ASE doc

While on this subject, I see that you're using March billet pulleys. Be warned that the billet crank pulley is thicker than the factory stamped steel piece and will cause the balancer bolt to have less thread depth than it needs to have in order to take the 65ftlbs torque that it must have to retain the balancer and pulley without chance of coming loose. DO NOT make the mistake of going with a thinner washer trying to make it work. The thin washer will only fold under the torque, leaving the balancer loose. I've seen a few pricey crankshafts ruined this way. You must use the original factory thick washer. You will need to get a longer bolt that will provide at least 3/4" thread depth into the crank through the washer. The bolt needs to be grade 8.

EDIT: OOPS! I meant to say 65ftlbs

UltRoadWarrior9

Thanks doc! I did choose an ARP crank bolt, part #234-2401 and I used the provided washer. Had close to an inch of threading after banging on the balancer. It torqued OK, thank God. I know this is not professional, but I was sorta panicking.
And... I also was concerned when that balancer finally was touching that front main seal, what it would do to the rubber seal. But I did lube the balancer with oil before 'install' so hopefully there's no damage. I seriously would doubt that seal was damaged with a one time heatup like that...

UltRoadWarrior9

Today, I ordered a stage 3 Stewart water pump, CCW rotation from Summit, stainless pulley mounting bolts and black oxide pump mounting bolts. Black and silver theme... The bracket(s) bolts, in the previous pics, will be black in the end, I just used what I had for a quick mock-up.

Also, ordered the wiring harness from Larry's Electric for 1992 speed density... Almost time for the EBL P4 7730 ECM!

Standard steel PS pump pulley ordered from Rockauto yesterday, along with 1992 Camaro knock sensor and coolant sensor...

A.I.R. pump bypass bracket further delayed from Summit till 10/19.

ASE doc

Seal will probably be fine. The problem with driving on the balancer is the effect on the crankshaft trust bearing. The trust bearing is just thrust surfaces cast into the rear main bearing. It's not a very hardy thrust bearing to begin with. To set the trust bearing on assembly, you rap the crank at the front end and again at the rear end, with the main bearing caps at about 25ft lbs, with a 3lb dead blow hammer or I use a 3lb hammer and block of wood. One sharp blow at each end is all it takes. That seats the thrust surfaces of the bearing and sets crank thrust. From there, you torque the main caps and the crank line is set up. Once that's done, any blows to the front or rear of the crank can damage the thrust bearing. You're probably okay, just hope you learn from this never to do that again.

The installer is really inexpensive at your local parts store. In fact I think the one I have came from either NAPA or Western Auto(old timers will remember them)way back. I probably paid $20 for it back then.

UltRoadWarrior9

Yeah, I was pounding on this balancer (not really too much effort) and I didn't even think of those crank thrust bearings. I was thinking need to get this on before it cools down. Also, the area I was aiming for seemed to be a solid piece of aluminum... Will use proper removal/install tool next time. Too much trust in the included BS instructions, plus this is my first build.

UltRoadWarrior9

Got some more parts in: Went with Stewart Stage 3 water pump as it's advertised to deal well with high RPMs and $208 ain't breaking the bank for a quality pump. It came with the gaskets. I bought the ARP pulley bolts and mounting bolts.

The March water pump pulley center hole measures about .630". The Stewart water pump shaft measures about .750", so I'll widen that center hole.

Starting to realize more mods like this will be needed. Was not too happy with the OBX Racers header flange fitment to the AFR210's. More on that later...

UltRoadWarrior9

Also, I thought I would share what looks to be a very nice valve cover gasket set. Has rubber gaskets with steel reinforced center and also comes with reinforcement bars for the top of the valve covers. FelPro part #VS12869T

UltRoadWarrior9

Widened the center hole so now the water pump pulley slides over. Pulley will need further modification as you can see. The water pump had 8 predrilled holes. None of them matched the March pulley, or maybe the March pulley didn't match? Either way, I'm expecting this BS. Also this... Next pic

UltRoadWarrior9

Tight clearance between the Stage 3 Stewart WP and Comp Cams 3-piece billet aluminum timing cover. Very tight... This is not the problem however...

