I know that this has been discussed a time or four, but I am looking for a little input if anyone is so inclined. I recently put a transmission in and got the car "running". It wasn't running well after not running for about 3 years. Changed spark plugs, cap and rotor, and put an Accel coil in, optima red top battery, and added a little race fuel for more pep but it was running a little crappy. Fired it up and was going to go for a ride with the family, noticed that the voltmeter was jumping from about 14v to 18v and then it just shut off...found that one of the fuseable links at the starter was burnt clean off, replaced the fuseable link and now it won't start...cranks, but no start. I checked all of the wiring to check for anything else that might be fried, but nothing visible...I was thinking that I might need an ignition module, but I need an extra set of hands to crank while checking for spark...any ideas?

 

Personally where i would start is by spraying some starter fluid in the throttle body and then crank it. If it starts for a short period of time you have a fuel issue if it dosnt you have an ignition issue most likely. Doing this test would be a good start to narrow things down a bit.

 

Going to try that in a bit with another set of hands...there's just something about shooting starting fluid into an 85 motor with 23k on the ticker. Thanks for the input, I'll post with what I find out.

 

Ok, so after another long and frustrating day of absolutely NOTHING, I am at wits end with this car...I know I need more patience. I've tried shooting some starting fluid, checked for good spark(which it has), checked for fuel pressure(40psi), and gone over and over the wiring for the firing order...18436572, going clockwise starting from drivers side front as #1. I am thinking that the MAF might be to blame, being that it's original. Is there anyway to "delete" the MAF? I have left it unplugged in the past and it caused a no start issue. I know it shouldn't matter where #1 "starts" on the distributor as long as you follow the firing order and #1 is where the rotor is at when you're at TDC. Any other ideas? Help is greatly appreciated at this point, this is my only car that is "streetable" and "kid friendly" at this time. Just received ownership today of a 79 Z28 with a 502...not exactly "kid friendly".

 

OK well if you've shot some starter fluid in it and it still wouldn't pop yet you have good spark a few things I would try. First though if you suspect the MAF is bad if you disconnect it the ECM will detect the fault and run off of pre programmed default values that should be good enough to allow it to run though not particularly well. Next thing I would do is pull the spark plugs (at least a couple) and see if they have been fowled. If they are saturated with carbon or gas it will short out the spark and obviously not fire. Another thing I would try is disconnect the EST bypass connector in case the ECM is trying to adjust the timing outside of what will allow it to start. This will disable the ECMs control of the ignition timing and the base timing should be close enough again to allow the car to start. Also though im sure you probably already know you are correct about the fact that the distributor should be roughly pointed to cylinder #1 at TDC however if you've adjusted the distributor remember to make sure its TDC #1 on the compression stroke not the exhaust stroke. Again im sure you probably already know that but I would hate to have you troubleshooting this issue for a week only to discover the distributor was 180 degrees out. Im also kind of curious about the IAC motor.

 

#1 is at TDC compression stroke, checked it during my numerous rewires while I was going insane. Disconnected the MAF, got nothing still. Going now to pull EST bypass and see what happens. The plugs are brand new as of about an hour ago, after all of the cranking they were not as wet as I would have thought them to be, however you can smell the fuel and there's good pressure, the ones pulled out had a lot of carbon on them...probably from the 110 Torco in the tank...about 2 wks old. Will be back in a few to post findings.

 

No dice on the EST Bypass...tried resetting the timing again, set it to TDC #1 on the compression stroke. Everything as far as the wiring and the rotor location still looked the same. Any other suggestions?

 

Well one thing I do want to say is if you set the timing by pointing the rotor directly at cylinder 1's post on the distributor it may be to far retarded to start I would try to advance it a few degrees especially if the motor sounds like its cranking unusually fast. Next thing I would check is for the injector pulse. We want to make sure that its firing the injectors properly not just spraying them constantly or something strange like that. For this you would need a noid light as a regular test light would not respond fast enough to show it actually flicker it would more likely just glow dimly. You could probably even get away with using a volt meter if you had an older style analog meter.

 

Oh and also ohm out you injectors they may not have liked having 18 v applied to them.

 

Yea and one other thing I promise this time its the last thing I forgot to mention haha. I wonder if the motor isnt getting flooded and thats why despite having spark and fuel it still refuses to even pop. Im curious if you disconnected all the injectors (which should eliminate the being flooded as a possibility at least if its the fault of the electronics) and then hit it with starter fluid when cranking if it would try to fire then. You can also try holding the throttle open a small amount while cranking again kind of suspecting if the IAC motor didnt take a hit.

