UltRoadWarrior9

Consider stealth aircraft. It's been said that they would have never been airborn if it weren't for computer(s) constantly manipulating the wing flaps in addition to what the pilot was doing. I think the same thing can be said with EFI in regards to a radical cam profile. An engine with EFI control can idle lower and steady, while a 'dumb' carb would shut down under different temp conditions. Consider me dumb, but this logic makes sense to this n00b. So I intend to head in this direction.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Keep in mind that some would argue the 165 ECM is closer to a carb than to current EFI technology!!!! LOL (I'm running the 165 too btw, just saying)

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Yeah I wasn't saying EFI is bad and carbs are the only way to get there. I was just pointing out I think your reasoning was wrong/off for wanting to stick with EFI. The way you had worded it sounded like it, you know.

Point is... Yes EFI and carb can get you to your goal, but neither one will do it with stock or stock type intake/induction parts.

For EFI you will need something like the HSR or FAST system.... Carb you will need something like an edelbrock rpm air gap or victor jr. intake and a holley 750-850 cfm HP style carb

Just to point out... Carb system gives you complete control of spark timing and fuel control as well. It's a diff type up setup... Rather than punch things into a laptop you ochange out springs, weights, bushings, idle bleeds, jets, power valves, etc.

With any std. HEI dizzy you can control your spark timing with the tension of springs, the weight of the weights, shape of the center plate, and the hole/bushing around mounting pins.

With the HP style carbs you have more control over your fueling as well cause you can adjust/change more items.

Also with new tech we now have the option of CD ignition boxes and adjustable dizzys that can allow us to push buttons or turn screws on unit to set timing curves or even hook up to a laptop and do it.

UltRoadWarrior9

LOL! Very true. I agree to that...
Hey all, this is just an experiment for me to learn the limits of the 1227165 ECM. I want to tune. And I want to build a stroker from scratch. And in order to do it right, it all has to be done by me. It's gonna take awhile, and I appreciate everyone's input!

When I start getting parts it will be pic heavy... Seen too many "383 build" threads that puff out real quick.

UltRoadWarrior9

If fuel injectors failed like IAC solenoids, I'd be with your train of thought and lean towards mechanical non computer controlled parts. But I've very rarely seen a failed fuel injector in any consumer vehicle over past 20 yrs. Most parts houses want the original FI part returned in order to study why it failed.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I went 11.4's at 118-119 in august summer air with a 165 maf based 383. 10.6 on a 150 shot. The ecm can supply the fuel

UltRoadWarrior9

Nice, so it can be done!
I downloaded a free compression ratio program from www.performancetrends.com and narrowed the cylinder head selection to the 75cc chamber.
This will give the engine a CR of close to 11:1 with flat top pistons. Says quench is @ .015...
AFR Part #'s 1036 & 1038. Only difference is angle or straight plug. I guess header choice will determine which to finally choose.

UltRoadWarrior9

They also have a simple fuel injector calculator.
@450HP, a min of 31lb/hr
@500HP, a min of 34lb/hr

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That doesnt sound right.

Quench refering to piston to head deck clearance should not be tighter than .035". Standard gaskets are typically .039-.041" thick. Ideally you want block deck even with piston crown, refered to as 0 deck.

In that case you want 65cc heads and typical 383 flat top with 4-5 cc valve reliefs, will give you 11:1 comp

UltRoadWarrior9

You're correct, I forgot about the valve reliefs because I wasn't at the point of choosing the rotating assembly so I'd assumed incorrectly for flat top with no valve relief. Also gasket thickness was incorrect @.015"...

Now I've chosen a rotating assembly from Eagle Specialty Products, Part #10623000. Valve reliefs are 5cc. It's their version with the forged crank, which I don't think I particularly need. But I like the fact there's buffer room for a little abuse. Plus it's internally balanced. Although it's $400 more compared to the cast crank external balanced kit Part #13005L000 @~$770. That kit has 7cc valve relief BTW, which would leave me 2 choices on CR, either 10.4:1 or 11.4:1...

