cheveylover

well i have a simmilar stumbling problem and the timing is set the tps is set and mine doesnt smoke at all and i have to give it gas to start and keep it running, has anyone botherd tokchech the map sensor mine is an 86 tho... hoping i could find the prob by reading but idk fiel injection sucks donkey ****

cheveylover

wow sory guys about my spelling...

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

My plugs were jet black, I just recently pulled and cleaned them all. I will check my oil as well for a gasoline smell. (why would my oil have gas in it though ? )

As far as the timing goes, I will likely have to go with the whiteout pen idea.

Is the EST wire connected to the Dizzy? (I haven't checked yet, but don't remember seeing a brown wire in the area)

Toehead

If you a running with a stuck injector, the gas can get by the rings and dilute the oil, ruining the lubrication properties. If that has happened you'll see that the oil has a strong gas smell. If it does, just change the oil.

Toehead

The EST plug is right over the heaterbox /blower motor area going towards the dizzy. It will be stick out of the main loom, so that it is easy to unplug.

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

What is the possibility that either My MSD 6AL or the ACCEL Coil died ? How would I even test that if it were the case ? ( im reaching out for all possibilities right now, havent tried the timing yet, need to get a hold of the light)

... ok im cool now.

This all began with a fan problem one day, that seemingly killed my cars ability to start without feeding it gas whereas the day before it would start with just the ignition. At this point I started smoking excessively. Then on a night on the freeway, I started losing power and died (had to tow home). Then became a problem with mass fuel consumption (in which I replaced my AFPR diaphragm to no result). Sparks have been cleaned, O2 sensor replaced, TPS adjusted (new) ..... Hopefully someone will learn from my mistakes once this has been resolved.

Now on to timing,(new to me) , ICM (never pulled the dizzy before) , Dizzy (..just learned what Dizzy means) .... This has all been fun, but not having a job and needing to get to interviews, (and running out of money too) has made this a true test of my faith in God. (my abilities or worthless without him)

Quarter Miles and circle tracks are for tomorrow, I just need a functioning car.

(end Rant)

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

ok, your cooling fan is run off the ECM when it reads the coolant temp sensor is at a certain temp, it also trims the fuel values and such from it as well, did you replace it?

also take this for what it is but, I stopped believing a long time ago, I live day by day not spending time asking for things to happen and making them happen myself, Im unemployed, but i pull in as much as i need to get by and keep both my cars running off of my own skills.

5.SLOW

All of these replies and not one deals with the original smoking issue.

White smoke is water - Either condensation from sitting overnight (which should go away once the car warms up)

If its blowing white smoke after its warmed up then you need to figure out how your getting water in the exhaust.


Blue smoke is oil - Figure out why your getting oil in the cylinders (valve seals if its after it sits for awhile, rings if its while its running.)

Black smoke is fuel - Engine is running rich, figure out why you have excess fuel in the cylinders. theres more than enough about this in the past two pages.


If its misfiring and running like doo doo, AND your exhaust still has white smoke after the car is warmed up....you need to start checking things like headgaskets.


And on the edit: after reading your last couple posts....If you had an issue with the fans not kicking on, then the motor blowing white smoke...then quitting and having to be towed home....


I'd bet my last doughnut you overheated the car and blew a headgasket.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

the smoking is not an issue anymore apparently, also it was black, not white, and on top of that her would see coolant los if the head gaskets went south

5.SLOW

1. fan problem - no fans
2. white smoke - water
3. loss of power
4. rough idle


Im still putting my money on headgaskets.

If it was /my/ car....i would pull the plugs after letting it sit and see /exactly/ what is leaking into the cylinders - water or fuel - and then go from there.

Just because you have a blown head gasket doesnt mean the car cant run, or will be losing an extreme amount of coolant...and depending on where the gasket has failed....you may not see coolant in the oil, or vice-versa.


I believe he has some underlying electrical issues with the car running rich, but i'm almost certain the root cause of his rough idle is a blown head gasket.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Could be a head gasket and still drivable. been there done that with this thing....

