Forgive me for I've sinned, I do not own a F Body, all though its coming.
I have a 87 Monte SS, actually the wifes that I plan on rebuilding this winter.
Key focus is on torque, so forget the 350 thing because if I went with my gut, this would have a big block in it. But the ole lady drives it and does not want a monster, but I think it need a little grunt.
Right now it has a Summit ( Weiand) intake, 1.52 roller tipped rockers, new double roller chain, 2050 Hooker headers and runs on the CCC system.
This winter with 104K on it, I'd like to freshen it up some.
Thats where you come on since the Monte forums, well enough said.
If it compression checks good, it'll get honed and re-reringed.
Torque, its key, HP doesn't matter since it stays under 4500 99% of the time.
Heads 059 Vortecs that require a new intake or the 081's with 1.6 exhaust valves, bowl work to match or 1.94 leaving 1.5 exhuast?
Or do I forgo that and do 062 and leave the compression lower and look to the better breathing heads to make up for the slight loss of compression.
Cam, 1102 summit or 1.6 rockers on the stock cam?

Remember to me torque is the key!!!

 

The stock cam is probably holding you back some. Comp Cams makes a few camshaft grinds for your application that are specificaly made to play nice with your CCC and computer. I put one in my 88 Monte a few years back and it worked great at boosting low end torque.

 

Better cam, better exhaust system and maybe an intake. Easy-peasy and cheap with much better torque/hp from idle to 4500.



Oh and you can do some head mods to the stock heads, and install 1.6 rockers if you want to spend some more bucks. The bowl/port work will yield very good results in the mid to top Rs.

 

I ran one of those similar 204/214 cams in a 87 monte with Edelbrock headers and intake. It made a good combo but looking back I should have installed something a little more aggressive yet computer compatible.

 

OK, for those who missed it, the car has a intake and full exhaust allready and those things won't be changed unless I swap heads out.
From reading what is available on these forums it suggests that the 305 has been seriously taken by some people with good results.
The builds you find googling don't show the whole story and the cam swaps that have been done focus more on upper rpm's and don't really add torque. One I read about added 53 H.P., but yielded 6 ft lbs of torque and I want more like the reverse happening.
Like I said its a street vehicle never seeing a track so low end it very important versus upper rpms.
So I'm looking at having these 081 stock heads redone, but has anyone added larger exhaust valves and left the intake side alone? Would this yield more torque since this is the weak side of the head? Or does the 1.94 which requires unshrouding lowering compression some favor more?
Then the idea has been thought that looking for a set of 059 Vortec head which is right as far as head cc and looks to solve the exhaust being weak side. Or 062's which can be bought at the same price as either head being reworked, but lowers the compression, does this loss of compression seriously hurt or does the gain of better flow make it moot?

Cam, well I was given a 1102 so that why that was placed in this post. Low duration, better lift should yield better torque gains than upper R's.
The other cam I was considering is a VooDoo 60101.

Stock it has like 180 H.P. which has to be underrated, but 250ish in torque. So I'm looking at like obtaining a similar ratio 250+ H.P. and 300+ torque. 650 rpm's-4500 being as flat and torquey as possible.

 

are you looking for a number or are you looking for seat-of-pants feel?

Does the engine actually need to be rebuilt? Why not try a set of 3.55:1 gears in the rear and see how you like the seat-of-pants feel.

 

I'm looking to obtain 300+ Ft Lbs Of torque if possible with the idea's I have listed or suggestions otherwise.
New cam and or rockers, head work or heads.
We have 3.73's in the rear all ready.

 

Since the cam was free you may as well use it.
Any increase in chamber volume should be offset by increased flow and efficency. You can always have them shaved down a little and use a head gasket thinner than the standard rebuilder .039" ones. The only possible downside to the vortec type heads is the stock egr will not work.
Redoing the stock heads is an option I would considder only if it could be done for less than the cost to swap heads. You shoud have 1.84"/1.5" valves or something lime that allready so i dont think going up .10" is going to be a dramatic differance. With some porting I dont think your torque goal is too hard to reach.

 

Running a NON EGR intake now and other than carb, firing and TCC lockup, everything else emissions wise has been removed.

