ok, so before anyone says anything about junking my 305 and picking up a 350 please know i am staying with my 305, i am more then aware that $ for $ 350's all day, however this is the original motor and its really responded well to my upgrades. So far my best 1/8 mile is 8.15 @ 83 with a 100 shot of nitrous and 8.9 no bottle. With all that been said im looking to up compression by throwing in a new set of KB flat tops and iv stumbled across the 335 stroker kits. Im trying to see whos running this kit and hoping tunedport335 can chime in. Im also looking for everyones fastest 1/8 or 1/4 mile times with there 305's.
Thanks guys

 

ok, so before anyone says anything about junking my 305 and picking up a 350 please know i am staying with my 305, i am more then aware that $ for $ 350's all day, however this is the original motor and its really responded well to my upgrades. So far my best 1/8 mile is 8.15 @ 83 with a 100 shot of nitrous and 8.9 no bottle. With all that been said im looking to up compression by throwing in a new set of KB flat tops and iv stumbled across the 335 stroker kits. Im trying to see whos running this kit and hoping tunedport335 can chime in. Im also looking for everyones fastest 1/8 or 1/4 mile times with there 305's.
Thanks guys

 

skip the stroker kit and put a good set of heads/cam in it.

 

^Agree.

The 305's problem is the small bore. A stroker will only exagerate the problem.

If you are determined to stay 305, spend the money on good heads and cam like diggler said.
And since you like the giggle juice, skip the KB's and get some forged units.

 

Or maybe realize that since the small bore is the issue, do something that rewards a small bore and put a turbo on it. Smaller bores are allegedly more detonation resistant -> more boost.

 

everyone always says swap to a 350.. growing up this is all i've read on here... and you know what? they are right, a 350 should be the starting point.

that said i have a 305 because i didn't listen to above statement.

my 1/4 was 12.64 on boost, dynoed 380 hp and 420 ft/lbs of torque to the wheels.

ask me if i regret it?

yes... i should have started with a 350, that's all that's on my mind now.

 

just because its the original engine really means nothing. especially since your gonna stroke it. i dont anybody is looking for a numbers matching 305.

years ago i built up a 305 for my wife, against better judgement, because we "already had the block". machine work, flat top pistons, new crank, rebuilt rods, new cam, etc. it had an aluminum intake, new holley, and headers. it ran pretty good, but,....for all the money, work and time, i could of just as aesily built a 350, 383, or 400. i always kicked myself in the azz for that build. what a waste of money.

i'm not trying to rain on your parade, but think it through. theres a reason a lot of people will tell you to start with at least a 350.
i'd save for a better motor before dumping cash into stroking a 305. have fun in the mean time.

 

im not keeping the 305 for value reasons, car will go to the grave with me. its a street car that i take to car shows and the track. If i was looking for the most power i could possibly make, yes i would go with a 383 or bigger hands down, growing up with drag racing im more then aware. However anyone and everyone drops a 350 in everything.
I already have a pretty healthy cam in car and it really runs strong I think now my only limiting factor would be the LO3 heads. I had them milled .010 and hogged to 1.94 valves. But non the less they are still a poor flowing head. Aside from the heads id like to ditch to dished stock pistons and rods and net somewhere around 10.5:1 . I just kinda figured where i am replacing pistons, why not stroke it. Cost wise it isnt much more at all.

 

what would you recomend for heads? i looked at some 059 vortecs but think my money would be better spent on trick flows super 23 heads. Any opinions on that?

 

And incase it wasnt seen car runs 8.9 N/A which is the same as stock 4th gen ls1's. Run several at my local track and it always just comes down to who gets the tree. IMO my slightly modded 305 that runs along side ls1's isnt to shabby.

 

your best pass with a 100 shot was 2 mph slower than my stock '99 ls1 went on street tires at full weight.

 

Well, it appears reason and logic have no hold on you, so I guess, just

 

id regret that to considering the v6 cars are running mid to low 12's with 10 psi of boost ( about an 800 $ investment)

i had a stroked 305 many years ago , i didnt build it it was in the car when i bought it , for all the money that guys spent on that car before i got it , i still got beat by normally aspirated honda civics, and other lil imports/family cars ,the car was a 5 speed car to boot

to the op listen to these guys dont waste ur time with the 305

 

whats your over all goal for the 305 ? i'm adding a turbo to mine this year .

