Questions about valve stem seal procedure
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Junior Member
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 33
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From: NC
Car: '87 iroc
Engine: V8 TPI
Questions about valve stem seal procedure
I've had some issues with my engine that I've been trying to fix the past few weeks and I'm not sure how to proceed. I'd be grateful for any help/advice.
Some background info:
87 iroc 305 V8 TPI, automatic
During the standard tune-ups, I noticed the dist. was very rusty when swapping the rotor and cap. After replacing the disributor, well, things have been off ever since. When I dropped it in, it seems like it somehow went in off by about 1 spark plug. Meaning, the old one was pointing at #6 and the new one dropped in at #3. Guess it somehow happened to rotate the oil pump drive shaft? But no big deal, right? It can be corrected in a number of ways. But the firing was still getting thrown off due to plugs getting oil-fouled. (infamous smoke during start-up) So I bit the bullet and picked up new stem seals.
I had also realized the balancer's outer ring had spun. Wasn't til I pulled it that I learned how bad it was. Outer ring was so far back, it was rubbing/grinding against the timing cover (!) and would have likely separated entirely otherwise. This hadn't happened recently, the exposed part of the inner ring was extremely rusted.
So down to business:
I've replaced all the valve stem seals using an air compressor to hold the valves up. This was a fairly major job, and I want to make sure I didn't break anything. Some questions/concerns were raised during the procedure that I need to clear up before I can sleep at night and feel less terrified to crank her back up.
1) Compressing the cylinder
Sometimes the engine would get cranked backwards. I guess this makes sense in theory, if the piston was approaching its TDC, the pressure would force it back down to the bottom of the compression stroke? Everywhere says to not crank the engine backwards by hand, so this seems like a Bad Thing. Is it?
2) I'm to the point of adjusting the rocker arms back down using the FSM procedure. After doing the valves at #1 TDC, I tried to crank around to #6 TDC but it is extremely difficult. I've cranked it by hand before and it wasn't nearly as hard. Plugs removed, shifted to neutral. I haven't even budged it yet, too scared of breaking the bolt or striping the snout. What gives? The bolt actually torqued down a bit at first, the crankshaft was being so stubborn. (It had been removed since I swapped the balancer) So:
Did the crank pulley bolt get overtorqued? The balancer got pretty difficult to push on any further when I installed it (using proper tools) so I just stopped there. Crankshaft pulley looked like it lined up with the others, but the balancer may have still been out a tiny bit and the crank bolt pushed it a little further? I was thinking of backing it out and using that balancer installer tool again to try to crank to #6. What else could be keeping it from cranking though? Tighter rocker nuts? Car hasnt run in at least a week or two, lack of lubrication?
Looking for an informed opinion before I start retorquing bolts and squirting oil into the cylinder. Also would like to put my mind at ease about the engine getting cranked in revrse during the valve job! It made some weird noise when it did it too. That kind of groan sorta noise of metal being put under stress, maybe? Or again, lack of cylinder lubrication? Not any scraping or grinding noise, but as pressure built up, it would do this Grr Grr Grr stuttering sound just a few times and I'd see the engine crank either forward or backward at each noise.
Some background info:
87 iroc 305 V8 TPI, automatic
During the standard tune-ups, I noticed the dist. was very rusty when swapping the rotor and cap. After replacing the disributor, well, things have been off ever since. When I dropped it in, it seems like it somehow went in off by about 1 spark plug. Meaning, the old one was pointing at #6 and the new one dropped in at #3. Guess it somehow happened to rotate the oil pump drive shaft? But no big deal, right? It can be corrected in a number of ways. But the firing was still getting thrown off due to plugs getting oil-fouled. (infamous smoke during start-up) So I bit the bullet and picked up new stem seals.
I had also realized the balancer's outer ring had spun. Wasn't til I pulled it that I learned how bad it was. Outer ring was so far back, it was rubbing/grinding against the timing cover (!) and would have likely separated entirely otherwise. This hadn't happened recently, the exposed part of the inner ring was extremely rusted.
So down to business:
I've replaced all the valve stem seals using an air compressor to hold the valves up. This was a fairly major job, and I want to make sure I didn't break anything. Some questions/concerns were raised during the procedure that I need to clear up before I can sleep at night and feel less terrified to crank her back up.
1) Compressing the cylinder
Sometimes the engine would get cranked backwards. I guess this makes sense in theory, if the piston was approaching its TDC, the pressure would force it back down to the bottom of the compression stroke? Everywhere says to not crank the engine backwards by hand, so this seems like a Bad Thing. Is it?
2) I'm to the point of adjusting the rocker arms back down using the FSM procedure. After doing the valves at #1 TDC, I tried to crank around to #6 TDC but it is extremely difficult. I've cranked it by hand before and it wasn't nearly as hard. Plugs removed, shifted to neutral. I haven't even budged it yet, too scared of breaking the bolt or striping the snout. What gives? The bolt actually torqued down a bit at first, the crankshaft was being so stubborn. (It had been removed since I swapped the balancer) So:
Did the crank pulley bolt get overtorqued? The balancer got pretty difficult to push on any further when I installed it (using proper tools) so I just stopped there. Crankshaft pulley looked like it lined up with the others, but the balancer may have still been out a tiny bit and the crank bolt pushed it a little further? I was thinking of backing it out and using that balancer installer tool again to try to crank to #6. What else could be keeping it from cranking though? Tighter rocker nuts? Car hasnt run in at least a week or two, lack of lubrication?
