A timing/spark no-start gremlin
10-14-2009, 03:02 PM
#1
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Car: 92 RS
Engine: a slow one
Transmission: a crunchy one
Axle/Gears: a whiny one
A timing/spark no-start gremlin
92 RS w/3.1 and a T-5 w/130k on the clock
New battery
New positive and ground cable
New starter/all wiring for it
It was on E when I drove it to the store other night, next morning the wife couldn't start it so I thought "no gas". Put about 4 gallons of gas in it and still got a no start situation here.
So I'm poking around, and cap and rotor is good, tap my ICM a couple times and put some new dialectric on it. All back together, nothing.
So I check the schrader valve on the rail and bleed a little air. Still nothing. I hook up a fuel pressure gauge and got a bump up to 42psi with the key in RUN then it levels off at 40psi everytime. Fuel is there, pressure is good. After turning over for awhile it's spitting fuel out of the throttle body, so fuel is THERE!
So I unplug the EST wire like I'm going to time it, and all of a sudden it fires, but is running HORRIBLY. Like it's missing or barely getting fuel or air... But I suspect weak spark because I know it's getting fuel and air is there of course. But now the batteries dead from all the cranking, so I can't check. I'm charging the battery as we speak, and am going to go at it some more when it's done. My knock sensor connector is messed up and falls off sometimes, but it always starts and runs (like a turd) even when unplugged, so that's not it.
It seems obviously to be something controlling my timing or spark, what sensor could this be? Anybody seen anything like this that is a common headache on these cars? Any suggestions?
New battery
New positive and ground cable
New starter/all wiring for it
It was on E when I drove it to the store other night, next morning the wife couldn't start it so I thought "no gas". Put about 4 gallons of gas in it and still got a no start situation here.
So I'm poking around, and cap and rotor is good, tap my ICM a couple times and put some new dialectric on it. All back together, nothing.
So I check the schrader valve on the rail and bleed a little air. Still nothing. I hook up a fuel pressure gauge and got a bump up to 42psi with the key in RUN then it levels off at 40psi everytime. Fuel is there, pressure is good. After turning over for awhile it's spitting fuel out of the throttle body, so fuel is THERE!
So I unplug the EST wire like I'm going to time it, and all of a sudden it fires, but is running HORRIBLY. Like it's missing or barely getting fuel or air... But I suspect weak spark because I know it's getting fuel and air is there of course. But now the batteries dead from all the cranking, so I can't check. I'm charging the battery as we speak, and am going to go at it some more when it's done. My knock sensor connector is messed up and falls off sometimes, but it always starts and runs (like a turd) even when unplugged, so that's not it.
It seems obviously to be something controlling my timing or spark, what sensor could this be? Anybody seen anything like this that is a common headache on these cars? Any suggestions?
10-15-2009, 10:23 AM
#2
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Car: LOWERED ♦ CRIMSON METALFLAKE
Engine: ► 400 KUBES ◄
Transmission: 765R4
Axle/Gears: EATON POSI 4.56
Coil Toil
Replace the pickup coil in the distributor.
◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙
Happy Racing!
◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙
If People Drove Any Slower They’d Be Going Backwards
Fog lights are not driving lights. They look doofy. Turn em off slow pokes.
How bout those nervous nellies too scared to drive without headlights on in the daytime or if there is a little rain!
.
.
◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙
Happy Racing!
◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙
If People Drove Any Slower They’d Be Going BackwardsFog lights are not driving lights. They look doofy. Turn em off slow pokes.
How bout those nervous nellies too scared to drive without headlights on in the daytime or if there is a little rain!
.
.
10-15-2009, 06:02 PM
#3
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Car: 92 RS
Engine: a slow one
Transmission: a crunchy one
Axle/Gears: a whiny one
Re: Coil Toil
Replace the pickup coil in the distributor.
◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙
Happy Racing!
◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙
If People Drove Any Slower They’d Be Going Backwards
Fog lights are not driving lights. They look doofy. Turn em off slow pokes.
How bout those nervous nellies too scared to drive without headlights on in the daytime or if there is a little rain!
.
.
◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙
Happy Racing!
◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙◙
If People Drove Any Slower They’d Be Going BackwardsFog lights are not driving lights. They look doofy. Turn em off slow pokes.
How bout those nervous nellies too scared to drive without headlights on in the daytime or if there is a little rain!
.
.
10-16-2009, 03:05 AM
#4
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Car: 88' IROCZ
Engine: 388 TPI Motown 350 Race block
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 2.77
Re: A timing/spark no-start gremlin
92 RS w/3.1 and a T-5 w/130k on the clock
New battery
New positive and ground cable
New starter/all wiring for it
It was on E when I drove it to the store other night, next morning the wife couldn't start it so I thought "no gas". Put about 4 gallons of gas in it and still got a no start situation here.