 

Why do these 305 threads always seem to start this way? Even if someone did tell you to get a 350, are their words that overpowering that you would submit to them lol? Build what you want and enjoy it. As for a power enhanced 305's small bore being the problem, the 2JZ shares the same bore size with two less cylinders, and it does just fine. Bottom line is how fast do you want to go and how deep are your pockets.

 

I have never seen a stock ls1 on street tires run 8.15's...... ever. no stock camaro with street tires and full weight would run anywhere near there. There are alot of 4th gen ls1's at my track and the best iv seen with a good driver and traction was 8.7 stock. Round here 8.15 with a 305 thats driven 45 miles to the track and then driven home is pretty impressive. thats mid to high 12's and I really dont have alot of money tied up. Again though guys im not looking for anyone to persuade me, Just seeing whos running some fast 305's. i know there are some guys out here.

 

honestly its a street car that i take to the track on sundays. I wanna run pump gas and continue to drive it 45 miles there and 45 miles back like i do know. I'm not trying to make it a drag car or anything. If i could pull and honest 400-450 hp out of it, that'd be perfect then throw my 100 shot too it when I'm looking for lil push. With no tunning to the NOS system and low bottle pressure my 100 shot got me down to 8.15's. Id like to run that with out the NOS. So all an all id like to knock off about 7-8 tenths of my 1/8 mile N/A (8.9 on motor)

 

yeah but i think i've hit a stage in my life where i don't care, i drive my car on the street if something beats it i'm not gonna drop a new drive train in it, i'm too old to be dropping tons of money in my car, for what i've done, i could have bought a vette.

 

Well, I know what mine runs, but that is only because I know how fast the cars that I mess around with on the street essentially run at the track. Try not to get caught up in the whole 305 vs 350 comparisons especially in the power adder section because all bets are off when we get into boost. But getting back to the original question of the thread, I'd much rather be blown... than stroked. Oh, that goes for my engine too lol.

 

haha is there a better thread i should post up in? And what does yours run?

 

I don't think you'll pull 400-450 on pump gas reliably out of a 305 or maybe even the 335 without forced induction, which would truly be the smartest and easiest way to make the 305 faster.

Keep in mind though, the 305 piston and the 335 piston most likely have a different wrist pin location, meaning you can't just run any 305 piston with that kit.

 

i was only talking about the mph. my '99 went 8.50's at 84-85mph on the stock 17" wheels and summitomo tires. 2.19ish 60' with a 6 speed. later on it went 7.44@93-94 1.53 60' with 12 bolt, slicks, 376rwhp. full weight.

you can make anything fast with enough money. if you want to make your 305 fast, then you can do it. but you could spend the same amount of money building a 350/400 and go faster. the stroker kits will cost relatively the same, the heads cost roughly the same, intakes the same, carbs the same, cams the same..... but you could wind up with 100 more cubes if you did a 434. main thing is to just put a great pair of heads on whatever you build because thats where the power is. a 350 with great topend can outrun a 434 with a poor topend.

 

there are only like 4 or 5 decent 305 shelf piston options anyways

just hit it with more dope! It really dosn't make sense to do a NA 305

 

Super chevy did and article on a 305 build using stock internals, 8.5:1 compression, pro comp intake holley carb, trick flow heads and comp .490/.495 lift cam that dynod 363 hp and 355 lb/tq. Thats a really mild build. little more cam and more compression easely could hit the 400 mark, not to mention stroking it. The kit im looking at is a full kit, rods, KB pistons and 400 crank.

 

2JZ has four valves per cylinder. Completely irrelevant. Our problem is we are limited to two valves and there is a much better option available at very very low cost.

Then why are you stroking a 305? That's MORE money for a smaller engine than a 350 that's cheaper AND will make more power AND has more (Affordable even!) options for pistons, cylinder heads etc.

I mean if that's what you want to do, I wish you luck. I've seen quick 305's. But this whole "Im gonna stroke and hot rod out my 305 to be different!" thing has played out over and over and the guys with 350's always end up happier in the end. So if you dont care about going fast and dont want to spend a ton of money, just put a tiny cam in your 305 and rebuild it and call it a day. The money you will spend on a stroker kit will pay for a 350 core. Blocks are pocket change compared to the big picture machinework costs.