UltRoadWarrior9

This is... Need 1.25" water pump spacers in order to line up serp belt. On order...
ETA. Also ordered correct length ARP WP mounting bolts.

ASE doc

Sorry to see you having this trouble with your accessory set up. I've seen this before with aftermarket parts. They should all fit together as they are all supposed to fit with factory components. March seems to have the biggest problem.

Installing the spacers on the WP, be very careful of the sealing surfaces. I suggest carefully scuffing the surfaces on the aluminum pump and the spacer with course sandpaper to ensure the gaskets don't slip and split under torque. The aluminum pumps already have gasket retention issues, the spacers just compound this. The best thing I have found for this is Edelbrock Gaskasinch adhesive. The KW copper is also good. These products stick the gasket in place and help resist splitting. Permatex Aviation is 3rd behind the other two. Have to let the Permatex product set up overnight before install though.

The VC gaskets you have pictured are my favorite choice for cast or welded covers. They are a little stiff for tin covers, don't work as well on anything not flat. On cast or welded though they are excellent. Of course install them clean and dry.

Another thing to consider with the spacers is clearance to the radiator and fans. 1.25" is a big chunk of lost clearance. Guess you gotta ask yourself if the March pulleys are really worth it.

UltRoadWarrior9

Will use the copper spray. Thanks for that heads up! Especially since this is my first aluminum water pump mounted to an iron block. I've not experienced these problems with stock iron water pumps.
Also, will check clearance this weekend between the electric fan/radiator and water pump this weekend. This setup I currently run is not stock. It's a 4 core Al radiator and custom single fan deal.
Nice to hear I made a good choice on the VC gaskets at least, lol.

Regarding the WP pulley, I did drill out the holes 2 sizes larger and did some very slight grinding on the pulley afterwards. The mounting bolts and washers 99% cover up the widened holes.

Here's a pic of the WP pulley mounted backwards. This also is nowhere near where it needs to be for serp belt alignment.

UltRoadWarrior9

Summit surprised me. Got in the backordered A.I.R. pump delete pulley. Only thing left to the accessory system is the A/C compressor.

Also, I got in the 1985-1992 wiring harness from Larry's Electric. Very excited about this because now I can check wiring length of the harness to all my sensors, which I have, except O2. Looks high quality, all AC Delco connectors. More pics this weekend!

ASE doc

Custom is always a challenge. But when it turns out nicely, it's worth all the effort.

UltRoadWarrior9

Amen!

Sorry about the lack of pics that I had promised. I returned the Stage 3 Stewart water pump as the top hole was not threaded correctly. But this was not the only issue.

This weekend, before I sent the WP back, I mounted both accessory brackets. Now the heads are torqued down, I've confirmed the head bolt holes lined up perfect with the accessory bracket mounting holes. Got more bolts and mounted the Alt. and PS pump pulleys. Serp belt alignment looks great at this point...

The Stewart Stage 3 WP will have to be heavily modified in order to fit in between the brackets, but I'm going for it. Also will need 1.25" WP spacers as mentioned before. Remeasured now that accessory system is almost complete, minus A/C (yes A/C will be there lol). 1.25" spacers good to go, will use ARP studs for the WP mounting...

Pics to come tomorrow, my day off. Gonna be mock mounting the single plane EFI RHS intake, checking the Larry's Electric wiring harness.

ASE doc

I guess if I looked closer I could find it, but what intake manifold are you using? Also, how is the quality of the $85 ebay throttle body. I saw them and was tempted, buit not sure I trust anything that cheap to be good quality. I'm switching to the Edelbrock Pro Flow XT intake this coming year and plan to buy their TB at $400 because I know Eddy's quality is excellent.

As far as you WP goes, I don't see why you need 1.25" spacers for the pump if the rest of the accessories line up with the crank. Are you sure you're getting the correct pump for this application? Maybe a dumb question but you are using a late style long nose pump and not an early style short pump, aren't you? Like I said before, it also has to be a reverse rotation pump for the serpentine set up.