The coil can be easily tested without removing it. Disconnect both connectors connect a spark tester on the HV wire to ground. use jumper wires to connector on side of the gray connector to ground and the other momentarily to 12v. If the coil is good it'll spark every time you tap the wire to 12v.
So I'm poking around, and cap and rotor is good, tap my ICM a couple times and put some new dialectric on it. All back together, nothing.
So I check the schrader valve on the rail and bleed a little air. Still nothing. I hook up a fuel pressure gauge and got a bump up to 42psi with the key in RUN then it levels off at 40psi everytime. Fuel is there, pressure is good. After turning over for awhile it's spitting fuel out of the throttle body, so fuel is THERE!
So I unplug the EST wire like I'm going to time it, and all of a sudden it fires, but is running HORRIBLY. Like it's missing or barely getting fuel or air... But I suspect weak spark because I know it's getting fuel and air is there of course. But now the batteries dead from all the cranking, so I can't check. I'm charging the battery as we speak, and am going to go at it some more when it's done. My knock sensor connector is messed up and falls off sometimes, but it always starts and runs (like a turd) even when unplugged, so that's not it.
It seems obviously to be something controlling my timing or spark, what sensor could this be? Anybody seen anything like this that is a common headache on these cars? Any suggestions?
New battery
New positive and ground cable
New starter/all wiring for it
It was on E when I drove it to the store other night, next morning the wife couldn't start it so I thought "no gas". Put about 4 gallons of gas in it and still got a no start situation here.
The coil can be easily tested without removing it. Disconnect both connectors connect a spark tester on the HV wire to ground. use jumper wires to connector on side of the gray connector to ground and the other momentarily to 12v. If the coil is good it'll spark every time you tap the wire to 12v.
So I'm poking around, and cap and rotor is good, tap my ICM a couple times and put some new dialectric on it. All back together, nothing.
So I check the schrader valve on the rail and bleed a little air. Still nothing. I hook up a fuel pressure gauge and got a bump up to 42psi with the key in RUN then it levels off at 40psi everytime. Fuel is there, pressure is good. After turning over for awhile it's spitting fuel out of the throttle body, so fuel is THERE!
So I unplug the EST wire like I'm going to time it, and all of a sudden it fires, but is running HORRIBLY. Like it's missing or barely getting fuel or air... But I suspect weak spark because I know it's getting fuel and air is there of course. But now the batteries dead from all the cranking, so I can't check. I'm charging the battery as we speak, and am going to go at it some more when it's done. My knock sensor connector is messed up and falls off sometimes, but it always starts and runs (like a turd) even when unplugged, so that's not it.
It seems obviously to be something controlling my timing or spark, what sensor could this be? Anybody seen anything like this that is a common headache on these cars? Any suggestions?
On some models the ALDL is put in diagnostic mode to bypass the EST, on some the 4-wire EST connector is disconnected, on others an easily accessible single quick disconnect which is called a "Set Timing Connector" is used to disconnect the Tan w/white stripe wire of the 4-wire EST connector. I doubt whether this holds true for all later gens, but I don't know as I'm not familiar with them.
Last edited by rgarcia63; 10-16-2009 at 03:11 AM.
10-17-2009, 01:25 PM
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Car: 92 RS
Engine: a slow one
Transmission: a crunchy one
Axle/Gears: a whiny one
Re: A timing/spark no-start gremlin
If I'm not mistaken, there is no 1-wire EST connector, EST (Electronic Spark Timing) refers to the section of the ignition module that uses 4 wires to connect to the ECM.
On some models the ALDL is put in diagnostic mode to bypass the EST, on some the 4-wire EST connector is disconnected, on others an easily accessible single quick disconnect which is called a "Set Timing Connector" is used to disconnect the Tan w/white stripe wire of the 4-wire EST connector. I doubt whether this holds true for all later gens, but I don't know as I'm not familiar with them.
On some models the ALDL is put in diagnostic mode to bypass the EST, on some the 4-wire EST connector is disconnected, on others an easily accessible single quick disconnect which is called a "Set Timing Connector" is used to disconnect the Tan w/white stripe wire of the 4-wire EST connector. I doubt whether this holds true for all later gens, but I don't know as I'm not familiar with them.
10-17-2009, 03:54 PM
#6
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Car: 88' IROCZ
Engine: 388 TPI Motown 350 Race block
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 2.77
Re: A timing/spark no-start gremlin
If that's what you think I intended to do I apologize.
The distinction was made for the caution of others who maybe working on the same thing. If they disconnect the EST and the engine does't start they'll be pulling their hair out trying to figure why it works for you and not them.
The name is not the issue it's the fact there's is a an EST and a Set Timing Connector,you may have both and depending on the model disconnecting the EST will disable the injectors if the ECM doesn't receive the Distributor reference signal from the EST circuit.