 

Ok...Checked all of the injectors, pulse-width is where it should be for a stock set up. Checked ohms on all of the injectors, 16.3 is low, 16.6 is high...good thing I found that old Snap-On Vantage scanner. I thought that I might have it 180 deg. off so I pulled the cap AGAIN, and pulled the valve cover to make sure I was on the compression stroke...just for s-n-g I put #1 where I thought it needed to go, set initial to like 6 deg advance and tried it...sounded like it wanted to fire and then nothing again. I guess at this point I'm just going to have to wait until next week to get at it.

 

Still tinkering away...got spark all the way around now. Seems like she's flooding out, any ideas? FPR or IAC? How would I check to see if they are bad?

 

Well screw it, replaced the IAC and Ign. Module. It's a timing issue I know it, just need to know if it's the chain or computer doing it...Ideas?

 

Yea I kind of agree assuming the timing is correct if it has fuel and strong spark because it dosnt it leads me to believe its getting flooded. Just the fact you had spark and didnt even pop with starter fluid made me have to wonder. However if you think its a timing problem disconnecting the EST bypass line removes all computer control of the timing. This means the timing will be static at whatever the base timing is. From there you can tinker around with the timing you should be able to get it to start if your timing was the issue. I doubt its the timing chain thoes things pretty much last forever and if it were to go off a few teeth the ignition timing could still be set to be correct but the cam would be out of sync which could cause a whole new set of issues. However again I think its unlikely.

 

I'll have to get at it in a few days...work, work, work...hopefully the cylinders will be nice and dry by the time I get back. Oh, while I'm thinking of it...my wife trashed my haynes manual... does anyone have the wiring schematic for the 85 lb9 knock sensor? I may have to rewire it...noticed that it wasn't plugged in and I couldn't find the connector for it, I may have to wire it in...or not if I can bypass it.

RT, I may have to send you some pics when I get back...the kid that had this before me didn't know his @55 from a hole in the ground...gutted the a/c and a.i.r. and I don't really know what's supposed to be hooked up where...ie, vacuum lines and correct wiring locations, was a smart turd at least with the dual flexalite fan setup.

 

Sure when you get out there if you want a snap a few pics and send them too me I can at least try to sort things out haha. I know how it is getting into a "reworked" car and how much fun that can be. I do happen to have the factory manual for the 85 camaro so it should have any info you could possibly want so if you need anything ill see what i can dig up. The vacuum routing in theory should be on the bottom of the hood though unless someone removed it.

 

Why does everyone use those words..."in theory"? J/K...the routing is there, however as I said, the PO removed a few things prior to me getting the car, i.e., there's a bolt stuck in the lower line on the (as you're looking from front to rear) left side lower port of the T.B., and there's a line going to the vacuum cannister looping underneath the T.B. from upper port left side T.B. ...what else...only 1 line going to PCV...nothing going to the other valve cover as I heard it was supposed to be.

Just looking for clarification...if there's anyone with A/C, and A.I.R. delete and wouldn't mind sending a few pics my way I would appreciate it.

 

Yea dosnt sound too too bad though. The vacuum line with the bolt in the TB I believe if im not mistaken is what was supposed to connect to the valve cover on the passenger side. The seconds part is a little confusing to me though so im not quite sure. Also if you PM me your email address I can send you out a schematic of the ESC circuit.

 

RT, PM your way in 3...2... ...oh, it's probably there by now.

 

Should be in your in box shortly.

 

I apologize...I was thinking something ignorant and redundant just now and posted this instead

 

Its quite alright no worries.

 

Try a set of brand new plugs, even the cheap 1 dollar ea autolites. if there extremly wet/black, like they been soaked in fuel, thats prolly your gremlin. this happens alot with flooded efi cars, especially on race gas, btw leaded or unleaded?

 

How's the oil pressure? There's a cut off switch there too. And buy a whole bunch of cheap plugs, you'll need them.

 

TTROC1, 110 Torco...and I have about a case of various plugs(10 sets of 8)

IP, Oil pressure is good before the goofy crap it was at about 30-40psi at idle on gauge. No idea what it is now...something to check when I get home

 

the oil pressure should not be an issue since the fuel psi is ok, 2nd yo said you have injector pulse, so for now pcm, vats if u have is ok..main things air,fuel, spark, timing, compression, in that order. after it starts running, you may have more problems cuz of the 18 volts

 

fresh plugs!!!

