Hey guys.
I am wanting to build a motor. I have a stock goodwrench 350 short block. Casting number 10066036. I have found some 882 heads that I am thinking of buying. Now I am wanting to get close to 400hp. Ive been told I'm crazy but I want to try. Anywhere from 300-400. I dont want to spend a lot of money on new parts so I will be looking for used parts and trying to get whatever parts I need for that high amount for cheap as i can get them. Im going to be putting it in my 91 z28. Not worried about the rear end yet just want to get the engine done first. Any help is greatly appreciated. I have an uncle with a full machine shop who can help with the machine work. Also I dont want to take the bottom end apart and keep the TPI system. Please recommendations, help, knowledge, guidance, or whatever you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance

 

882s need to be milled, a bunch. "0" deck the block and use flat top pistons. buy a cam made for the TPI. now ,really. you MUST strip it down to the bare block and start over. since you have access to a machine shop , it should be no problem. you want a good crank ,steel not cast. you need to pay attention to the rods. check them for cracks re size them ARP bolts. it aint cheap. but if you want it right you gotta pay to play.

 

I really didnt want to take apart the bottom end cuz its all put together. Would heads off the 305 tpi motor work or is that even more work? I was thinking of using the cam out of the 305 since it is the same cam for the 350 but I can get a new one. it does have the holes for the cam plate to bolt down and hold. So how would I keep it in?

 

The 882s are pretty mech the same heads that you have on the goodwrench crate. They are both 76cc smogger heads, dont flow very well, etc.

The 305 heads are no better really.

The 96-00 L31 062/906 vortecs would be the best production heads to run, but keeping the TPI would be harder/higher to do with vortecs. I think the only two intakes that would work in that combo would be the stealth ram and the edelbrock
Pro-Flo XT.

You will not get much power gain with any of the smogger heads or 1980's/90's TBI heads.

If you want performance you need a performance cam, not some other stock cam. Stock cams do not hold valves open long enough, nor lift the valves enough to let enough air through the engine.

You don't want to go wild with the cam, just one that matches your combo and usages well.

If the bottom end of the goodwrench is in good shape, no need to tear into it yet. Just keep in mine they have like 10cc dish pistons so it will be hard to get your compression into the good target range.

You will need to use the fel pro 1094 head gaskets (.015" thick) and 60-64cc heads to get your compression in the 9.7 to 10.2 range

 

There are much better options than 882 heads. They are the best of the worst. Some used Vortecs are even better than 882's.

 

So buying some vortecs would be easiest and cheapest just have to get a vortec intake manifold for the tpi than modify the tpi?

When you say "stealth ram and the edelbrock" are you talking about intake manifolds that is the base for the tpi or complete intakes?

Im not good with cc's so any recommendation on 60-64cc heads? Any stock vortec heads with those cc's?

So I will forget about the 882 heads and get rid of all the other 305 stuff? Do people buy 305 stuff here or just junk it?

 

Vortec heads are listed as 64cc, but ever set I have CC'ed has came in at 62/63cc.

There is a bunch of good 64cc heads but not stock production stuff. It would be new aftermarket heads. Most stock chevy heads are junk for performance.

From a production chevy engine head the vortec heads are top dog, next would be some of the old 1960's, early 70's double hump heads like the 461, 461x, 462, 492, ... Then I guess I would say the L98 alum corvette heads, then the L98 iron F body heads.

 

Ya your going to have to modify or replace the intake to make any good top end power. I would get a stealth ram intake and vortec heads. Your also going to want to upgrade your injectors and get a larger throttle body. Your going to need a cam that is designed for fuel injection that is larger. I would look for something that has a max RPM of 6,000 or a little lower and is split pattern meaning it has more duration and some times more lift on the exhaust side. I like the LT4 hot cam it would be a good cam for a set up like this and will get you in the ball park for HP your looking for. It would probably be a little under 400HP though. The high HP mark would be a lot cheaper if you carbureted the motor. Even after you build the motor your going to have to tune it. I have the vortec heads on my Camaro with a cam just a little smaller than the LT4 hot cam and it sounds awesome mine is carbureted though. I have only drove it once and that was before the new carburetor which runs way better than the old one so I cant comment too much on the set up yet but I can tell it has a lot of torque.