Not only was the gasket shot. The head was cracked. Check out this video.
Drove it home this way. All I wanted was the chassis and vortech tpi setup.

uploading the video here. A MUST SEE so right click save as and check it out.
http://www.cecoatings.com/video/gotheadgasket.MPG

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

The problem with the fan I caught very quickly. it is wired to run constantly and once I saw the coolant temp rising above 190, I knew something was up. I am starting to doubt that its a timing issue as its not been changed in quite a while, and this all started at fan issue combined with white smoke. Im not going to rule out things like the head gaskets considering i was running it pretty hard before all of this happened.

I saw your vid, looks like your ride is barfing, my car does nothing like that all. I know the smell of burning coolant, so i know its not leaking coolant.

Toehead

You have already pulled your plugs correct?

If the headgasket was bad, one of the plugs would be white.

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

he had "white smoke" on start up, most likely condensation in the exhaust, my car does it for the first few minutes too. normal

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

bad valve seals could be a puff at start up too.

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

How would I bypass my MSD 6AL or better yet test it ?

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Ok, to answer my own question, this is how you test an MSD 6AL (or any msd ignition for that matter)

http://www.msdignition.com/page.aspx?id=3206

(don't hold the spark plug boot while conducting this test, else the results will be shocking)

The good news is that I have eliminated both the MSD ignition and my Accell coil as possibilities as they are both working properly.

My Distributor is functioning properly as well. I tested this with the screw driver in spark plug boot and they all arc'd as expected.

I am now starting to wonder if my spark plugs are hot enough. I am running AC Delco R44TS plugs currently. Does anyone have any insight on this ?

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

they would have ran like crap originally, your problem is not related to your plug heat range, your car was fine till it crapped out on the highway right? a bad catalytic converter can cause this, a senor going bad can cause this, a catastrophic failure such as blow head gasket or thrown rod, or lost compression can cause this, and a bad ECM can cause this, Run diagnostics on your car, if your ECM will not communicate with you then your ECM is most likely bad, check your compression, get a DVOM and test all of your sensor outputs. drop the cat and look inside and see if it's melted down, try running without the cat on and see if it make s difference, make sure all of your cylinders are firing. throwing parts and guesses at this car is only going to leave you without a car for a long time and waste more money.

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Right now, the car is not starting, for one of a few reasons, but what i did find is that when its attempting to fire, its only trying on the the third cylinder on the drivers side. ( this is the only header port getting hot) and this is also where the cold start injector is on the manifold. I am doubting this is a coincidence and even though I have pulled the power to the cold start injector, I am guessing that it is just leaking anyway. Would that be a fair assesment ?

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

no this would tell me your having problems with your injectors

5.SLOW

keep throwing money and time at it and maybe itll get fixed eventually.




Scan the car.

IF you have any codes, fix them first.

K.I.S.S. principle......Quit over thinking your problem and start at square one.....fuel, air, spark.



will the car run on alternate fuel? Have a friend spray a can of brake kleen down the throttle body while your starting it.

Narrow the problem to a certain system (Fuel or Spark in your case, since im assuming your intake and exhaust are free of restrictions) then start looking at tiny parts of the bigger system.

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Alright , back to basics.

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Found a crispied wire inside my ecm, and had the smell of electric burn. I found a replacement ECM at pep boys for 74.00 . Going to try it once my battery finishes charging.

transam85dudeman

i was driving this dudes Volkswagen, its a 1200cc 40hp, haha, i had it at 80 for over a half hour. haha. the oilpump failed, starving the engine of oil. the rod bearing and crank bearing failed, seizing the engine. haha. Im having to fix it now. the engine case is like 13 pounds. so tiny. it broke down, had to get it towed. my buddy was pissed. ahha. so anyways, its ready to be put together but i cant find 1200cc pistons, cylinders, and rods. well at least locally. I found them, but i just wanted to say, the highway is a biatch. kills everything. My T/A is still ok. knock on wood. ha

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Well my ECM is now responding to my scanner. Its not throwing any codes right now (because I have not tried to start the car yet). Thats a good thing.

