86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

They're not exactly lying to you. They're just responding in their best interest.
It's not a black and white issue, so it's not a "defective" part. Truth be told, it probably will not make a difference in 95% of the builds including yours.
They're not losing business by replying as they did; maybe 1 or 2 sales. If they admitted an error, they (Dart) would be spending 10's of thousands $$'s to correct it.
I've been around the block often enough to see that's how business works .......and no matter how many times I've seen it, I still don't like it.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well - I don't either. But honestly, I'd rather not be "dragged in the mud" when I question as to whether or not it's a good idea to take a carbide burr to an engine block I just spent quite a bit of cash on. Yeah, I verify...so what?!? You mean you wouldn't?

I learned long ago not to trust anything anyone tells me just anything unless I'm already familiar with it. But I do have the outlandish ability once I gather all the data to then decide for myself what I want to do. I know, weird huh?

So - I post up what Dart's reply is to this...just to get replies such as "guess half the flow is better than no flow", or they're lying to you....

Maybe....just maybe this thread will help someone else decide if they want to roll out their cash on a Dart block. I could've just not started a thread at all.

Even though I really DO appreciate Hinkson letting me know about the cooling passage mismatch, I most likely would have seen it myself when I went to put the heads on this thing....without the thread, I might have remembered it after the next guy bought his Little M block, and said " hey, BTW....."

People mod things all the time to make more power...they gasket match ports, chamfer oil returns in intake valleys, etc...modding cooling passages is totally new to me I'll admit...

Fact is, I haven't decided whether I'm going to grind on this thing or not....and the replies from Dart didn't help. If this were not assembled, the decision would be a bit easier....but the short block is together.

I hate the thought of grinding and throwing metal shavings around....guess maybe you all will find out which way I go...maybe not.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, I didn't mean to rub salt.
I know you're in a dilemma, and I guess I only stated what you already painfully knew about their response. Honestly, I wouldn't fault you for whatever you decide at this point. Like I said, for a non-max effort build, I wouldn't sweat it.
If you decide on more in the future, you're likely to have it torn down to this level again anyway.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Naw, I didn't mean you personally! Just the way this thread seems to have gone....being told the shop I chose half-*ssed the motor, being bashed when I didn't directly run into my garage and start grinding on the thing when someone I don't know told me to...

Then when I do report the info from the people that casted the block, skeptism still....

Anyways, just venting and I should know better by now since I've been on this board for like...ever. I got a few days to think about whether I'm grinding on this thing, and if I do, I need to figure out the best way to NOT get any shavings in the cylinders, and how I'd wash them out of the cooling jackets etc...

I'll figure that out if I do this....only take an hour tops with a burr....

1gary

Here is the direct quote:

you always chamfer the bottom of bores ALWAYS well i do ... but you blend it more of a roll. just a chamfer you just move the edge up you want to roll the edge of the bore . as for water or steam holes ? dart knows were and how big the holes are so I would not open up any more of the deck then needed.

This man's work is impeccable and his knowledge base is outstanding.Anyone who really knows me,knows I'm not easy to keep happy and my expectations are not that easy to meet.I totally approve of this msg.If anyone would nit pick a design it certainly would be the quoted contact who is a sizable Dart dealer and engine builder for over 25 yrs.

I was going to say approach this as if it where a BBC aftermarket race deal as far as the cooling system.But from what you posted,sounds like you have that pretty well covered anyways.

Enjoy your build,as I set back in the "cheap seats" and watch it come to life.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I gotta ask Gary....

Who are you direct quoting, and I don't understand it! Lol

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If you did grind, turn block upside down and mask off the deck with tape and rags. That will block and catch any shavings. Also helps if someone holds a vacuum cleaner while you grind to suck in the shavings.

HINKSON AUTO

I have seen a lot of OEM blocks that there is not a center hole in the deck I don't cry about it I just machine it in and go from there. OEM gaskets will work on those blocks but do nothing to cool the center of the heads where the heads are the hottest.

With the newer performance gaskets with no hole will cause problems.