 

first, what is the intended use of the car? a daily driver? a drag car? if you want it to be a reliable daily driver that you just want to DRIVE. you can forget about all that race stuff. as it gets expensive fast. you could, if the parts you have on hand are sound. just put together what you have and get it done for under $1,000. and be happy. if, on the other hand you want to set the world on fire, well, you will need a mountain of money. speed and power ARE NOT CHEAP

 

Which is also 40+ year old technology. 40+ year old heads will not be a direct bolt on. By the time you're finished freshing them up to use them, a set a cast Dart Sportsmans will still be better right out of the box for less money.

Forget about chamber cc size. A small chamber shrouds the valves. If you need to make more power, the engine needs to breath which means larger valves and passages that flow more air. Just pick a chamber size that allows larger valves and produces a compression ratio that will work with the grade of fuel you want to use. Keeping it below 9:1 means you can run regular fuel. Higher than that and you'll need to be always filling up with mid grade or premium to keep the fuel from detonating causing knock. If the engine has a knock sensor, it will detect the knock, retard the timing to try and eliminate it and you're experience a loss of power.

 

So I bought an intake manifold from an 80s 14014432 corvette . If carb is the way to go that is cheaper than buying a stealth ram ok. The guy gave me a deal the intake and 882 heads for 150. So any potential here or just go trade them or something for some vortec heads off a truck. I found some 462 camel hump heads. But mostly around here have LT1 heads, 305 heads, and ford heads so not much to choose from.

 

I 100% agree with you. Been that route years ago with a set of 462 heads.

I was just pointing out, not very many good performance production heads.

 

The vortec heads will gain 35 HP over the 882's

 

I have run both 882 and vortec heads on the same motor. All I have to say is forget the 882s.

 

You still can make a pretty fast car with stock heads. Most of the small blocks me, my friend and family have built have had stock heads on them. Most with smog low compression 350s too. You can build a solid 13 sec every day driver with the parts you have with out spending a whole lot. I would shoot for a low 300 HP motor and plan on getting some lower gears if you have the 2.73 or 3.08 rear. If you have 3.23 or 3.43 rear keep it. I would also plan on getting a small stall converter depending on the cam you chose and a shift kit. A cam like sum 1785 would be a good mild street cam. It will work with your low compression and will not spin above the breathing capabilities of your heads. I would use it with a 2,000 RPM stall and 3.42 gears. I have this same cam siting on a shelf waiting for me to use it in a future sleeper project. Your at the point were your project is still cheep and using the parts you have might be a good idea depending on how long building it better would take you. A stock head low compression motor can still be a fun car.

 

Ive never heard much good on the 882s but I helped build a high 12sec car using camel humps once. They are decent especially if free but I would rather have the vortecs all you have to do to them is get better springs for maybe $100 and you can run a cam up to 525 or so lift.

 

I still have some camel heads in my garage from when I had a SBC in the car. 2.02/1.60 valves and I spend an entire weekend hogging out the ports and bowls. A 383 was able to push the car into the high 11's before I threw a rod. I know there are 5 visibly bent valves in the heads but they should all be replaced if I ever decide to put the heads on another engine.

 

So I think vortec is the way Im going.I found a pair of vortec heads, the guy said the casting number is 062/906 with triple humps. Not sure what that means. So I will get those and use these vortec heads and get the tpi edelbrock vortec manifold.
Now my question for cams. desired cam is for daily driving, helping wake the engine up or squeeze performance out of it without having a lumpy idle. Also Im not sure what to get because I dont know how it is secured in the block.

 

With a flat tappet cam, the lifters holds the cam in place. The lobes have a slight angle to them and when lifters sits on lobes and valves are adjusted the cam don't/can't walk.

Roller cams needs a retainer plate/thrust button to keep cam in place cause the roller wheels on lifters are smooth and cam lobes are cut straight.

Your 305 TPI is a roller cam engine and your 350 is a flat tappet (non roller) engine.