The distinction was made for the caution of others who maybe working on the same thing. If they disconnect the EST and the engine does't start they'll be pulling their hair out trying to figure why it works for you and not them.
The name is not the issue it's the fact there's is a an EST and a Set Timing Connector,you may have both and depending on the model disconnecting the EST will disable the injectors if the ECM doesn't receive the Distributor reference signal from the EST circuit.
10-19-2009, 05:28 PM
#7
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Car: 92 RS
Engine: a slow one
Transmission: a crunchy one
Axle/Gears: a whiny one
Re: A timing/spark no-start gremlin
I got my distributor out today and found that the top pole piece (thats spins inside the pickups that sit above the pickup coil) was wobbly and hitting some of the pickups on the bottom half. After removing the roll pin and trying to pull it out through the top I realized the problem was that my center shaft was slightly bent!
I ran a voltmeter through my pickup coil like per Haynes instructions and it failed every test (and looks like garbage too) so I have no doubt you guys are right, but now I have to change my whole distributor due to this bent business...
I don't understand what could have done that? I plan on going to the wreckers to grab another one and put my new pickup coil (might as well) on it. Should I use the gear that came off my old distributor (actually looks really good and has no abnormal wear) or should I buy a new gear?
Good to go then rgarcia, sorry about misunderstanding and being so defensive. I've been posting on several boards about my truck and my Camaro lately, and everywhere I go there are people just trolling threads to start arguments and ruin the thread everytime. I understand it's the internet and there will always be that aspect... But it's getting annoying. Please forgive my outburst.
I ran a voltmeter through my pickup coil like per Haynes instructions and it failed every test (and looks like garbage too) so I have no doubt you guys are right, but now I have to change my whole distributor due to this bent business...
I don't understand what could have done that? I plan on going to the wreckers to grab another one and put my new pickup coil (might as well) on it. Should I use the gear that came off my old distributor (actually looks really good and has no abnormal wear) or should I buy a new gear?
If that's what you think I intended to do I apologize.
The distinction was made for the caution of others who maybe working on the same thing. If they disconnect the EST and the engine does't start they'll be pulling their hair out trying to figure why it works for you and not them.
The name is not the issue it's the fact there's is a an EST and a Set Timing Connector,you may have both and depending on the model disconnecting the EST will disable the injectors if the ECM doesn't receive the Distributor reference signal from the EST circuit.
The distinction was made for the caution of others who maybe working on the same thing. If they disconnect the EST and the engine does't start they'll be pulling their hair out trying to figure why it works for you and not them.
The name is not the issue it's the fact there's is a an EST and a Set Timing Connector,you may have both and depending on the model disconnecting the EST will disable the injectors if the ECM doesn't receive the Distributor reference signal from the EST circuit.
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10-19-2009, 05:56 PM
#8
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Car: 88' IROCZ
Engine: 388 TPI Motown 350 Race block
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 2.77
Re: A timing/spark no-start gremlin
...I realized the problem was that my center shaft was slightly bent!
... I don't understand what could have done that? I plan on going to the wreckers to grab another one and put my new pickup coil (might as well) on it. Should I use the gear that came off my old distributor (actually looks really good and has no abnormal wear) or should I buy a new gear?
Good to go then rgarcia, sorry about misunderstanding and being so defensive. I've been posting on several boards about my truck and my Camaro lately, and everywhere I go there are people just trolling threads to start arguments and ruin the thread everytime. I understand it's the internet and there will always be that aspect... But it's getting annoying. Please forgive my outburst.
... I don't understand what could have done that? I plan on going to the wreckers to grab another one and put my new pickup coil (might as well) on it. Should I use the gear that came off my old distributor (actually looks really good and has no abnormal wear) or should I buy a new gear?
Good to go then rgarcia, sorry about misunderstanding and being so defensive. I've been posting on several boards about my truck and my Camaro lately, and everywhere I go there are people just trolling threads to start arguments and ruin the thread everytime. I understand it's the internet and there will always be that aspect... But it's getting annoying. Please forgive my outburst.
If the shaft is bent I would not use the gear.
As for the bent shaft it's possible a change in Dizzy, Intake, and or Head milling may have caused it.
The Dizzy shouldn't bottom out. Once you drop it in an engage the oil pump shaft it should (without the gasket ) sit flush with the intake surface if it doesn't you'll need a shim.
I also have a truck - Chevy 86' Silverado 305 auto.
10-19-2009, 06:24 PM
#9
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Car: 92 RS
Engine: a slow one
Transmission: a crunchy one
Axle/Gears: a whiny one
Re: A timing/spark no-start gremlin
Actually, after inspecting closer I'm not sure the shaft is bent anymore. I think it's just really hard to get out for some reason, any insight on this?