 

no VATS that I know of on this car...however the PO decided to delete a few things...like A/C and A.I.R. So now I just have to figure out which wires I can delete and which need to stay for different things...just wish I could find that knock sensor harness...I may have to wire one in

 

OOPS that's right. I was posting from my phone and missed where he had fuel pressure. Hard to read on a small screen.

Sorry...my mistake.

 

So I set it all up again...this time to 4 deg adv. disconnected est bypass and the car sounds like it wants to fire on the first jump and then doesnt stay going...the cars been sitting for a few days so the plugs all look clean and dry...ideas?

 

did u put in new plugs? if so take the coil wire and move half 1/4 inch further away, dont get shocked, and try crankin it over it should fire up, basicly youll be hovering the coil wire over the coil/or dist cap

 

No coil wire...hei dist, 305tpi

 

Personally I think you may want to advance the timing a bit but im a little confused. When you say it trys to start do you mean like when you first crank it it will try to start and then just die out? Or just that it tries to fire but just cant quite do it? Or are you saying it does start then stall immediately?

 

oh, didnt see u had an 85, try loosening your dist and rotating it slightly as somone cranks it, listen for the moments where it "tries to start", if it fires up from there u can set the base timing etc, dont rotate the dist too much, like 3-4 degrees in any direction max. also dont get shocked!

 

When I crank the car over it sounds like the first 2 cyl are catching and then goes to nothing, just like if you were cranking and there was nothing there or like if your timing was off a lot. I wonder if I jumped chain, but I would think that I would hear that when it happened right? There's a guy that's local and parting out about 11 3rd gen's so I'm going to head over there in a few to pick up some body parts and maybe an ecm if he has it...I disconnected the EST bypass to set the timing, but I think that something else got hit when I had the voltage spike...is there a check I can run on the ecm to make sure that it's still good? I just wonder if the ecm got hit because I can't get my tech1 or snap-on brick scanner to pick it up, key on:car off, never had a problem before.

 

not sure if ur year has this but did you check the "ecm" fuse about 10 inches away from the battery...just a thought. i think your ecm might be ok, it getting inj pulse. if u wanna check the chain turn the crak and watch the dist rotor, if there is a delay, chain may have skipped, at that point youll have to move th crank to tdc on#1 check that the rotor is at number 1 dist cap position.

not 100% sure its tdc...maybe 5*before after, i forgot when the ignition event occurs...fml...can somone else chime in

 

Well I really doubt you jumped a chain they are pretty durable. Not to mention to cause a complete no start condition it would have to just a good few teeth on top of it. Im really curious to know if its getting flooded. Maybe the cold start injector isnt turning off or something. I mean taking a step back from a moment to analyze whats happened so far you sprayed starter fluid in the TB and it didnt start. This tells me either your ignition system has a fault (most likely) or its getting flooded. However you went on to say you have good spark correct timing and the plugs were changed with no effect. Either something has been overlooked or its getting flooded. Now you bring up the ECM its possible its bad it probably didn't like seeing 18 V applied to it. As far as testing goes its pretty much limited to testing by replacement. Not to bad though as even remanned ECMs for these cars are pretty cheap. However might be a little tricky as 85 tpi electronics are unique to that year. I do think that the issue of not being able to connect to the ECM is something that should be looked into though. If you just jump the 2 diagnostic pins together will it flash out a code? One last thing should you decide to replace the ECM I would deffinetly consider removing the alternator from the system (in addition to ohming out all your relays and solenoids ect) because you dont want your new to you ECM getting fried.

 

rolling ive seen a few jump, hi mileage ofc, but the turn the crank watch the rotor trick usually will show that, and some will start, but will have drive issues.

one more trick, try starting it like this, foot down on the throttle all the way, then after you crank for a sec, pop the throttle as your still cranking, if you hear it try to start, your definatly still in a flood conditiom.

also since you got a brick, check your tps and cts outputs, if the tps is stuck at wot voltage, she wont start...if the cts is at -49 or 299 or whater min/max values at it will give probs

 

so where I'm at now... I found the knock sensor wire...don't know what the idiot PO thought he was doing. There's no connector for it...what does it do for the ecm, I know it detects detonation. I now have lost consistant spark, the fuel pump only turns on ever few key turns, the check engine light does not turn on and I can't get codes...pretty much thinking the ecm is done for, hopefully someone has one here in MI, otherwise the gen 4 is getting the ls1 tomorrow

 

Sounds like he is getting fuel. He said the spark is there. Not sure if it is correct though.