You can not use a factory roller cam in a non roller block

 

Oh wow did not know that. Thanks for telling me. Would have ended up putting my roller cam in and had no idea.
Now need to figure out the cam and lifter that needs to be run with the 062 vortec heads with the tpi

 

Hate to break it to ya but building a 350-400hp engine using your TPI can be done but will be very painstaking and it will not be cheap by any means! You will get into all sorts of headaches trying to tune it at the very least when you go to putting in a more aggressive camshaft which will have to be done. Then you gotta think of better intake, runners,injectors, etc etc the list goes on and on. Now I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I hope you realize what you getn in to. Going carb makes your project so much easier to achieve the HP you are going after.

 

I have a carb intake but I want to stay fuel injected but not buy a $1000 tpis or something that expensive. Like my title says I'm new to this so wouldn't going to carb mean I have to change fuel pumps from electrical to mechanical?

 

Not necessarily. Fuel pressure regulators is the route a lot of folks go especially with newer style blocks that aren't set up for mechanical fuel pumps.

 

So say I switch to carb to use the vortec heads I would need to get a carb vortec manifold? Or just use the carb intake I have and use say 462 heads or possibly even the 882 heads I have.

Yeah I've been told getting tpi's hp up high is hard. I found some edelbrock runner for it if that can help and make it a little easier. Trying to do all the modding buying parts and everything isn't easy especially when not buying new but only used parts off craigslist or eBay.

 

To use the vortec heads you have to use a vortec-specific manifold. Now days on ebay etc. you can get em used cheap. Maybe $100-$120. I would not use the 882s period end of sentence. But like I said before the camel humps aint bad especially if they are in good shape and you already have a manifold to go with em.

 

If you want high HP your car is going to have a lumpy idle. I will take a video of my car later after my phone charges. My car I am estimating to have 350 HP at the flywheel. It is a guess on HP but I am sure I am very close. My car is a little lumpy and if you build for the HP you want it will too. Looks like your block is non roller so I would stick to a hydraulic flat tappet cam. The RPM air gap with the vortec heads would probably be your best bet. I have not tried the RPM with vortec heads but have used it on older heads. I am using the EPS intake on my motor but I have not drove the car more than around he block yet so I cant tell ya much more than it has great throttle response and good low end torque. In the end he fuel injection will cost your more. If you get a vortec lower for your TPI your still going to have to get new runners, throttle body, and injectors to support the HP your looking for and have the computer tuned. My set up for intake and carb was $650 but that's not including the throttle bracket, intake bolts, intake gaskets, water passage plugs, carb studs, return spring don't forget to add extra to your budget because the little things like this start to add up. You can knock about $200 off of what I spent still using new parts if you use different parts and probably get the same results. I just like edelbrock intakes and have always wanted a holley street avenger but I am sure a summit intake and edelbrock carb would have worked just as good.

 

K if you look at my thread New build I have a new video showing the idle with my cam. This is about what a 350 to 400 HP cam will idle like. My car is probably around 350 HP. You could get a smoother idle with a different cam and make similar HP but not a whole lot better idle. I probably could have ground it on a wider LSA, shortened the duration and had more lift to get the same results but I want it to lope a little.

 

If he wants to stick with the factory TPI setup, what about a set of the 14101128 Corvette Aluminum heads?

 

So trying to sell the 882 heads and get rid of them.
Found a pair of 062/906 vortec heads. Need a edelbrock intake for a carb, what is a good one that allows breathing? Any links to a vortec intake you guys suggest?

Also I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to choose a carb that matches the cam to maximize performance out of the two.

Am I trying to get a 62/63 or higher? Can I change that to help or change valves to bigger ones to allow more breathing perhaps?

What Cam do i get. idk where to look for it and not sure what kind seeing how its not a roller motor. Maybe some valve springs to help or change with the cam/lifter combo. Any links for recommended cams or cam/lifter combos? Any links will help so I can ball park.