Same with the OEM BBC there seems to be a missing hole on the decks of some of those blocks.

The earlier Little-M and Iron Eagle blocks the smaller lower holes were completely blocked off, Dart has cured that problem.

I have machined 100's of those blocks and always address the issue its just common practice at my shop.

When building any performance engine everything needs to be checked period. Lifter bore size, main line housing bores ETC.

Her is what I do to any block I machine.

1gary

It's kind of curious you are so willing to sell yourself at the expense of the O/P's believed in builder........is kind of my point.

Our BBC 565 had lifter bore sizing issues that got out of hand and we fixed them ourself.The 632 and 605 after that was handled.

HINKSON AUTO

What are you asking.

Like I posted before That being said IMHO having the water ports line up is the only right way to have the correct amount of water flowing to the center of the heads where it is needed. My self and other shops and engines builder I deal with feel the same way.

When intake ports are mismatched don't you correct that problem?

1gary

We're NOT going down this road in a debate and ruin this O/P's thread.Got it??.

My suggestion and Dart's own,is to leave this alone.

I also suggest the O/P check the lifter bores for size.Take your time on this assemble.Measure twice and get it right.But check everything.

HINKSON AUTO

Why check the lifter bores I guess those can be off like gasket match to the water holes LOL GOT IT

HINKSON AUTO

Why check the lifter bores I guess those can be off like gasket match to the water holes LOL GOT IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

If you consider getting second opinions is "crying"...then yes, I'm crying then.

Just my rookie opinion on these Dart blocks h, overall....they're built muck tougher than any OEM block, and a lot of the shortcomings are addressed in the design. I at least kind of expect that with the price you pay for one.

What I don't expect is design flaws like cooling port mismatches with standard SBC gaskets that have been used for literally decades. All ports should match, and if I want to restrict flow intentionally, I could just install an orficed plug if I want to.

The lifter bores were checked and honed as per the installation instructions. The shop had a set of my lifters to go by. The tops were de-burred but I'm sure not chamfered.

As I continue to assemble, I should be able to determine if something's too tight or not fitting correctly...I have basic measuring tools if needed.

HINKSON AUTO

There are a few shops that are not very knowledgeable when it comes to machining a block correctly or should I say don't know what to look for.

Go with a BOWTIE block next time as those holes are where they should be!! but they are about 700. more money.

Hard to beat a Dart Little-M all machined at 2395.00

When building a performance engine every thing and I mean everything needs to be checked, When things are over looked its not good

Good luck with your build it should be fine for what your doing.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Wish i would have ponied up for lil m block. Wouldnt be so nervous with 1200 hp then...

How do the iron eagle or sportsman blocks look? Same as lil m?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

For your price, it's a good deal... but I didn't know about you when I got mine. I'm sure my shop does have less experience with these blocks than you do, but to this point I don't feel they've done anything "wrong".... and hopefully I won't run into anything.

HINKSON AUTO

Your block seems to be doing fine but I am sure its on the edge!!! The SHP PRO with the BBC cam tunnel, all 4 bolt billet caps and .904 lifter bores would have been a big plus.

The same!!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I have yet to find any one on the internet that has broken an shp. Have heard caps walking in lesser powered nitrous motors but mine havent yet. That gives me hope

HINKSON AUTO

Like with everything there is always a learning curve, Look at the cam bearings with 3 holes !! Don't use them as there is to much bleed off. I machine my own one hole a 6:00 and one hole at 3:30 which cures a major bleed off at all 5 journals.

But most shops have that one figured out.

Your build should be fine enjoy your ride!!

HINKSON AUTO

Most that have called about caps walking the builder did not use studs!!

I am sure main studs were added when I machined your block and you are very good with your tuning and your engine is getting it done

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

And if they came with 400 mains, that's what I'd be working on now! I just didn't want to go through getting my crank journals cut down to 350 main size, along with possible re-balancing….but maybe it wouldn't have been a big deal…

But I'm well known for overkill…

Someone I work with just acquired a newer Rustang…4.6 bored/stroked to a 5.8 he says? Twin turbo 1100 HP. Currently "street tuned" to 750 HP supposedly.