 

8.5:1 compression and a sub .500" lift cam made 363 horsepower and 355 torque out of a 305...right

 

Here's my take on this:
1)building a 305 short block to a stroker is a waste for most. At some level I can see throwing rods and slugs in one if you're making stupid power. Even then I'd probably just go get a Vortec 305 short block that has the powdered metal rods.
2)DO NOT use KB pistons of any kind for nitrous/forced induction. The ring lands on them are higher up and a lot of people tear them off even on N/A builds.
3)what intake do you have for this engine and what cam? What are you running off the jug?
4)If you want heads, get and mill some Vortec 305 heads or "601" heads. The 601s have a 53CC chamber which should help your 305 out considerably. They make .015 shim gaskets that should shave about .012 or so out of your gasket thickness compared to the stockers. I would definitely be paranoid about piston to valve clearances with this setup at some point. Iron is probably better than aluminum with the dishes just because they have a higher thermal efficiency. (e.g. you don't need as high of a static compression.)
5)what are your shift points? Have you experimented with shift points to be sure you're shifting at a high enough RPM?
6)I hate to sound like captain obvious here but no one has mentioned it. Why not just throw some bigger jets in your nitrous setup?

 

.... lmao, and who said that they didn't have four valves per cylinder? The statement was, since you obviously didn't take the time to read or comprehend what I was getting at, is that a small bore is not a disadvantage, regardless how many cylinders, or how many valves your running. Clearly a single 1.94" ported valve will flow more than enough air with the right turbo and boost pressure to support way over 1000 horsepower with the same bore size. But wait, since you brought up the four valve concept, only two of those four valves, not all four of them, provide the charge, and those two valves are what, 33.60mm (1.32" for those unable to convert) each (less two cylinders remember)? Hmm, where's the benefit to an anemic engine? Perhaps needing to be spun higher? Or maybe the much needed lag at lower RPM's? There is nothing irrelevant with what I pointed out, the 2JZ can make great power on a similarly sized bore and stroke, and so can the LC2 V6. By the way, you do realize what section I normally respond in, do you not? Power Adder, and not NA? I can show you a nine second turbo Buick with 1.74" intake valves, one per cylinder, and believe me, it's stock bore, which is a tad larger than the 305's (3.80"), is no restriction.

 

I'm lmao too, smart guy. Ever heard of curtain area? Look it up before launching into a diatribe of what valve arrangements flow more air

Buddy, to your original post: I won't comment on your endeavor, but to your question of performance, see sig. Nothing done to the engine except a 100 shot
It was 8.1X @ 91.X in the 1/8th

 

You gotta keep in mind that those magazine builds never run the front accessories like will be on your car. Those engines don't even spin their own water pump, plus they have long tube headers with extremely low restriction exhaust.

 

If your worried about your original engine why are you spraying it and wanting to tear into it anyway? Once your start modding it it's no longer "original". Why not just build you another engine to beat on and pull your original out and save it? Doing that if you ever want to sell it as an original car you can just slide the original engine back in, plus if you build another engine your car won't be down in the mean time.

 

I’m the guy that wants to say to the other men at the track when they ask "what do you have in it? I could say = Its a 350 with "type of" heads,cam,etc. full 3in. exhaust ,9" rear with such and such gear ratio.etc.
I most defiantly would not want to say = 5.0 and especial not want to start rattling off all the parts I put in and on the engine. Any one that's any one will be shaking their head as they walk away.
And don't tell me that would not bother you because no one wants to look like they "don't know what they’re doing" to the other racers.
Sorry man but that's exactly what guys that are knowledgeable are thinking when I say 5.0. I can see it in their face and some have even made comments about putting in a 350. That's not even at the track.
I love my car and am very happy with what I have put into it .But all of that can be switched over to a 350 when the time comes.Id talk to the other racers and pick their brains about it. Some of these guys including ones here "really do" know what there doing when it comes to building an engine.
But it’s your car so do what makes you happy.

No disrespect intended to those that have chosen to "build a 5.0" . Just an observation.

 

currently im running a performer intake withe a 650 DP and a comp hydraulic roller cam, .510/.520 lift and .232/.236 duation @ .050. i am already running a .015 shim. an have had the heads milled .010. still my compression ratio comes out at like 9.3;1. I do want to change out the heads at some point, maybe that should be my next upgrade?? When im racing i shift at 5500 RPM. And I just wanna get the car running low 8's all motor. I KNOW the motor can do it i just need the right set up, again though guys, considering my mods (cam, intake, carb, and bigger valves (1.94's) 8.9s isnt bad at all i dont think, considering it was a 10 second car stock. My buddy has an IROC with TPI 350 with a couple bolt ons and hes only running 9.2s.

