cash for clunkers website. If you do, your computer automatically becomes federal government property.

"Text of the Privacy Act & Security Statement at cars.gov:

“This application provides access to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a Federal computer system and is the property of the U.S. Government. Any or all uses of this system and all files on this system may be intercepted, monitored, recorded, copied, audited, inspected, and disclosed to authorized CARS, Dot, and law enforcement personnel, as well as authorized officials of other agencies, both domestic and foreign.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Vte_Eza72Os

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

hey im us army retired every site i go on for health care, scheduling, prescriptions, retirement checks, everything - has them look at me.
frankly they dont see to care and no one has ever asked for my computer.
but if you want to make sure they dont know who you are -
go to the public library and use theirs.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

now the worst thing about c4c is that they are giving our tax money to support the uaw - and we all know how well they put together the car. the government used our money to take over gm and chrysler and sell the best parts to foreign governments.
then they used our moeny to give control over to the uaw and the givernment and now the givernment is bribing people to buy cars they would not already buy to support the American economy.
the real funny part is most of them are probably buying foreign. i wonder why?

aguynsd

Please don't. There are lots of people out there looking for parts for Camaros. Also restoring it is a good idea too. Not that I like seeing any car getting scrapped I wish it was just running the engine and transmission without oil then giving the rest of the car to salvage yard and not scrap iron dealer. I think the hardest parts to find on camaros are interior parts. Also how is the government helping out american car makers when they junk out american cars so people can buy rice burners. sorry, just a little upset.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Not to be a spoil sport or political advocate, but CFC is over
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/White-...10957.html?x=0

It turns out people came crawling out of the woodwork to offload their old stuff for a discount on something new
Ever met a frugal woman shopper? They will spend a dollar to save a dime

The likelyhood of a 3rd gen going under was narrow at best since half are too old and the other half are owned largely by enthusiasts who simply dont WANT a cheap econo car

Next, CFC cars do not hit the salvage yards because all parts of them are destroyed. The plan was to cut down on available parts so repairing old cars became more difficult spurning future new or nearly new purchases with people who did not partake in the CFC program

Red90IROC

I agree with some of your points... but the last one isn't quite right. Salvage yards can sell any parts off a C4C car they get in, other than powertrain, for six months before they have to crush or shred the car ( http://www.cashforclunkersfacts.com/...final-rule.pdf ).

I'm not in favor of the program. I believe it's a ridiculous waste of taxpayer $$ and will have little or no effect on the overall emissions of the US fleet of cars and trucks.

There's another twist, I read about on another site. Some folks are thinking they can do a C4C deal, then turn right around and sell the econocar they just got for a crazy low price, and use the "gain" to go and get a newer muscle car like a 2010 Challenger. That got me thinking... what will C4C do to used car values for small cars....

Conversely, it's likely to boost used prices for big SUV's, pickups and muscle cars. In fact it even makes the potential for 3gens better in the future.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

I believe third gens have no where to go but up in value. In the past many were used as hotrods buy young guys (no offense to young guys). and despite the large numbers that were produced, many were abused and ended up on the heap, unlike corvettes that were purchased for conciderably more that camaros, were better taken care of. My point is the third gen owners of today appreciate what they have, and will care for and maintain them. They will be worth more than a clunker in short time, and will be worth more than some of this new sipper sh** they are coming out with when they age.

Mudskunk

its hella lot more than 5$ a paycheck. for the folks that DO pay the taxes its more along the lines of several hundred. for the taxes they inflict on us.

as for the second bit the correct thing to do was to NOT bail GM out the government should have done nothing let gm go into bankruptcy get out from under the onerous union fiasco they are in and sell off to a another company. bailing out failing business with taxpayer dollars is never the right thing to do. all bailing out failing business does is to encourage business to KEEP making the same errors and bad policy that made tehm fail in the first place!!

gorge bush aimed the economic ship at the iceberg and obama has set the throttle full speed ahead. just cuz george did the wrong thing it isnt right for obama to speed the process up!!

my belief is that people shold get nothing from the government in the way of tax monies buying them things. the government is there to regulate trade tweent he states. negotiate traties with foreign countries and provide for the common defense. the government is way out of bounds and has been for a very long time. they have no business owning GM or other businesses. they have no business taking money from people to give to others. it does not matter if that money is 5$ a week or $5 million.

89RSTBI

iTrader: (5)

I have seen 4 third generations at one the local Ford place and one was a IROC and 2 others were Z'28's. I have seen a few 3rd gen's on the back of a hauler also coming through here with "Clinker" wrote on the windshield. I have also seen a few 4th gen camaro's at the Ford place as well with "Not for sale" on their windshield

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I was trying to trade my sisters '95 Firebird in for a new korean SUV, but it didn't qualify. If it was a earlier LT1 car it would have.

When you consider the fact that I sold my '96 Z28 convertible (lt1, 6 speed) for $5,000 cash a few months ago and it was in near mint condition, getting $4500 rebate for a third or fourth gen is pretty damn good from a dealership. When you consider, an IROC or Z28 thirdgen might fetch $500-$1000 for trade in under normal circumstances...

Besides, in theory, the less thirdgens on the road the more it makes your cars worth, right?


-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

This is kind of broken logic.

A thirdgen will never be worth what a 1st gen is worth, because A) they made too many of them, and B) they are from a period of time when everything sucked and nobody cared.

While it's true, some hardcore owners might post there car for sale for absurdly high prices, and call something with 200hp a "muscle" car, it's not.

A thirdgen, a second gen, a fourth gen - they are all good platforms to build hot rods and race cars because they are cheap, borderline worthless, and if you break it you can go out and find another one.

That is why I got rid of the Corvette and went back to Fbody. It's just more economical.

-- Joe

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

anesthes, I agree with you and at the same time I don't. I lived back in the 60's when the "muscle cars" were common. They were primitive by third gen standards. Built for strait line performance. Usually made form 2 door family cars w/ bench seats w/ a stronger engine, and decals. Seats were vinal, they raddled and squeaked when driven. They were common, and built to last 5 to 6 years. The word muscle car wasn't even a word. My third gens are both basically stock, but they are both quick, and can corner much better that my 68 Charger R/T could. So yea the third gens were common and beat on, but most of them are on the heap now and are becoming more scarce, just like the muscle cars of the 60's. Most of the muscle cars were beat to death and ended up on the heap. I remember during the oil embargo you couldn't give them away. Anyway, just some food for thought.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Depends on the car.

A first gen is lighter and smaller than a thirdgen. The 8.2 rear was nothing to write home about, but still stronger than a 7.5" thirdgen rear, and an 8.5" is even better. An aftermarket front frame with coil overs and rack n pinion will outhandle a thirdgen. Parts are cheap and readily available.

I've had a lot of thirdgens, and given the choice I'd rather build a street/strip car out of a 67-70 because you can do more for less.

I don't know what a 68 charger is like, but I've worked on and drove plenty of older nova's, vegas, mustangs and they all have pros and cons over things from the 1980s.

-- Joe

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

I agree with your statment, but... Back then I could have bought a bunch of chevelles, camaros, mustangs, chargers challengers in good condiditon for under a grand! Nobody knew they would be selling for more than a house, at least I didn't. The drive train was good on them, but the rest of the car was cheaply made. That's why people bought them. They sold for realatively cheap. I believe an iroc or any good third gen will be worth a lot more than a saturn vue in 10 years. They have been making gas sippers for a long time now and none of them are worth much at all. I don't believe corvettes were built any better than their camaro counter parts. They just had more fan fare and prestige.