So with AFR heads Part#1034 or 1041 (angled or straight plugs) with 65cc chamber, 'crushed' head gasket thickness of .035", valve relief of 5cc, 4.00" bore x 3.75" stroke, CR is 11.0:1 @377CI. Not a 383, unless I bore the block .030" over which I don't think I'm going to do.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats fine. It will run good with afr just up the cam size to get cranking compression down. Keep advance low and it will run fine on pump gas

Go forged crank. Much nicer piece than the eagle cast cranks

UltRoadWarrior9

Thanks for double checking me Orr, I really appreciate it.
Let me pick your brain (and/or anyone else's). What are your thoughts regarding adjustable direct drive cam gears as opposed to a typical dual timing chain setup?

EDIT: Nevermind, I see they're all not recommended for EFI systems.... Was looking at this stuff when I had my 1st '86 camaro with carb!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont know anyone using gear drives. Double roller is fairly inexpensive and works great. No need to reinvent the wheel here

UltRoadWarrior9

Yeah, I agree. Time for a reality check on my parts. Still not a complete engine, maybe 75%...

Parts @ Prices:
New 383 Cast Iron CPP Engine Block, 1 piece Rear Main Seal. Part # 88962516. $1000
New Forged Crank Rotating Assembly, Eagle Performance Products. Part #10623000. $1200
New AFR Aluminum SBC Eliminator Cylinder Heads. Part #(1034 or 1041). $1600
New FIRST Upper/Lower Intake Manifolds + TB. $1040

$4840. Not too bad for the powerplant so far. Maybe round off to $7K for the total build... Can do in 2 summers or less.

UltRoadWarrior9

This build is underway. Block has been ordered from CPP! $974+$58 shipping

UltRoadWarrior9

More links to 383 builds, I've been researching here on TGO and my books. Will collect the best and deposit them here... I'm actually looking for a really well detailed 383 build, with lots of pics, a guy had there before I even joined. Still looking...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...ing-build.html

Will start the 377 build thread over on Engine Swap Topic once the CPP block gets here. Still not even got the confirmation email from them yet...

UltRoadWarrior9

Still looking for that build... Still doing research... Still sticking with the First for induction...

Still waiting for CPP email. Maybe tracking # lol? $1000! Where is my chunk of metal. jeezus christ forgive me for being so impatient. But really , where is my ****ing confirmation # or some **** email. WTF! Maybe I'll go to a ****ing junkyard next time.

In the mean time I want to switch my current MAF to MAP as I don't want to run into a possible headroom issue with the original MAF and potentially out of range/low resolution airflow. Also, more importantly I'd like a clean and simple cold air intake setup without the mess of an expensive MAF sensor in the middle of the cold air tubing. Would have to switch ECM to the 1227730 and some rewiring with a couple new parts, I believe.
Great article here on similar info, plus more: https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ecm_swap_730/

Also,
From this thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...195-383-a.html
Nice pic with cold air intake although MAF...

UltRoadWarrior9

After about 5hrs of reading/searching, I finally hit a couple threads that opened up my eyes:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...questions.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...owing-tpi.html

and here:
http://www.strokerengine.com/TPIsystems.html

Going with the TPiS miniram and XFI280 cam from Comp Cams. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-08-467-8

Originally wanted max low RPM torque to come in at 3K and max HP to come in to about 5K so as not to abuse the stroker. But when putting money into stronger parts, especially like a forged crank, it only makes sense to grab that HP that's possible in the 6K RPM range. And this is only possible with the shortest intake runners from what I've read. I'm about 7 years behind the power curve, sorry.

UltRoadWarrior9

NIX the miniram...
Found 2 cranks with 3.8" stroke. Huge price difference @$275 for Eagle cast vs $1200 for CPP forged. Have to limit cost so going with the Eagle cast crank. This is my first engine build
HSR MPFI intake is now my choice. So now that's finally been sorted out, need to do reconsider the expensive aluminum AFR heads. Will need aluminum heads for sure...