Have you checked the maf power relay?

 

The knock sensor is read by the ESC module the module puts out a signal that the ECM reads. When the ESC module sends a signal that a knock has been detected the ECM will retard the timing. That is the full extent of what the ECM does with the knock sensor. Now if you do not have consistent spark thats all independent of the ECM (aside from the timing). The fuel pump should also run even if the ECM was dead via the oil pressure switch. The fact you cannot read codes may be a bad ECM but it sounds like there are other problems.

 

Could the battery be getting weak from testing? My fuel pump doesn't run every turn of the key. I figured, pressure is still built up in the line.

 

Yea this is true. I dont recall the exact conditions but the ECM will trigger the fuel pump when you first put the key into the run position and then stop once its primed. Then after then when it starts it will turn on again or if it dosnt start and its allowed to sit for some time ect the ECM will re-trigger the fuel pump. Basically it will not just stay on all the time just because they keys in the run position (unless the car is running) and it will not necessarily trigger every time the key is put in the run position.

 

it real doesnt take much to get these car running, you said you have inj pulse, so thats really all the motor needs, from the ecm for an ignition event. did you check the fuse by the battery

 

I was looking for the fuse by the battery...the PO did some "creative" removal of some wiring before I got the car. A little back story on the car, the PO was going to take the stock motor out and replace with a 383 stroker. He then decided that it was too costly (or he was just too retarded). He put the 305 TPI back in the car and remove the A.I.R. and A/C to "free up some horsepower"...when I got the car the firing order was off causing the car to act like it had an aggressive cam and run rough. I had the car for approx 6 months and the trans literally exploded internally...the car sat for almost 2 1/2 years this way not being driven. I put a 700R4 from an 87 T/A into the car a few weeks ago. I got the car fired up and got the trans tuned for the car (kick down cable, shift linkage). The car was acting a little odd, revving high and low, which I took as the idle relearn from the ECM since the car had been "dead" for almost 3 years. I brought it home and let it sit for a week or so and fired it up in the driveway every couple of days just to check it. We had a nice day and I thought about taking the family for a drive. We got about a mile from the house and I noticed that the volt meter was jumping between about 14vdc and 18vdc. Then the car just shut off, nada...no acc. power, I looked for an electrical fault and saw that one of the fuseable links at the starter was fried clean off...replaced it and got my acc power back. I tried starting the car and then we go to the beginning of this thread. I've replaced the cap, rotor, coil, plugs, plug wires, Ign. control mod, and IAC...the only thing left that I can think of is the ECM and ESC mod. I found a Haynes manual, but it is limited on just the TPI, useful still, just limited to my tastes. I'm going to go get another set of plugs here in a bit to make sure that they're good...I do have to throw the charger on it...I'll check for inj pulse again when it's charged. My biggest difficulty is that I'm trying to do all of this by myself so if I could split myself in 2 to crank and test that would be great.

 

dam, sob should started, see if wifey can give you a hand checking

 

Going to get at it tomorrow, got new plugs again...pulled the old ones and they were fouled out with fuel. Battery is weak, gotta wait for it to charge and get at it when it's good, I wonder if the battery voltage had anything to do with the ECM not turning on (rhetorical...). We'll see what happens when I get back at, post the findings...also one other question, the ECM fuse near the battery...is it to ground? I know that it might be a newbee question, but with the "exceptional" wiring that the PO did it is a question that I have.

 

fuses only protect positive side(for future refrence)....newbbbbbb!

a thought,if you fouled brand new plugs, pull the injector harnesses.
take them and the fuel pump outa the equation
try feeding it gas/fuel yourself with ether/starting fluid, your 18 volts could have made your injectors dump fuel/leak fuel.

just a side thought, or you could fire away <-

 

yeah, I figured that...just thought that it was a little weird that there was what appeared to be a fuseholder with no fuse that went to a ground...

I found my issue though, my ecu is COOKED, like so cooked that it looks like a bad choc chip cookie, I don't know exactly why certain things were testing good though. I tore the ecu out and opened it up...must've had a problem before...it was a reman ecu. So on to find another one...anyone got a good ecu for an 85 w/305 tpi?

 

If you s still need a picture of A/C and A.I.R delete I'll take one in the morning.