So guys if you have links to any parts you suggest that would be great so I can see what I'm looking at and kind of get an idea of what I'm putting together and an idea of prices

Also I don't have a timing chain and a distributor so I need one for all this. It's a bare block except for cranks and Pistons. Nothing else on it

 

I like the sound, thats right around perfect sound I want. I just dont really like the sound of the lumpy idles that sound like its dying. its annoying to listen to for me but I like your sound

 

Ok... Your looking for a budget minded build so I will post links to my recommended
budget based parts that would work good for you.

Vortec heads... Stock valves, don't go trying to install larger valves or what not. The vortec head as is, is the highest flow, best production (stock factory) gen 1 sbc head ever

Any of these intakes would work great
http://www.competitionproducts.com/P.../#.VNry6ubF_bM
http://www.competitionproducts.com/P.../#.VNry8ubF_bM
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-226018/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wnd-8121/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pfs-52028/overview/

If it was me, I would go with that last one, crosswinds for $176

Cam... Here is what I recommend.. http://www.competitionproducts.com/E.../#.VNr08ebF_bM $147 cam, lifters, springs, valve locks, valve seals.

This is a 214/224@.050" cam which is a nice mild performance size. It will give a slight lope only enough to tell it's not stock. Makes a lot of low and mid range power and will pull good to about 5300 rpm.

I have used that very cam in quite a few 350 engines.

Run a 600 cfm carb. Holley or edelbrock, your pick. I really like Edelbrock carbs for street engines. I have an edelbrock 600 on my vortec headed 355 in my S10, and have a Holley 750 on my Brodix headed 355 in my camaro.

Use Fel pro MS 98000 T intake gaskets, Fel pro 1094 head gaskets

With a set of 1-5/8" tube headers and good aftermarket Y pipe and exhaust this will be a mean street engine. In the 350-375 HP range easy.

 

Wow exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Although I've never heard of competition products.
Also does a distributor and a water pump play a big part because I need those too along with a timing chain. The block is completely bare except for the crank and Pistons

 

competition products have almost everything you need and in expensixe to boot. if I were you I would get their catalog. you will be pleasantly surprised

 

throw all that junk in the trash.

Get a 383 crate engine with a really good set of heads
buy a 700 CFM carb.
done

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hp...a/instructions

if you think you can save money get the short block 383 and buy the heads separately.

 

I don't have the money that's why I don't go buy an engine. If I had the money to I would but I'm not trying to spend a lot of money buying that I might as well go LS.

 

You get what you pay for.
Your time spent scavenging out-dated parts is worth something.

when building a car you only have 2 out of 3 options.

CHEAP
FAST
RELIABLE

There no such thing as a CHEAP, RELIABLE, & FAST car.

 

As far as might as go LS.. that is up to you .. there is nothing special about the LS except for the cylinder head design.

that being said there plenty of aftermarket heads for the SBC that will give any LS engine a run for the money.

The allure is any OEM junk yard LS motor will outperform a vintage SBC with antiquated OEM cylinder head designs... $500 LS truck motors a plenty in the boneyard just do a LS6 cam swap.. and have fun. with a CHEAP and RELIABLE engine. want to make it FAST ?... then you will have to spend some money LOL ...

 

 

Competition products is a great 'smaller' company. I have been buying from them for about 12 years now. NEVER have had a single prob with them.
My last big personal order from them was a set of bare brodix IK heads, valves, springs, shims, seals, locks, roller rockers, cam, lifters, pushrods, rocker arm studs, head gaskets, intake gaskets.

For your timing chain, $18 double roller http://www.competitionproducts.com/C.../#.VN0vYubF_bM

 

LOL I was looking and Lunati 10120101 is almost and exact copy of my cam. Would be a good cam with the same intake and carb I have. There is a video when you look for the cam of a 77 Camaro with vortec heads and his car sounds a lot like mine.

 

Hey man, so I don't know if it's been covered but I haven't seen anyone mention that stock production Vortec heads won't support anything past .450 lift. Like MAX .450 and I wouldn't personally even push that. It's been a while since I've researched it but in order to get decent lift out of the heads there is a decent amount of machine work that has to be done.