EDIT: So the difference from 3.75" stroke crank to 3.8" stroke combined with a 4.00" bore block, will make this close to a 383CI engine. I was unable to find a rotating assembly for a 3.8" stroker crank, so I'll have to search out the rods and pistons to complete the bottom end. With the current 5CC chamber 195CC AFR heads, CR is bumped up to 11.1:1.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Dont run 3.8

Thats for undecked blocks to make them zero deck. Too expensive for what you get

You'll be finishing machining your block to whatever deck height you want so run 3.75" crank and shoot for 9.0-9.015 deck. 9 leaves pistons 0 deck. 9.015 leaves them .015" in hole. Gasket accordingly for optimal quench

Eagle forged 3.75 is like 500$

Cheaper heads look at dart shp 180 or jegs brand 195's
Springs will need changed tho to match the xfi cam if you run one of those cams

Fred SS

iTrader: (3)

Lots of good info in this thread. I've been thinking of doing a 383 myself.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Heads... Profiler or jegs house brand or Brodix IK 200 or wild thing 210

UltRoadWarrior9

I've read the HSR has a problem where the rear plugs are running rich when running a batch type FI as as seen on the OEM TPI for 1986 with the 1227165 ECM? Also, the HSR doesn't allow my strut tower brace to clear as it sits too high.
AND this is why I've decided against the TPiS miniRAM. I've read that it is very difficult to tune with a batch injector fired ECM, unless one has sequential fuel injection and if you do, you could do either the HSR or the miniRAM no problem...

So I think I have to back off my 500HP goal with the 1227165 ECM. Maybe 450? And go with the FIRST intake.

As for my block, I called CPP and I should've gotten an email stating that the blocks were on backorder and that they should be in wed, and I should see it thur.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I ran hsr and 165 just fine. There may be a slight difference front to rear air distribution but its not going to kill motor.

Put a wideband bung in cyl 1 and 7 and see for yourself. Then tune for it

If you want better distribution, go single plane and high rise elbow but you may get into hood clearance issues

UltRoadWarrior9

I get what you're saying with the wideband compare on cyl #1 and cyl #7, i.e. front and rear of the engine on the driver's side... Not that advanced yet in order to implement.

Are you against the FIRST manifold for 500HP possibility?
I've just a few more questions, but will save for a later time. Thx for your help!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

No i like the first tpi. I think its got potential. Cam up and let it work. It will make a broad powercurve

UltRoadWarrior9

Ok. What if I went with a 210cc AFR vs. a 195cc AFR with the FIRST intake? all other engine variables the same.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

210 be a waste. 195 is more than enough head for that intake and a 383. If you were 395-406 go 210

Fred SS

iTrader: (3)

Have you considered the Street & Performance Multiport system. Its' similar to the HSR, but they took a Weiand tunnel ram intake manifold and made their own plenum. Looks really cool. Have not seen any performance numbers on it, but should be comparable to the HSR if not better.

SR71BLKBRD

iTrader: (1)

Im currently buidling a 383 HSR for about the same end game ur loking for.

THAT BEING SAID...

IF I COULD GO BACK IN TIME I WOULDNT HAVE SPENT A DIME ON MY CURRENT BUILD I WOULD HAVE GONE LS.

all your posts sound like u want to build the block from the ground up ads u mention buying bare blocks. for the same price or cheaper you can go LS. in fact. for the amount of money ive put into this build (over9k) for a 450hp 383 with hsr....I could have gotten a junlkyard 5.3 boosted it put in a 6 speed and got a moser rear. or just bought a crate 427 and been right there.

UltRoadWarrior9

Not heard of them before. I googled them, and their site is not very informative. Do you have any links? or prices?
Ah, "For the same price" you say. I can't look at it that way, as I can't afford to pay for eveything at once. I've done the ebay research for used LS engine/tranny combos @~$5K. I've had to justify the way I spend for this engine build because I have other responsibilities to family, etc... I'm a simple peasant you see and can only afford up to $1K per purchase using credit, $3K max but I'd be crazy to enslave myself. Then I pay the balance off before the next major purchase. If the card is old and they start tacking interest on, I pay off the balance, loose the card and get a new one.. BTW nice nick. SR71 is still ahead of it's time even tho retired, sadly. My favorite stealth aircraft.