-On a stock block. He bought it that way, and these are not the cheaper flea bay turbos…they are top notch brand. Two 57mm -I'm sure the previous owner that built it took a huge loss. I'm not a Rustang fan, but…wow. It's a nice car!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

On another note, I traded in my Canton 13-083 drag race pan for another Canton 15-244 oil pan in hopes my Dyno Dons Y pipe will go under this pan.....but that is a whole other post in a different area. Got a call from my machine shop that it just arrived, so I need to go pick it up.

At least this one is specifically designed to fit an F-body....I'll see. I should start getting the heads on the engine middle of next week, and begin checking the valve train geometry to make sure my old push rods will still work with these new heads and block that was decked. Hopefully they will, but if not guess I'll be getting new P rods.

Glad I bought a checking spring and an adjustable push rod checker long ago....

Just cleaning parts, which is a big part of the job and admittedly not the most glamorous ....I'm trying to decide once I clean up my little blower and intake....should I clear coat it? They are both natural finish...not polished. I'm a little concerned the clear might flake off after a while.

I actually also thought about painting the blower satin black...but black absorbs heat...kinda counter-productive IMO....

HINKSON AUTO

Dart Does offer an SHP and SHP PRO block with 400 mains.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Wow…I see that.

Did they just start making them again or something within the last few months? I DO see them on the Jeg's web site now….. I could have sworn I was looking at all their blocks on the Dart website at least a dozen different times, and I only found 1 or 2 piece RMS SHP blocks with only 350 mains….really!

And I didn't see any SHP Pro blocks whatsoever. Oh well….It really doesn't matter since I got the Little M for just 300 more than the SHP costs….Jeg's had it on sale with the steel billet main caps. I got my order in before AFR and Dart increased their prices for this year.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Anyways, I got the new Canton oil pan back to the garage and did a cursory quick fit check to see if there was any interference, and it didn't disappoint ….of course there is! Pics:



I didn't take time to rotate the crank yet, but it appears the sides of the pan are tight against the main caps - especially on one side. I used a little bluing to get an idea of where it was hitting.

I'm not thinking at this point that's it's a big deal….the pan will go down flush if I push a little and all the bolts align, but the sides of those caps will be right against the pan wall.

The only slight concern is that it might rattle or something….but I kinda doubt it…..what do you guys think? Big deal or no?

HINKSON AUTO

Those blocks came out in October no much advertising except from a flyer dart sent to me.

I don't think they are even on the Dart site.

HINKSON AUTO

Those blocks came out in October no much advertising except from a flyer dart sent to me.

Here is a link I posted on the CT forum on October 11 th

http://www.chevelles.com/search/

I don't think they are even on the Dart site.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

You link leads me to CT search….If they (SHP 400 main blocks) came out in October, I could have gotten it. All they had to do is update their web site.

If Dart doesn't realize by now that the net is a good chunk of their sales, I suppose they never will.

Again, I most likely would have gotten what I have now for the price I paid, but it would have been nice knowing I had another choice.

Hard to believe after all this discussion about cooling ports, but I finally thought enough to take the head gasket to make sure everything lined up on my new AFR heads….and no issues there…everything's fine. I even dumped the 6 point (hex) ARP head bolts I used on my old engine and got the 12 point ARP bolts that AFR recommended. They (AFR) says it'll make it easier when I need to re-torque the heads after I heat cycle the engine.

I "think" I have everything I need to continue reassembly next week….but if history dictates, I forgot something.

Oh yeah - I don't have an oil pan gasket…and I never got a fan controller for my second cooling fan….there's two!

I still need to install my MSD box, and generally clean up some wiring….you know...stuff that I can actually get to easier with my engine out.

I need to paint this engine too! The bare cast iron look doesn't do it for me. Thinking of just going black again…less work since it'll never look dirty…

Any thoughts on the sides of the main bearing caps being so tight against the pan? It must be pretty common with these blocks.