Remember on the serpentine belt system, the back of the belt runs on the water pump, so the pump runs reverse of the rest of the accessories.

UltRoadWarrior9

Using an RHS single plane: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...all-block.html

I like the 90mm TB I got. It has idle adjust and max butterfly opening adjust screws. The only issue I had was when mounting the IAC motor. Had to trim some metal off the lower part of the IAC mounting flange.

ETA: If I would've gone any larger, like 102mm TB, I would've had to grind some metal off of the 3848 elbow TB opening. Something I might consider in the future if the prices stay cheap!

UltRoadWarrior9

Will talk more about the Stewart Stage 3 water pump mods when I get the exchange back. But yes, I was careful enough to get the CCW version.
All SBC Stage 3 pumps are short style with a .75" pilot. These are 2 details that I previously overlooked. Also, the March WP pulley was machined for .625" pilot. I fixed this issue already. The next issue will be fitting the pump in between the 1992 Camaro accessory brackets!

ASE doc

The 90mm is big already at 1100cfm. That's plenty for 500hp. Intake volume to hp ratio is 2.2 cfm per hp. Most intakes do require porting to handle a 102mm TB. My concern for you would be the interior finish of the runners on that Chinese intake manifold. They don't tend to be very careful about their fit and finish. Poorly finished runners could hold you back from your power goal.

I still plan to use the Eddy TB. It's made in USA and a very nice piece. I don't mind spending more on top quality USA made parts for my project. I like knowing that they will still be with me years down the road, since I've owned this car for 17 years and plan on keeping it for life.

Plus, I like knowing that I can call California and talk to the person who built the part. I don't know about the Chinese TB, but the Eddy comes complete with TPS and IAC already installed. That makes up for some of the price difference.

ASE doc

It's strange that Stewart would make only short style pumps since the motors that those pumps were intended for are all pre '71. Are you really set on the Stewart pump? I run an Edelbrock Victor pump(25% higher flow than stock). I've had the same pump on the car for 15 years. Replaced a couple sets of water pump gaskets, but the pump is still in good shape. I'm pretty sure they make both clockwise and counterclockwise pumps for SBC.

UltRoadWarrior9

Yup! Except for the Corvette right? They used the short water pump for the longest time IIR.
From the reading I've done on TGO, most people here go with Stage 2 Stewart WP's as they are regarded as the best. Stewart Stage 2 does have options for long and short style.
I prefer to build for (close to) ultimate performance 1st, longevity 2nd. Push the performance limits within reasonable bounds, dollarwise...

Stewart cooling tips are worth reading as well.

UltRoadWarrior9

A few pics after setting up the new TPI wiring harness from Larry's Electric. This is meant to interface to the 'Speed Density' 7730 ECM vs. my current 165 ECM which is MAF based. You can read more about it on their website, although I guess I bought the last one. They're currently out of stock. http://www.larryselectricsite.com/st...hp?productid=0

TPS and IAC sensors will have to be spliced-in as they are 1998 units from 4th Gen Camaro on that LSx TB. All other sensors are from a 1992 5.7l Camaro. There may be an issue with the amount of 'steps' on the 1998 IAC because I chose to use the 1992 8 bit CPU 7730. The 1998 ECU is 32 bit? So there may be an issue, but I doubt it with just these 2 sensors. The pinouts are identical for the 1998 vs 1992 IAC and TPS. Even the colors on the 1998 ACDELCO TPS connector from Rockauto match this harness' connector colors.

ETA: And the MAP sensor will have to be spliced (3 white wires). Same type connector on the harness, but it doesn't reach to where the MAP sensor is on this manifold.

UltRoadWarrior9

Other side of the engine. Pretty much nothing to see, except the knock sensor wired up

UltRoadWarrior9

Finally, on the left side are the TCC solenoid and VSS sensor connectors for TH700R4 applications. On the right side are the 3 main ECU connectors, ALDL connector, a fuse module, fuel pump relay and wiring.