SR71BLKBRD

iTrader: (1)

Ohh dont get me wrong I also went piece by piece!!!! im just saying for the cost if you plan on building a periodically correct motor be preparedto spend more in the long run. i just saved until i had en9ough to buy the dif pieces I waited two and a half months just to purchase my afr heads. and could usually only spare 300 a check (payed bi weekly) Not too many bills fortunately for me. im also just a simple peasant with champagne taste and beer pockets lol. all in all ive spent way more than either saving for the full time and just buying a crate or just buying an ls piece by piece. either way i had to buy roughly the same parts often at a higher cost for less than what i would have gotten performance wise.

also not sure where exactly u are located but i found this on cl in NC (i assumed from your sig thats correct)
http://greenville.craigslist.org/pts/5242587371.html 1500 and has a turbo

UltRoadWarrior9

I'd like my build to last as long as possible, so I don't want to trust a mass manufactured engine built by a labor force, i.e. LS engine/trans combo or any other prebuilt engine pulled from a dead vehicle... Need to do it myself. Then only myself is to blame. Then I learn... Tighter feedback loop.

UltRoadWarrior9

Got the block in this morning, delivered to house @7:30. Old man drove from CPP in Ga, started his trip at 1am this morning, lol. God Bless him. $30 shipping... Block #10243880.
Now I've got to make room in the garage for engine building, which means the IROC has to go outside. Long story with that side project. Long story short: Gotta cut down some small trees to make a path, lay down some concrete and get a car cover. lol

UltRoadWarrior9

Need RMS adapter. Prob have to get from dealer, all other aftermarket adapters convert 1 piece RMS to 2 piece oil pan and/or crank. Freeze plugs came installed which is nice. IMO should've come with RMS adapter meant for oil pan 1 piece RMS and crank for 1 piece RMS. Cannot find this aftermarket... Sorta disappointed in that. Live and learn & let others know.... Gonna get it on the stand tomorrow and check the bottom end. I see a main bearing cap bolt worked its way loose and fell into the packaging.

UltRoadWarrior9

RETREAD:

These build #'s are what I'm after.

Difference in my engine will be using the FIRST intake, OEM '1986' 1227165 ECM w/batch fired injectors, higher compression custom built engine and a slightly different cam. Sorry for the bad pics!

RIP OEM305, you have served me well and have not died even though I tried to kill you with high RPMs. We will keep you as backup...

Comments welcome as always, plz

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

I have one off my busted L98. Includes all (4) bolts/studs/nuts. $35 paypal including USPS to NC. Let me know if interested.

UltRoadWarrior9

PM'd. Thx.

UltRoadWarrior9

So this block has a bore of 4.004", why is that? Any thoughts? Are they forcing one to overbore the cylinders? Maybe I should've bought a 350 4-bolt mains block, lol

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

Clearance, Clarence!

I haven't spec'd piston before, so didn't put any thought into where the clearance was build. But, I guess the pistons are 4.000" and with 0.004" clearance, the block is final honed to 4.004". That also means you use 4.000" in your displacement formula, instead of 3.996".

LiquidBlue

There is a certain amount of truth to this however the system you are refering requires a tremendous amount of feedback in the loop, fuel pressure timing oxygen airflow I doubt the systems have much of that feedback involved it's all just preprogrammed based onon averages of what is installed in the car