Now something you can do for the spring issue, is install LS series Beehive springs, sounds crazy (GEN II vs GEN III engine) but it works. Hot rod did an article on it and I've personally done it myself. Increases lift to about .550 and requires zero machining. You're going to need different retainers, 7 degree I know that much, can't remember the valve stem size.

In fact, I'll send you a PM and I can answer any questions you might have.

 

With the cam I posted for him to use the lift is .443"/.465" and comes with good springs, IIRC they are 110 # springs

That cam will work with vortecs and no machining needed, at most he will need to use +.050" locks which are $15 at competition products

 

Ya I tried to install the LS6 springs in my vortec 906 heads before I had them machined for the comp cams beehive springs and they did not fit. The valve guide boss measured .9" the inside of my beehive comp springs were .84" My machine work was machining the valve guide boss, re surface my heads, lower the valve seals but re use the stock seals cuz I feel there better than normal stock chevy seals and install screw in studs. My heads have .580" clearance between the retainer and seal and before coil bind. The cost was $580 total. That was machine work not parts If you could find some stock aluminum L98 heads you might be better off. They might not make as much power but they will not need any of the machine work I had to do to my heads and are easily capable of 350 HP. On a set of aluminum L98 heads I would run a single pattern cam like a comp magnum 270 and a duel plane intake.

 

What locks are you guys talking about?
Changing springs and retainers can help with breathing and help with lift? Which translates to room for a big cam? Just a question to try and understand more.

 

It's still over .450, I'm telling you. I wouldn't risk more than that, I've heard nothing but bad things tend to happen past .450 lift on stock vortec springs.

These are my heads as they sit now in my truck with the Beehive springs installed, no machining required. And here is an article on the upgrade by Hot Rod.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...pring-upgrade/

 

increases to that high of a lift wouldn't I need a cam with that lift or is that just to have a higher max of lift so I don't need to worry about pushing it? How do I know which beehive springs to get. Are they called that?

 

Read that article I posted. It'll explain everything.

The stock lift on vortec heads are only good to around .450 which isn't much when looking for a decent cam. In order to install basic after market springs there is machining required on the heads. The LS1 Beehive springs are a direct install that don't require machining and make your heads capable of .550 lift.

That's basically what we are talking about.

 

What is 0.450 + 0.050? That's .500" So by adding +.050 locks you add .050" extra clearance between the guides/seals and retainer.

I have built MANY vortec head engines and the lift clearance is only a slight prob.

On lower lifts under .485" all you need is good springs like howards 1.25"/1.26" OD 90-120# springs, remove the flat damper spring, and use +.050" locks if needed.

Higher lifts you need the above plus grind 3/32" off bottom of retainers, or buy diff. retainers or beehive spring set, etc

Key here is YOU must measure your guide and seal to retainer clearance and set the heads up right.

On my S10, I'm running a .484"/.512" lift cam with vortec heads. I'm using 115# springs and did the "ghetto grind" on the stock retainers and having no probs.

 

Sorry fast reading and I must have skipped over the bit about the locks. In that case, that would be the route to go. Like you said, cheaper, and if it works it works. He said he bought a set of vortecs, can you supply an PN for the locks? Also will he need to measure pushrod length? Or will stock rods work? Or do you happen to know the lengths needed?

C.

 

Oh, ok yeah if you didn't see the part about the locks then I can understand the confusion.

Here's the locks I run on most vortec head builds http://www.competitionproducts.com/V.../#.VOOIf-bF_bM

Pushrod length should ALWAYS be measured as so many things can change it, but no the vortec heads in their selfs will not change the length pushrods you need vs. any other stock iron GM head

With a hyd flat tappet cam 7.800" is the stock size.

Keep in mind that many things changes the length you need like..
Block deck height
Head gasket thickness
If heads have been milled or not
Cam style (roller vs flat tappet)
Cam base circle size
Rocker arm style
Rocker arm brand (some brands have deeper pushrod cups)

I went from GM iron heads, stamp steel roller tip rockers, hyd flat tappet cam to Brodix IK alum heads, billet alum full roller rockers, solid flat tappet cam.. Same block, same head gaskets and needed 0.250" longer pushrods