Re doing the original heads is cheaper if left alone, just rebuilt, but will add up to maybe within a $100 bucks of a Vortec 062 new heads with extra porting and a larger valve of some sort.
The 059's are, least seem to be a direct drop on, no change in compression, but flowing alot better on the exhaust side without shrouding the 062's would add.
Just looking for the most cost efficient avenue.

Cam, well the neighbor with his 76CC much smaller cam could use the 1102 for his 80 Vette that his rebuilt heads he bought have 1.6's really limiting his cam choices which works in my favor.
The Lunati cam intrigues me since it looks like it'll favor more a balanced increase on both torque and H.P. while adding a light lope to the idle which these OLD EARS likes. But would it do that much more than the 1102 as far as what I want to again be cost efficient.

 

If torque and HP under 4500 is what you want you should just use the heads you have. You could have them cut for bigger valves and bowl blend the ridges made by the cut. You may as well streamline the valve guide since you are in there.

If you are not wanting to grind/port on them buy 1.84 and 1.5 stainless undercut valves and have a 5 angle valve job done (30/45/60/75 seat, 30 back-cut on valve) when you machine them. This valve job alone will pick up considerably low end power. You really don't need to port for a low RPM stump pulling dump trucking motor.

Volume is not your friend if you don't want to spin up. The more volume in the heads the less duration you need, all things equal. There are variables obviously that's just a lame explanation.

The 059's may make more power all over and have a better combustion chamber so you can run less timing but are a bit of an investment for what you want. You have decent heads I would use them and save the 059 idea for when you want to make some serious damn power with your 5.0.

 

What is your budget?

 

I was kinda waiting on you!!
Your 305 posts are full of a wide range of info with a no holds type of mentality. Specially the last one, why build a 350 when a 400 could do better.
Well in this case, to be different, keep the vehicle numbers matching etc.

There is no real budget, just the ideal is best bang for the buck.
If I can hit 325 ft lbs with what I am asking, simple heads and cam than so be it.
Full rebuilt motor here along with head work, cam should run me $2K or less.
If I spend another $1000 which then would be my max since this is when a crate begins to have serious advantages that numbers matching may go away and got another 50++ I might.
750-850 for block prep, rings, pistons if needed, align hone so fourth.
Heads $400 all new valves, seals etc.
Then when disassemble time hits, crank is in decent shape, compression check all ready has been done and its very good, well then the lower half will remain untouched if there is no scaring to be seen.

 

If that is your goal the 081 heads do not need ported just do the 5 angle valve job and use stainless undercut valves. The idea is to get the most action you can at lower lift this will help a lot getting what you want.

Mill the heads down 1-2 cc and do not deck the block. You can .015 shim head gasket and get .040 perfect quench and 9.7-10cr with this. Compression raises power all over the power band so very useful. You should have a knock sensor so no worries here but run premium, if you don't want to forgo the milling other then flatness. You are probably going to overshoot your goal anyway.

Use a cam with a low duration but aggressive lobe design like comp XE250 or equivalent. Voodoo has a line very like the XE comp line if you want to use Voodoo.

 

Doesn't matter whom makes the cam to me.
Now are we talking about the XE-250 being this one
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-230-2/
And will it work with the CCC system with no trouble.

 

You don't want that, it's flat tappet. Your 87 Monte LG4 should have a factory roller cam so you can get an even more agressive lobe design. Try an XR252. It should still fit unmodified heads, I think.

 

The Monte Carlos did not get roller cams in 87. His block should be ready for it though.

 

L69 and I have heard some bits that it could be a roller ready block, but no one has really gotten into that part. What do you want, spent to much time on Monte forums which say scrap the boat anchor.
Roller ready means what???
What would it need for a roller cam besides cam and roller lifters?
Cam button? What else is needed and cost?
I know some that the cams can be much more aggressive of a lobe design.

 

They weren't factory rollers? That's interesting...

"Roller ready" means that the block would be machined to take all the factory roller parts. Just get your hands on a timing set, spider, dogbones, lifters, and cam retainer plate. A cam button would be for a retro-roller setup, but the lifters would cost you a lot more money.

 

That's the cam I was talking about. It will work just fine with the CCC setup, it has negative overlap.

The one Apeiron is talking about is the roller version. More active valve and less friction can be had with it.

I wouldn't invest in roller unless you already have the lifters, it's just not worth it imo. It's better but it isn't $500 better. I wouldn't even suggest the head work (the factory single angle job in good condition could meet your goal) but if you want to fresh them up anyway you may as well get the best of it and pick up power all over.