I am also 'rebuilding my dizzy with a new pickup coil and ICM. Im having a hell of a time trying to get the dizzy back in however as its not lining up with the tab at the bottom the churns the oil pump.

Yes, I should have marked its location, but as it stood my timing was way off anyway. Much of this I am doing for the first time and like the experience. Just need to get this junk taken care of already.

just an update. Thanks for all who have posted thus far.

transam85dudeman

if you cant get it back in the dizzy hole, maybe your dizzy gear is installed upside down. line up the oil pump shaft in the hole with a long flat head screwdriver. its easy. if you cant install the dizzy, 9/10 times the gear is installed upside down.

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Yeah the gear was upside down.... live and learn! got a buddy who works at autozone, so im taking back all the parts and getting an accel dizzy (20 bucks more than all my parts combined)

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Ok, need a little clarification, I am trying to understand the differences between the $200 ACCEL Dizzy and the $300 + MSD models . I see pro-billet, street & strip , etc but can anyone explain the actual differences ?

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

accel always tends to be cheaper than MSD, I know MSD is good ***** though, id use MSD before accel

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Pep boys, Autozone and Oreilly's are all off their rocker when it comes to accel distributors. They all claimed that my 87 used the same accel part number 57019 (I think that was it) and they all kept trying to convince me that it was the correct one. This model they were trying to sell me was in HEI with a built in ignition coil and (I think) vacuum advance! I had to find the part number manually from the picture on the side of the box (had partial model number on it) and my brother searched for it on accel's website.
The whole thing was a load of foolishness... I didn't buy it ultimately. The one they were trying to sell me with the space on top for an ignition coil and the vacuum advance was only 119.99.... The model I actually need "Accel 60109" retails around 250 , and the MSD is closer to $300 so im just going to rebuild my existing dizzy instead....

good grief.. i've learned alot about my car since this thread started, but even more about myself. I definitely need to start relying on the 'Power of I and I" more than anyone else. Rebuilding the dizzy today, will post results..

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

I dont think the dizzy is going to do anything at all man

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Only reason i am doing the dizzy is because I had the ICM tested and it was bad intermittently. Will replace the whole dizzy another time. got it now, but now is the game of Timing... yaay...

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Anyone have any details on a Code 33? Finally got it to fire and pulled the codes. (Its not idling yet though, and I still need to give it gas in order to get it firing)

Also, how would it react if the CTS went bad?

transam85dudeman

dude, if it ain't starting its the oil pressure switch telling the relay circuit to the fuel pump not to fire. or like you said the Ignition control module was bad?--->sometimes the Ignition coil is shorty behind the ICM at failing. but another situation is a bad pickup coil, (not ignition coil) it would randomly miss fire the injectors. and if the tps is set at full WOT, it would cause the engine not to start due to flooding effect programmed in the ecm causing NO fuel to be added. BTW the code 33 is the MAF! Haynes manual reads the following: "code 33-->poor electrical connection, open or short in the circuit; defective MAF sensor; defective ECM".. That controls the injector pulse too. (maf, tps, pickupcoil) all affect injection pulsing. THE CTS, will ONLY be an issue if its running but hesitating because it affects the preprogrammed cold start default map (CTS, MAT, O2 sensor ) need to reach a certain Heat temp.-> to close the loop/circuit at the ecm to start reading off the other sensors and user input. they produce feedback to accurately (when warm) adjust fuel curve according to MAF variable voltage feedback. If your car doesn't start and at least run, (AIR, FUEL, SPARK.), Check the alignment with distributor's reference point rotor to #1 cylinder terminal as 0* timing mark on harmonic balancer to timing tab *6btdc or 0* reference point. TPS should be .54volts at idle with engine off but key on, the pickup coil (not ignition coil) resistance is between 500-1500ohms,

transam85dudeman

Hey dude, sorry thats not right. Theres three coolant sensors. (dash coolant sensor/sender drivers side of block by o2 sensor, 1 wire) (ecm coolant sensor thermistor front of block, two wire) (fan independent themo-switch sensor, on passenger side block below cylinders 6 and 8, above the knock sensor- one wire) peace

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Perhaps I should post an update on this situation. Please understand that I have done the best I know how to do, and I may have thrown a lot of unnecessary parts at it, and in hindsight I know many did not help. Nonetheless, this is everything that has been replaced.