Again, I'm thinking it shouldn't be an issue but if my oil pan is "buzzing" while it's running, I won't be happy…

EDIT: Also looking for opinions on how to best clean up my as cast aluminum intake and blower. I've used wheel cleaner in the past, and it seemed to do pretty well but if there's something better let me know before I install them! Also has anyone tried clear coating those kind of parts to keep them looking good??….or will it flake off or turn yellow?

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I think it's not an issue. Those pans are so stiff, I can't imagine a "panel" mode natural frequency low enough to ever come into play.

skinny z

Re-torque the head bolts? That is a major pain in the butt.
I've never re-torqued a set of heads then again I've never run a boosted application.
I suppose that's a good question to ask the crew here.
Who re-torques cylinder heads?

1gary

Blast walnut shells.These guys are experts on what to use and how to use it.

http://www.tptools.com/Walnut-Shells...*walnut+shells

A better view of what they offer.Call them for advise.By far much better than what Eastwood offers.

http://www.tptools.com/Most-Popular-Abrasives.html

1gary

We do and have for yrs on our race engines.We built a test stand that we did limited travel with as a vendor to run in front of customers what we sold.Then realized on the tube frame cars for our racing operation really didn't need it because of the accessibility the cars have.So we sold the test stand.Then moving on to RED's it is easy to re-torque heads.

I think is is a good idea to re-torque.Well not really re-torque,but to do a torque check.

skinny z

I have the same pan and while I wouldn't have the interference issue you have as I have a stock block, I did find that one of the bungs welded to the pan was either poorly threaded or full of welding slag. I had to run a 1/2" NPT tap through it. I discovered this after it was installed in the chassis. That meant a lot of flushing with solvents to clear the pan of the tapping debris.

Have you considered clear anodizing? I'm uncertain as to how this may effect the clearences in the blower housing though.
Clear coating is another option just like an OEM aluminum wheel. With the parts off the vehicle you could do a thorough job of cleaning (perhaps media blasting as Gary suggested), and then a spray bomb or specialty shop clear finish.

HINKSON AUTO

That's Why I try to post post on all the forums to let people know whats going on with Dart and there products.

SHP block all machined is 1895.00 compared to a Little-M is 2395.00 all machined its only a saving of 500.00 dollars you made the right choice.

Stay away from the Chinese one piece pan gaskets!! The ones Chris sells http://www.straubtechnologies.com/ seem to be the best I have used and have used them for 25 years or so.

If you are using Felpro gaskets they are preflattened and do not need to be retorqued!!!!

Good luck with your build!!!!

1gary

As far as Felpro gaskets are concerned a predetermined thickness,yes.Point is Felpro can not predict the mixing bowl of materials involved in a build.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

With head studs and cometic gaskets never had them lose torque after a heat cycle and tighten them any further than they were

HINKSON AUTO

I have checked a couple engines over the years while on the dyno always turned out to be a waste of time!!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I didn't think so either, but wanted to get someone else's opinion too…thx!

Last summer, one of my buddies didn't re-torque either, and his is/was a freshly rebuilt 400 short block that he also put brand new Dart heads on.

A week after he got it together he took a 200 mile trip up north. On the way back he looked in the rear view mirror and noticed it was smoking. Checked the oil and it was milky.

-Finished driving it home, and looked back over his Dart instruction sheet which said he needs to re-torque the heads. He didn't do that on his previous aluminum heads…but he figured at that point, what did he have to lose?

After re-torque (which was a PITA BTW) and flushing milky oil out (3 oil changes) - it all stayed clear and didn't smoke at all. He could only assume his head gasket was leaking..he dodged a bullet…

What was odd, is he had Edelcrock heads on it before that he NEVER re-torqued and had no issues…go figure..
Thanks! I'll look closer at it after work!
After hearing that about your Canton pan, I'll definitely check mine now. I bought a plug to put in where an optional oil level sensor would normally go…

No way I'm taking this blower apart…I'm talking external looks only! I was thinking the same…something like the clear coat they put on wheels I could spray on after I get it clean.
Thanks - I'll take a closer look at that gasket later. Honestly, I normally use the old style cork/rubber gaskets. If you put them on right, they won't leak. But I've tried the one piece type in the past, and it leaked! The one piece used to cost like 65 bucks! I see they've dropped in price.