GM logic puzzles me some times. They put 081 heads on the 87 Monte L69, used a roller block, but didn't use the lifters? It just sounds counter-productive to basically build a TPI 305 bottom end and waste effort/time to use flat tappet in some.

 

Thanks Doom,
You've verified everything I was asking and had a basic idea of and then added a piece I didn't know or had heard.
Yeah the roller cam thing is strange, but sometimes GM likes to use their stock up.
I don't see cost effective in going with a roller at all.
Even if I get the parts to convert it, the cams are much more alone.
The only thing I see if breakin doesn't carry a flat lobe risk.
Heads need valve seals and alot of times when they need those, guides are usually worn so thats why the head removal and while their off I figured spend a few extra and maximize the end results within reason.

 

If torque is your real goal, then why not just use a stroker crankshaft from either scat or eagle. They've got cheapies that'll work fine with your combination and the extra displacement will help you pick up the tq you're looking for. A camshaft from an lt1 with some decent rockers will also help out. The crank alone should get you an extra 20-30 lb ft of torque. Switching from 1.5 to 1.6 rockers will increase the lift of the camshaft as well as fooling the motor into thinking it has an extra 2 degrees of duration. Check some of dave vizard's books out on this subject. Just my

 

All ready looked into the stroker crank.
The crank's may be cheap, but then they need balancing etc etc etc, then it becomes not cost effective.

There was a thought of just doing seals and while at it, adding 1.6 roller tipped rockers. Try that out, see how it works, save some more and when NY state no longer requires any emissions anything on a vehicle 25 years old or older which I'm a year+ away, then go nuts.
Now will the 1.6's fit, no slot problem.
I've read it makes the motor think the cam is 3-4 degrees longer while adding lift. Results vary but it should yield a balanced increase of around 12-15.

 

There is no reason to consider a stroker kit for a 305. If you needed a bigger engine the 350 becomes more cost effective and has more potential.

If you want to use 1.6 rockers you can elongate the slot when you take the heads off.

 

The valves and the fancy valve job will help a lot in getting that flat torque curve you wanted. The valve worked like this allows the heads to move more mixture at lower lifts so the cylinder fills more and sooner. You could consider going bigger on the intakes it's only like $50 to cut for them and a budget set doesn't cost more then $50-60 last I checked. That would help even more.

But like I said before I think you will over-shoot your goal, no need to stroke. It would add loads of torque though but 325ft/lbs is easy with a low spinning 305. If your goal was to get the max torque out of the block maybe a good idea but I agree it's not economical for what you want.

I just had a set of 305 heads done like I suggested with the fancy valve job, cut for 1.94's, full service (clean, mag, ect) and the end bill was $320. I already had all the valve train hardware that was basically labor, just to give you an idea what it may run you.

 

I'm sorry. I thought you were taking the pistons and so forth out for a cheap rebuild. Balancing could have been done at that point and time, if you wanted to balance the assembly. If you get the correct crank, you shouldn't have to balance though, so that cost is a moot point.

@red86z28 "There is no reason to consider a stroker kit for a 305. If you needed a bigger engine the 350 becomes more cost effective and has more potential."

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Sourcing a 350 rather than re-using his 305 costs money. Not to mention that the a used 350 block could have core shift, be cracked, or missing a lot of parts that will nickel and dime him. You can argue that he could buy one here for cheap, but he'll still have to tear it down to make sure the block is in good shape, as well as the components that come with it. Failure to do so could result in catastrophic results. He knows the history of his 305, but not of any 350 he could buy from someone else. Flip the coin and say he could buy a new block and you're at the point where your argument of cost effectiveness hits a brick wall. And I haven't even touched the subject of camshaft, fuel delivery, increasing the engines ability to breath via the intake and heads yet.

We are both in agreement that the 350 has more potential than the little 305 though. If all he wants is more torque out of his a stroker crank is the way to go with a cam out of an lt1. He keeps his emmisions compliance, doesn't break the bank, and has reached his goal of making more torque from his current motor. He can go through summit to get a cheap rebuild kit or an even cheaper re-ring kit. The re-ring kit costs like 185 bucks with gaskets. Add another 180-200 bucks and he has a stroker crankshaft which increases his displacement to 335 c.i. for a whopping 385 bucks. The lt1 cam can be had on here for anywhere from 40-75 bucks, upping the price of his goal to a maximum 460 bucks outlay of cash. If he has his heads done he's looking at another 4-500 bucks and yet he still comes in under a 1000 bucks. And he does it in a way that hasn't hurt his ability to pass emmision testing. Best of all, he doesn't have to get a custom burned prom either. How can you say that a 350 is a more cost effective way to reach his goal?