The car ran fine, and they just died. It hasn't had any major topend work besides an intake gasket about 5 years ago. But it's had 25k miles since then with no problem.
The pickup coil is definitely bad, I don't know why this damn center shaft won't just pull out! Once the bottom is in the dizzy body, it gets incredibly hard to pull. I don't want to pry or anything in fear of ruining it, and I don't want to buy a 200 dollar distributor for my daily parts runner that I want a new motor for anyways... I just wanted it running right now so I could pull the front axle in my truck and go to the wreckers to match another one for it damnit!
garcia: Gotta love Chevy trucks! I drive a 77 GMC Jimmy (Chevy Blazer) 4x4 with a 4" procomp lift with 35" M/T's and pro comp shocks all around. It has a 400sbc with a th350+B&M shift kit and a np203 t-case with a part-time kit (just pulled a bulletproof np205 last Sunday to put in it just need correct driveshafts). Honestly I been a little obsessed with trying to upgrade and work on my truck and I need my Camaro running again so I can pull my truck apart and still have a driver! lol
The car ran fine, and they just died. It hasn't had any major topend work besides an intake gasket about 5 years ago. But it's had 25k miles since then with no problem.
The pickup coil is definitely bad, I don't know why this damn center shaft won't just pull out! Once the bottom is in the dizzy body, it gets incredibly hard to pull. I don't want to pry or anything in fear of ruining it, and I don't want to buy a 200 dollar distributor for my daily parts runner that I want a new motor for anyways... I just wanted it running right now so I could pull the front axle in my truck and go to the wreckers to match another one for it damnit!
garcia: Gotta love Chevy trucks! I drive a 77 GMC Jimmy (Chevy Blazer) 4x4 with a 4" procomp lift with 35" M/T's and pro comp shocks all around. It has a 400sbc with a th350+B&M shift kit and a np203 t-case with a part-time kit (just pulled a bulletproof np205 last Sunday to put in it just need correct driveshafts). Honestly I been a little obsessed with trying to upgrade and work on my truck and I need my Camaro running again so I can pull my truck apart and still have a driver! lol
10-19-2009, 09:49 PM
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Car: 88' IROCZ
Engine: 388 TPI Motown 350 Race block
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 2.77
Re: A timing/spark no-start gremlin
Bro, if you weren't so far away I'd lend you my truck.
On my car disabling the ECM and putting the Timing light on it and revving up 2k should keep the timing stable if it jumps around it's something in the dizzy causing it.
The dizzy still sounds bend to me. I wouldn't waste my time with that one.
You'll still need a coil so you might as well go to a pick/pull-a-part and get both for less. Since it's a backup car I would put prime money in to it.
Your call.
On my car disabling the ECM and putting the Timing light on it and revving up 2k should keep the timing stable if it jumps around it's something in the dizzy causing it.
The dizzy still sounds bend to me. I wouldn't waste my time with that one.
You'll still need a coil so you might as well go to a pick/pull-a-part and get both for less. Since it's a backup car I would put prime money in to it.
Your call.
10-19-2009, 11:11 PM
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Car: 92 RS
Engine: a slow one
Transmission: a crunchy one
Axle/Gears: a whiny one
Re: A timing/spark no-start gremlin
You're right. I wasn't trusting how that thing was turning or was seized up on it's way out, so I bought a whole new lifetime replacement warranty dizzy. Kragen had one for 120 with replacement module and coil included, not a bad deal if you ask me.
I stabbed it as close as I could to the old one but it still ended up being a bit off (it seemed clocked a little differently with the new style internals) so I had to rotate it quite a bit to get it started. Timing is still off by alot, so it has no power in gear, but idles fine at least. It was too dark to continue so I went and bought a timing light to continue in the morning. Then I'll re-stab the dizzy to point at #1 plug wire after setting the motor to TDC#1 and just do it right like I should have the first time. Was hoping I could shortcut it and get it done before dark though lol.
I stabbed it as close as I could to the old one but it still ended up being a bit off (it seemed clocked a little differently with the new style internals) so I had to rotate it quite a bit to get it started. Timing is still off by alot, so it has no power in gear, but idles fine at least. It was too dark to continue so I went and bought a timing light to continue in the morning. Then I'll re-stab the dizzy to point at #1 plug wire after setting the motor to TDC#1 and just do it right like I should have the first time. Was hoping I could shortcut it and get it done before dark though lol.
10-02-2013, 04:23 PM
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Car: 92 RS
Engine: a slow one
Transmission: a crunchy one
Axle/Gears: a whiny one
Re: A timing/spark no-start gremlin
Super late update - BTW that went beautifully the next day and she ran like a champ until recently
Edit - Although I did have to change the coil out a day later and I kept thinking it was my dizzy install so it took all day to track down, lol
Edit - Although I did have to change the coil out a day later and I kept thinking it was my dizzy install so it took all day to track down, lol
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