Looking for an informed opinion before I start retorquing bolts and squirting oil into the cylinder. Also would like to put my mind at ease about the engine getting cranked in revrse during the valve job! It made some weird noise when it did it too. That kind of groan sorta noise of metal being put under stress, maybe? Or again, lack of cylinder lubrication? Not any scraping or grinding noise, but as pressure built up, it would do this Grr Grr Grr stuttering sound just a few times and I'd see the engine crank either forward or backward at each noise.
Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 100
Likes: 1
From: Eastern PA
Car: 1988 GTA
Engine: VIN F 305 TPI
Transmission: AUto
Re: Questions about valve stem seal procedure
If you have all the valves closed because none are adjusted, then every cylinder that is on the upstroke is building to over 120 psi and every one on the down stroke is trying to pull a vacuum. Lets guess that 6 are on the upstroke with a bore of 4.125 ". Each cylinder has a surface area of 13.36". Time 6 = 80 sqin. times 120psi = about 9600 pounds. If the stroke is 3.75 then the arm of the crank is 1.875 so 9600 psi acting at and average of 1/2 of 1.875" (some are at 90° some at more or less) = .93" and your wrench is 20" for a mechanical advantage of 21.3 you would need to push with 450 pounds.
Are you sure that the valves are at least opening a little while you try to turn it?
Are you sure that the valves are at least opening a little while you try to turn it?
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,938
Likes: 99
From: Huntsville AL
Car: 88GTA
Engine: 5.7TPI
Transmission: Auto
Axle/Gears: 3.27
Re: Questions about valve stem seal procedure
If you have all the valves closed because none are adjusted, then every cylinder that is on the upstroke is building to over 120 psi and every one on the down stroke is trying to pull a vacuum. Lets guess that 6 are on the upstroke with a bore of 4.125 ". Each cylinder has a surface area of 13.36". Time 6 = 80 sqin. times 120psi = about 9600 pounds. If the stroke is 3.75 then the arm of the crank is 1.875 so 9600 psi acting at and average of 1/2 of 1.875" (some are at 90° some at more or less) = .93" and your wrench is 20" for a mechanical advantage of 21.3 you would need to push with 450 pounds.
Are you sure that the valves are at least opening a little while you try to turn it?
Are you sure that the valves are at least opening a little while you try to turn it?
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: NC
Car: '87 iroc
Engine: V8 TPI
Re: Questions about valve stem seal procedure
Wow that definitely helped me understand what all was working against me....450 lbs huh? Well I've got a 2.5 ton floor jack, I should be able to get it lined up to the end of the wrench, that should be more than enough..............................
-I had adjusted half the valves at #6 TDC
-The rest were loose, so yep half the valves were all closed
-I'd already put all the spark plugs back in so I was fighting compression (don't know why I even tried with em in..)
So yesterday, I pulled all the plugs (heh, I can pull em all in about 5 minutes now), took out the crankshaft bolt, and put the balancer installer bolt assembly in the snout, so no worries of snapping off a bolt head.
Annnnnd....it still was pretty tough to crank, got it turned about a 1/4th of the way and figured it was still needing way too much torque, so gave it a rest.
But made excellent progress today though! Quick shot of WD40 into all the cylinders did the trick. It cranked like nobody's business. Couldn't have been needing more than about 20-30lbs of torque, plus I was only using a 10" wrench..
So got it cranked to #1 TDC, adjusted those valves, then cranked back over to #6 again to readjust those valves (I'd made the mistake of using push rod spin instead of rocking the rocker arms, so they'd been about 1 turn too tight.
Just need to bolt everything back on now and see what happens!
-I had adjusted half the valves at #6 TDC
-The rest were loose, so yep half the valves were all closed
-I'd already put all the spark plugs back in so I was fighting compression (don't know why I even tried with em in..)
So yesterday, I pulled all the plugs (heh, I can pull em all in about 5 minutes now), took out the crankshaft bolt, and put the balancer installer bolt assembly in the snout, so no worries of snapping off a bolt head.
Annnnnd....it still was pretty tough to crank, got it turned about a 1/4th of the way and figured it was still needing way too much torque, so gave it a rest.
But made excellent progress today though! Quick shot of WD40 into all the cylinders did the trick. It cranked like nobody's business. Couldn't have been needing more than about 20-30lbs of torque, plus I was only using a 10" wrench..
So got it cranked to #1 TDC, adjusted those valves, then cranked back over to #6 again to readjust those valves (I'd made the mistake of using push rod spin instead of rocking the rocker arms, so they'd been about 1 turn too tight.
Just need to bolt everything back on now and see what happens!
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Car: 91 z28 camaro
Engine: 305 tpi
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 410 posi
Re: Questions about valve stem seal procedure
Hope its ok to post my question here but anyways new to doing valve seals but doing the rope method to keep the valves up can I remove all the rockers and put them aside to only do all my seals first? and springs with keepers of course!...then go back and do my valve adjustments later? a lot of youtube videos show doing zero lash and seals all on one cylinder is that only to show the whole picture of whats involved. thanks for any and all help!
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Car: 91 z28 camaro
Engine: 305 tpi
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 410 posi
Re: Questions about valve stem seal procedure
And can I sum up the above post to...not to put the plugs in before setting all my valves? and from what I hear 1/4 nylon rope is whats been mentioned think a foot of it into each cylinder is enough to press against the valves? again my biggest question is doing all my seals and srings first with rockers set aside?? if I can tackle one thing at a time would be nice don't want to rush anything.
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