I agree with you that there's no replacement for displacement, but in the end the size of your wallet determines what is truly cost effective. Especially if you don't want your car down for a long time.

 

There is no way your going to to all of that for under $1000. I'm almost sure the stroker crank requires new pistons specifically for the 3.75" stroke. I have been down this road before and was never able to do anything as cheaply as I figured. Also if I were going to do a roller conversion there are better cams out there than the LT1.

 

An 87 monte carlo should already have a roller cam, so there's no need for a conversion. Pistons shouldn't be a problem unless he changes his connecting rod size. One thing I did forget to mention is that his block will have to be machined to make room for the rotating asembly to spin freely. I don't disagree with you on the cam, but I was shooting for an emissions legal and cheap cam, since that seems to be his goal here. I believe in one of his posts he said that he was in ny and had to pass a state emissions test. Doom said he got his heads redone for 320 bucks, which is about 80-180 less than what I stated. You're right about projects never going as cheaply as you expect. Things always pop up to nickel and dime you. I usually price my project out and then add 10% to that total for unexpected costs.

The main focus here seems to be a rebuild done as cheaply as possible, that accomplishes the goal of gaining him at least 320 lb ft of torque. He's already stated that if he was gonna do a motor swap he'd be throwing in a big block, so we're stuck planning for a 305 on a budget. As you stated earlier, there are a ton of cams out there that will make a lot of power and torque, but the air will be running through the stock heads. Any cam he buys should be a roller cam, which means he'll be paying 200+ for a different camshaft. In order to maintain emissions, he also has to be wary of the duration figures his new can uses, as well as the lobe seperation angle and intake centerline. The more powerful camshafts usually run a lobe seperation angle of anywhere between 110-112, with 112 being preferrable for fuel injection. Depending on his duration and intake centerline, the camshaft may cause him to fail emmisions testing. That's why I chose the lt1 camshaft. It has more lift, duration and the lobe seperation angle and intake centerline are emissions legal for 1994, which is 7 years newer than his current cam. It's also at least 130 bucks cheaper, which is in keeping with his budget theme. I believe he said he's already got the 1.6 roller rockers, which will improve the valvetrain geometry. Therefore, all he has to do is re-use his lifters and so forth for a pretty decent performance increase with his other mods. He doesn't have to get a custom chip, but it will help the motor make the most power with his new combination if he did.

As I've stated numerous times in my posts, I'm not disagreeing that a 350 would be a nice upgrade anymore than I would disagree that putting a big block in there would be preferrable. I'm just trying to stay in the realm of what he's laid out for this build, which re-uses his old 305.

 

I have actually bought a roller cam setup used and put it in a 305


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-35...item255de83440

 

The first car I really tore into was an 87 monte ls. It had the lower power 305 with the smaller cam and valves. The engine like all 87 and 88 monte carlo 305s used regular non roller cams. My block was machined for use with a roller cam but I am not sure all of the early 87 cars would be. If his engine is one of the ones machined for a roller cam a conversion would be fairly cheap and simple if he were willing to use salvaged parts.
The pistons would need to be changed because the pin hight in the current piston is to low and the piston would extend out of the block at tdc with a 3.75" stroke. Also he would need a 400 type flexplate and damper to go with likely machining and balancing costs. This is Not exactly a budget project.
The best thing to do here is stick to the quick refresh with a cam and headwork idea.

 

All Monte's through 88, the last year did not come with a roller cam per MonteSS.com

I'm not being cheap which has been mentioned.
Cheap enough that a crate would not be considered and getting over $2k would create this.
Doom has my idea in mind.
Low Mid range torque and the best I can get keeping spending down.
Car never see's over 5000 rpm's really.
Stump puller has been mentioned.
It goes to car shows, cruise nights and driving around with the club.
Will never see a track.