 

maybe i should rephrase. I am not keeping the 305 in it because of value, the car goes to the grave with me. when this all started at the race track everyone told me you could NEVER make a 305 fast. I guess you guys arent understanding what im asking, i was just simply looking for people who have stroked there 305, im not looking for a debate on 305 vs 350 or to be persuaded one way or the other. I have already dove into this car with cam and carb swap ext, and honestly the car runs damn good, 8.9 motor passes with stock pistons, rods crank, heads and 700 r4 tranny isnt not bad at all. IMO. my friend IROC 350 TPI with bolt ons runs 9.2's.

 

Intake and cam are horribly matched, you probably are going to need a bit more stall too but at least it's a 3200. A performer RPM or even something like a Vic Jr. would fit the cam a lot better. You at least have some gear to back it up though.

5500 probably ain't gonna do it with that cam either. You're shifting just as the engine's coming into power. Think another 1000 RPM probably. My advice is get a governer adjustment kit and start reducing the weights or decreasing the spring pressures a bit a at a time. If you can get a spare governor from the JY or classifieds and go to town. This is a Turbo 350 but a 700R4 uses the same style setup. I'm not sure but if you can get one a 60 degree V6 governor may help you out too.

http://www.rustpuppy.org/chapter5/chapter5a.htm

I don't think your problem is the cubes or even head flow as much as it's a somewhat mismatched combo. As said this SHOULD be quicker for what it is. Bump the shift RPM, change the intake to something that will let it rev and get back to us. You may be better off camming down ultimately but at the same time changing an intake first and seeing what it does is a hell of a lot easier.

ED:If you're looking to do heads at the same time get some Vortec 305 heads, cut em down to say 54cc, do some light porting on the exhaust, modify em for the lift and toss em on along with another intake. Personally I'd try the intake and shift points though. Buy a decent intake off Craigslist or the classifieds for $100 and hock it again if you go that route.

 

That's cool. You can make anything fast with enough $$$.

 

yea i realized after the fact that my intake was terrible. I was looking at the vortec heads but then found Trick flows alluminum heads that are designed for a 305 and for 1100 complete.. cant really beat it. Im thinking maybe just the intake and heads would see a large difference. But i am worried about spraying all the time with stock internals. and thats also why i havnt pushed it much over 5500.

 

But you said you wanted to drive the car to the track, and didn't want to make it a "drag car".

There are fast 305 cars out there, but their streetability is marginal at best. Yes, one guy stripped the car down, built up the 305, and was running some good numbers. Well, guess what - you can swap in an LS1, add some exhaust, stall and gears, drive it to the track, and run 11's - without stripping it down. Ask me how I know.

NHRA stock class 3rd gen 305 cars run in the 11's. I can guarantee you none of them are at all streetable.

So, a healthy dose of realism is in order here. If you want to drive the car to the track, with full interior, and drag race it, yes, you can do that. Just expect to be running 14's (okay, we'll give you high-13's) if you aren't using any power adder.

If you really want to be faster than that, the 335 is about the worst way to spend your money to get there.

 

spraying my car it runs 12.6's.... as is. Why do you not recommend the 335? aside from cost

 

You can't just say that smallbores are fine, look at DOHC Four valve per cylinder engine X! You can't compare volumetric efficiency, brake specific fuel consumption, hp/displacement ratios, or really ANYTHING between these two different architectures because they clearly have NOTHING in common. You can say this engine weighs this much and makes this much power, but that's about it.

More valves per cylinder greatly increases the amount of airflow for a given bore size. Since the amount of combustion chamber space we can use for airflow is inherently limited, the restrictions caused by small bores actually become a large concern. You can look at something like a motorcycle engine or an F1 engine with tiny little pistons and say "small bores don't matter", but you're completely missing the forest for the trees when they're able to cram tons of air in there and aren't limited to two valves per cylinder. Why are we discussing forced induction when all this guy has mentioned is stroking a 305 and nitrous?