ECM (had a crispied wire inside it)
TPS (adjusted to .54 closed, and 4+ at WOT)
O2 sensor
AFPR diaphragm
IAC (throttle body removed,entire setup cleaned along with new IAC)
Spark plugs (replace Delco R44TS with E3's)
ICM - (tested bad intermittently)
Pickup coil - (cheap so I replaced it while i had the dizzy out)
Oil (Having tried to crank it so many times, my oil was FULL of gas)
Fuel Relay -

I think thats it for parts.

I have done the following

Ohm'd injectors - all within tolerance (22lb ford injectors)
Disconnected the Cold Start injector - precaution
Set timing to TDC - (pull valve cover, hand crank to 0 on cylinder 1)
Checked all grounds - solid
Opened cutouts - (during this ordeal I was caught in a hail storm, and my car was slightly submerged, and was spitting water out the exhaust the next day. Cut outs opened due to a possibility that the cat was clogged)
Tested MSD box and confirmed I have spark at the 6AL
Plugged a spark plug into each wire and cranked confirming I was getting spark to the plugs.
Tested and adjusted fuel pressure - (lowered)
Did a leak down test with fuel pressure gauge on Schrader valve - (result is good)

Their are other things that have been done that I am forgetting. A note on the CTS, it was replaced recently (the one on the front of the block under the throttle body) when i installed my Dakota Digital gauges. I get temp readings in the car now as its directly wired to the control box but I realize that I my have tapped into the wrong CTS as i have read that this one is not for the gauges. Also my Scanner tells me that it reads the coolant temp around 25 degrees at start (going to check again today to see if it varies. Whatever its reading differs from whats on my gauges in the cabin so the ecm is likely reading the temp from a different sensor.

As it stands, I can get the car to fire, but only when I ive it gas as though it were carbed. I must keep it rev'd or otherwise it will die. I just set the timing to TDC last night and got it to fire, yet it still needs to be timed. This is difficult when i can't keep it running however...

So thats the story for the moment... any suggestions on why I need to WOT it in order to get it running ( i understand that doing so is not actually giving it gas) and why it doesn't idle ?

Thanks for all the help thus far, its been a great learning experience.

HCR13

iTrader: (5)

unplug the maf and see if it runs smooths or atleast idles then...

Chevy8588

iTrader: (1)

I agree with HCR13, unplug the MAF and see if there's a change, also, through his whole ordeal, have you checked ALL of your grounds? compression tested the motor? also transam85dudeman, you are very correct on a 1985 TPI engine you have three sensors, 1 for the guage, 1 to tell the ECM coolant temp, and 1 to control your SINGLE fan. on an 87 TPI engine you have 3 as well, one for the guages, 1 to report to the ECM the temp, and one on the water jacket to contron the AUXILLARY fan in case coolant temperatures exceed 235 degrees. the primary fan is controlled by the ECM based off of data from the CTS in the front of the intake manifold. 87 TPI's have dual fans................ One thing I HAVE seen, and this all depends on weatehr or not one of these made it into your car, I rememebr for a while on the SBC motors GM used cam gears on some of them that had plastic teeth on them, and they would crack and shift and ulitmately set the valve timing off. not sure if they were still using them in 87.

89L98IROCZ

Just read this 6 year old tread... kind of curious how the story ended.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

89L98IROCZ..Yeah, that happens a lot. It's like reading a good book and it ends with you hanging saying "WTH??"