Red said, quick refresh and if I can get away with a hone and re ring, I will.
Heads, needs seals and probably guides, so lets get them redone, bowl work, undercut valves, 3 angle and minor bowl work. Just wasn't sure if larger exhaust valves would yield more than larger intake ones since both cannot be done at the current bore.

Then a cam!

Allready have 1.52 roller tipped rockers, Summit dual plane intake, double roller chain, hooker 2050 headers ( Cut air tubes off and welded the holes shut), gutted cat and a 3 inch pipe ovated and shoved through it with 2 1/2 back to 2 1/2 inlet mufflers, 2 1/4 out.
This was all done because when we got the car it had just under 100K on it and I thought lets be safe and get this outta the way.

Here is a link to the pig.
http://s486.photobucket.com/albums/r...S/Our%20Monte/

 

That's a nice looking Monte SS you got there. I always liked those SS's and yours looks great. When I was getting a new daily driver it was down to a Monte SS or another Thirdgen Fbody and I had to save this RS convertible, this lady was trying to kill it and felt bad for it.

You have a a good base to work with I say go for it.

What RPM does your trans shift at when you got the throttle wide open? With the rest of your combo I would have a hard time not going bigger on the cam. The one I suggested earlier would be good for a 4500RPM shift with stock heads. The XE256 would probably suit 5000-5500 shifts with stock heads.

All that low end torque, all that gear in the back, it's going to be roasting tires.

 

A quick refresh would definitely be a budget minded thing to do red. Not trying to say you're cheap mc305ss. I apologize if we've made you feel that way. I kinda got the impression you were trying to keep the price below a crate motor, which can be had for about 1700 bucks. Granted that will need extra parts to make it happen, but a lot of your parts could be used to finish it off.

After reading your earlier post, I'd say you have a pretty good idea which direction you're heading in though.

 

Thank you for the comment.
We were looking for a 3rd Gen Camaro, IROC T-Top preferred by the old lady, but couldn't find the price she wanted to spend.
But we saw this Monte, needed paint but in great shape otherwise and picked it up for $4200. She still wants a 3rd Gen Camaro, but she won't let me sell this.

Trans will go 52-5300 WOT with no problem.

Yup, thats what were looking for, low end, ROAST EM which it does a pretty good job of now.

Yes IROC, staying under a crate price is the idea, but getting more of a result than a crate offers without extras added.
If I find that Camaro she wants, hopefully I can find a solid one, bad motor and then I will take and old 396 .030 over block and rotating assembly, which I have that I have saved for something, finish it, stuff it in the Monte with a Ford 9" and the motor in the Monte goes into the Camaro.

There is a method to this madness!!!!!!

 

I really do miss my monte sometimes.

 

Ok, over the weekend I found a ad on criagslist for 350 TPI blocks and it had mentioned more parts available.
Found out he had heads, but in the end they were 083's and 081's and as a extra bonus, come to find out he is a member here.
Picked up the 081's and plan on getting them redone.
My heads have one broken exhaust bolt and I remove them daily out of castings at work and this one beat me so I drilled it out and retapped it. I don't trust a thread made in a thread, it did not follow 100%, so this reason and time to play I got them.
3 angle grind, 30 degree backcut on the valves and I will attempt per a post on this site to further open then up.
So question is, I look at summit, put my car info in and it comes up with a bunch of head gaskets. Which one do I want and I don't want a compression boost etc?

Also I was given a 1102 summit cam since the guy down the road I've been helping decided he did want it in his vette.

So after all these ideas, which I thank everyone for we are staying near the ideals, just some minor changes.

So thats the plan now unless anyone has anything else to throw into the mix, so by summer will be ready!!

 

350 is where the torque is at man.

 

Its up to you. I would go 350

 

I put the summit 1102 in my al newly rebuilt 305,and I have great lowend power. not like a 350 but so what. Would I like a 350 uh yes I would. But 350 castings are getting darn rare here in the dallas area, most all of the ones I found are at 40 over now. I dont want a one piece rear main because all the ones around here dont have a fuel pump hole cut into it and I dont want to run an electric fuel pump.And if I were to get one with a pump hole they want a premium for it, by the time thats paid for I could get a crate motor,and I can afford that either. To many people seem to have nothing better to do than bad mouth a 305,thats just sad. Not all of us on this site can afford a 500hp 350 with all the goodies. I like that this man is using what he has. I bet it will run just fine when he is done. My set up total cost well under 1000 dollars and it has new everything.