No head studs here….just ARP 12 point bolts….

Hopefully it won't happen, but I've always thought if I used head studs and I had to replace a head gasket, I'd need to pull the engine to get the heads off. I could be wrong, but I can see it making it more difficult at least?? It's said and done now…I'm sticking with bolts this round…

I'm just assuming if studs are used, they hold their torque better?

1gary

When you call TIP ask them what to finish coat should be to keep it looking good.

Procharged GTA

We re- torque our head gaskets on our stuff with the engine still on the engine stand....we install and torque heads in 3 steps..... then we blow heat guns into the end water ports on the heads for 45 minutes to 1 hour on each head, (this gets the head and block extremely hot to the touch from it blowing through the coolant passages).... then we go back over them and recheck torque. We have never had a problem using this method, and is much easier than doing it after installed in the car. This is the same method Nelson Racing Engines uses..... they build some really high powered turbo street stuff..... usually 1500+ hp.

Brian

skinny z

Excellent case in point. How in the world would you get to the head bolts on one of his engines after it's installed? Interesting trick. I've taken a similar approach to painting headers. Put the heat gun to it and get them nice and toasty.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Never retorqued head gaskets on my builds and never had a problem lol.

HINKSON AUTO

I build a lot of circle track engines and so far after a season of running have never found that the head bolts or head studs were loose.

The old GM metal shim gasket are a different story!!

skinny z

AFR, Brodix, OEM Vortec, RHS iron, all installed without re-torquing (despite AFRs suggestion on their website) and haven't experienced a head gasket failure. All of these with a composite graphite gasket (.026").
There was one occasion, after a top end rebuild and the engine had been heat cycled several times, that while lashing the valves I noticed a small drop of coolant under one of the head bolts. Was this a loosening due to not being retorqued? I have no idea. I will say that I reapplied the teflon based sealer, torqued the bolt and never saw a problem again.
It did get me to wondering and then to my posting the question here (with thanks to Confuzed1 on the loan of his thread).

Procharged GTA

To be honest...we have never found any that had lost their torque after the method we use either...All we use are either Cometic or Felpro MLS gaskets.... it's just one of those steps we do for piece of mind, just incase something were to happen to a head gasket, we know it wasn't because we didn't retorque. Anything can happen when there is 25+ lbs of boost in the equation . Back in the day, dad never did retorque anything....and never once had a head gasket failure....but this was with either Naturally Aspirated or small boost street stuff......

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

As you guys are aware, I wouldn't define this build as either high boost and certainly not 1500+ HP !!! But that seems like a really slick way to do it! It's like heat cycling the whole engine while it's still out of the car....

I've never had an issue either....this is probably the sixth or so engine I've built over my years, and I've never had a head gasket leak....had oil wicking up threads on intake bolts once (old Dodge LA engines were good for that)
-But - this is my first build with aluminum heads. Instructions on iron heads never mention re-torque since they don't expand with heat like aluminum I'm assuming.

Honestly, these MLS gaskets remind me a lot of the old steel shim gaskets...3 layers of them....another new thing for me since up to this point I've always used the ole Fel-Pro composite gaskets. But everyone I spoke to rants and raves about how great these MLS gaskets are, so.....

No, I don't mind....question away!

68Strat

iTrader: (3)

Learning so much from this thread! Awesome.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Haha....

Yeah, I'm pretty good at teaching everyone what NOT to do!

Had half the day off work....began the tedious job of prepping the block for paint. I wanted to leave the brass freeze plugs bare... But they'll probably look like crap in a year or so anyway , so their getting painted..

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

....and painted. This is the very first time I actually used primer on a block before paint. Never had an issue before, but I figured what the heck...they sell it right? Lol

Now watch the stuff start flaking off in a few months!! Looks decent for now though..