UltRoadWarrior9

I agree with you... I am in contact now with a a retired engine builder. He's 76 yrs old and I called him last night and we spoke for like 45 min's. I met him about 10 years ago through a fellow tech (another old school guy) I used to work with. I was looking for a gasket for a Rochester in my 86 Silverado. He probably won't remember me, since that's the only contact I've had with him. But when I went to see if he had the gasket I needed I got to see inside his shop. It was small, but had loads of machinery packed in there. Anyway, I kept trying not to take up too much of the old man's time on the phone, but he really wanted to share his knowledge which I expressed my gratitude to him for his time at the end of our conversation. We will meet this Wed afternoon and he's going to look over my block. He sounded disappointed in my 'stupidity' of spending $1K for a new 4 bolt mains 350. He said he woulda sold me one of of his 4bolt 350 seasoned blocks for $200. He has no respect for hencho en mexico. The metal is not of quality.
Anyway, all that aside, I did ask him about the bore being 4.004" and he said it doesn't sound right to him and that it would burn alot of oil. Who knows, maybe he's been retired too long and forgot?
I also told him I was doing fuel injection with the original computer and PROM emulator. He seemed very interested and could grasp what I was saying when I tried to explain emulation mode of the APU1, where I could run the car and change settings on the fly without burning a (EE)PROM. Wed should be a very interesting day!

UltRoadWarrior9

Was reading over Smokey Yunick's Power Secrets book regarding cylinder bores. He says stock cylinder bores from a factory block are not suitable for a racing engine. He mentions if the cylinder bore is not properly finished, the engine will lose 20-25 HP. He recommends an automatic power hone machine like a Sunnen Hone Master and says "no way that a hand hone-or anything else- can equal the results of an automatic power hone".
So I'll have this block bored to .030" over if my man has an automatic bore machine, which I think he does. Will find out. Also, I'll find out if he uses a head plate, or old cylinder head to simulate the stress of the head bolts/studs on the block while honing it. Will be using studs here. Will have to buy 2 sets of identical head gaskets, as 1 will be sacrificed for the hone. So many details

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

That book was published in 1984, when GM was just getting beyond 175hp crossfire engines, and the base model was the Iron Duke. Perhaps the factory has learned something in the past 31 years, especially in the Performance Parts division! Perhaps technology has even surpassed the Sunnen Hone Master.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Yes that book is great and I love all of what Smokey did for the SBC but it is dated tech now.

Your 4.004" bore sizing is correct for a "race engine" build. You need to buy pistons that do not have the clearance built into the piston.

.004" is the common clearance amount.. To dummy proof the rebuild steps they started building the clearances into the pistons and then you finish machine block to the std. amount.

Like with a normal .030 over 350 build. The pistons will measure 4.026" and your finish bore would mic at 4.030" You have your .004" clearance.

With your block, you bought something for a custom "race" engine build, so the bore was done with the clearance built into the bore.

Now you need to find your 4.000" pistons and not the common 3.996" pistons

With today's market, that may even bea custom order piston

I know Ross, Wisco, speed pro/sealed power, KB all build the clearance into the piston, and all of theirs are the common .004" clearance

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I wouldnt trust those "Seasoned" blocks that much. I cant prove it but I suspect that's mostly superstition. $200 for the block is not including machinework, that's where the other $800 went. Add in money for clearancing the block for the 3.75" stroke and that's a lot more labor time in the block. You come out about the same, but this way you have a 1 pc RMS roller block and can use OEM roller lifters and cams instead of being forced into expensive retrofit roller stuff by using a "seasoned" (Read: Old) block.

GM has been building engines at any and all power levels for decades without "Seasoning" them first, and they dont tend to have a whole lot reliability issues.

I also agree at that price point it makes more sense to consider LS, but at the power levels you're at, the costs are about the same.

I also think you have a bizarre mischaracterization of carburetors. Driving a properly tuned carbureted car will feel NO different at all to driving a properly tuned EFI car assuming everything is dialed in. But given the choice, for a street application EFI is a better choice, but power isnt one of them.

UltRoadWarrior9

Armed with this knowledge, at least I won't look like a total idiot when I exchange information with this 30yr old veteran 'retired' engine builder.

Some more pics: Had to get the block off of the ground and onto the engine stand... Been raining alot here and I started to see rust on the block when it was in the original packaging.

UltRoadWarrior9

Last pick was very sturdy shipping

UltRoadWarrior9

Close to choosing the right heads (not buying them), 1 of 3 choices.
Common features are AFR 195cc intake runner, 65cc chamber, .1" raised exhaust port, 1.6" exhaust valves.
Input welcome!

UltRoadWarrior9

Great link here: 5.7" rods vs. 6.0" rods: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...3-stroker.html