And make no mistake, it's not that the 305 has a small bore, it's that the 305 has a small bore compared to an even more common engine within the same architecture that's easily available for chump change and bolts right in. No one says "Dont waste your time with a 350, get a 400! larger bore bro!", because 400's are hard to find and expensie and need to have certain quirks addressed. 350's are a dime a dozen, that's the difference. EVERYTHING is relative. If the 305 bore was the largest bore sbc ever made we'd say it was excellent.

 

Personally I'd go with the vortec's over the TFS. Even with new valves and head work, the vortec's will perform just as good for much less.

 

#059 vortecs?

is it possible to make LO3 heads flow as good as the vortecs or are the vortecs just all around better?

 

For $100 more, you can have a 383. That will probably be at least a second quicker than the 335, all else being equal. The 335 increases the cubes, but does nothing about the one thing that will always limit a 305 - the bore size. A 350 solves that issue, and should cost you less than either a 383 or 335 to prepare as a weekend warrior.

You haven't said what heads you'd put on this 335. I hope you realize your LO3 heads are not suitable for the task. Anything over .45" lift is wasted on them, so even the cam you have now is unsuitable for what you're doing. (Have to admit I've never heard of anyone putting 1.94" intake valves in a set of those heads.)

So, add heads to whatever cost you were assuming for the 335.

Is 12.6 quick enough for you? If so, you can buy a lot of bottle fills for what a 335 is going to cost you.

Personally, I find it hard to win rounds spraying, so I prefer avoiding the bottle. A very streetable 350 should be able to run 12.6's. An even more streetable 383 would be very capable of running 12.6's.

Granted, the most important part about building any SBC is using proper heads. Most factory 350 heads are just as bad as your LO3 heads. A set of Vortec heads is a step in the right direction, and there are relatively inexpensive aftermarket heads that would be even better.

So, do you just want to go faster, or do you want to spend your money in the most efficient way to go faster? That's why you keep hearing not to build a 305. If you're running a stock class that requires a 305 - fine. Otherwise, it's money down the toilet.

 

Not really, no.

You'd be better off with 416 or 081 heads than the TBI heads. The Vortec heads are marginally better than the previous two, but you'll need to buy a new intake for them. The 305 Vortec heads, from what i understand, did NOT get the special ports and combustion chamber that the 350 heads have. They just have the special port flange shape (narrower, taller) so they require the special intake.

 

The primary reason why turbo's are so popular on 305's is it does somewhat help overcome the bore size shrouding the intake valve.
The other mixed bag is 305's engine size lends itself to a power curve in higher rpm range while stroking it lends itself to a power curve of low end rpm torque.
The super stock cars you see running outrageous times with 305 are cars who's clearances that could never live in street use and have more money spent on them than god intended to used on any race car application.

 

Hey,wait a minute.This O/P has a thread in the engine swap section and here??.Screw that.I ant chasing him with advise!!!.

 

There is practically no point of getting heads unless you are willing to rev higher. You are probably not using these heads to their fullest even with that intake. Up the redline a few hundred rpm and see what happens to your mph. Keep going till you slow down. I mean it is somewhat irrational to worry about fragging an engine you want to rebuild anyways. After that do the intake and see if your redline increases again. After that point do heads. Shift points are as much of a tuning thing as carb jetting and you are shifting when you should be in the cams power band.If you dont want to spin this get a cam with 20 degrees less duration and a tighter converter. At the point you are not willing to rev you are badly over cammed.

 

By the way, we prefer you only post a topic in one forum. Therefore, I have merged your two threads.

 

You race 1/8 mile and simply cannot make that assumption.


Your combo you may be just fine for first 660', the last 660' that motor will fall on it's face trying to run the full 1/4 even with a 100 shot.

the LS motors you claim you are faster than, given a full track to race on would make up the difference on the big end.

Produce an actual 12.6 1/4 mile timeslip before making assumptions.

 

I remeber reading a story on an 11 sec 305 tpi stocker class car.

What details they shared were just crazy and sounded like the worst possible set up to drive.

But back on topic.

Go ahead and do what you want to with the 305, as you know it goes against thr conventional wisdom.
As you have seen others have gone down the road before, and they all say they should have gone straight to the 350 or bigger. But you may be different.

If you are going to spend money on it, get forged parts and good hardware. Spray the crap out of it to make up for thr short comings and save money to fix the broke Drivetrain parts!
Oh yeah, and suspension parts to hook all the new power, oh and a rollbar, and other parts needed to pass tech!