UltRoadWarrior9

Today, got a few more parts in:
Black AFR tall valve covers
Summit Chrome tall valve cover wing nuts
ARP Intake bolt kit
ARP studs and locking nuts for water pump
1.25" water pump spacers
AN-10 plugs

Tomorrow, I get a new Stewart Stage 3 water pump from Summit and can then assess if I can modify the AN-10 plugs in order to be recessed into the water pump. Will require grinding the flanges from the plugs. No o-rings needed. Will have pics and further explanation in a couple days.

I only have a few things left for this build, at least enough to get it running. I say that because I anticipate replacing the fuel pump. But just a few items left:

1992 Camaro A/C compressor
Serpentine belt
AFR Stud girdles
Manley .120" thickwall pushrods, 7.2"-7.5" length TBD
EBL Flash P4 ECU
Fuel pump regulator and 0-100psi gauge
Various AN-8 fuel fittings

UltRoadWarrior9

AFR valve covers, very nice! What else goes on top of AFR heads?!
Summit 5" tall wingnuts pictured. 4" will be better for my application. Only $7.50 for a set of 4.
In the background you see my initial try at measuring cam half lift for proper VTG. Ignore that:

UltRoadWarrior9

This is where I wound up starting with my measuring device that I had on hand. Magnetically attached to the china wall, set for zero lift. Dial zeroed in with cam on base circle, measuring on top of the 7.2" OEM pushrod. Pushrod length doesn't matter at this point..Also, this is the intake valve, have my modified LS7 roller lifter in there for solid roller action (next pic)

UltRoadWarrior9

5/16" steel brake line in there, instead of original spring, for modified LS7 'solid' roller lifter. Here it is apart.

UltRoadWarrior9

So with the cam at half lift, with this valvetrain setup, I measured close to 7.7" pushrod length in order for the rocker arm to be 90 degrees to the valve. The roller tip was just at the end of the tip of the valve stem. Ridiculous.

UltRoadWarrior9

I'm not risking anything with this build.

Been doing some research which all points to shaft mounted roller rockers as the way to go with this build so I can sleep at night lol. I've not slept very well this past week since I measured for 7.7" pushrods using the mid-lift measurement technique.

Shaft mounted rockers gonna add another $1K+ to the build.... $7K into the engine build already. $3K in brakes. AND $500 on the original car purchase (that's what's got my soul: that I got my 2nd 1986 3rd gen for 1/10 the cost of my first one).

Ain't giving up!

UltRoadWarrior9

After abit more research, I committed to T&D shaft rockers. Expect about 4 weeks to receive them. I was trying to decide between Jezel and T&D, but went with T&D because AFR recommends them.

So I have some new 7/16" studs, 2 piece guide plates that came with the AFR210 heads and a set of Scorpion Roller Rocker for sale, part #SCP-1003. All never used...

UltRoadWarrior9

Just got the shaft mounted rockers today, 1 week early. Looking forward to installing this T&D Machine Products hardware tomorrow and checking for correct pushrod length....

Gonna try for 3/8" .120" thick Manley pushrods. Should be no prob since I lost the guide plates. Only issue maybe some scrub between pushrods and cylinder head. May need to clearance AFR's head for 3/8" pushrods.

UltRoadWarrior9

I wound up with measurements that call for a 7.1" pushrod. After turning the engine over by hand a few times, the rocker arm left a witness mark just under .050" wide right in the middle of the top of the valve stem.

With Summit's excellent return policy, I intend on trying to fit the 3/8" pushrods into this build and if they're too close, I'll exchange for a set of typical 5/16".

BTW, for the measurements, I used a Comp Cams 6.8"-7.8" adjustable pushrod with the PAC-1934 springs installed. Also, the race Comp Cams hydraulic lifters were used for the measurements which I did notice these lifters were able to be compressed abit, maybe .050"-.060".

UltRoadWarrior9

Order sent... Went with Manley 3/8" .080" thickwall 7.100" pushrods.

UltRoadWarrior9

Got these Manley 3/8dia .080" thickwall pushrods in. Lasered etched, nice parts and well worth it at $164 for 16. Also, no interference issues with the AFR210's.

Installed .030" shims under the T&D shaft rocker stands because the exhaust pushrod was too tight with the pushrod adjusters at their 'zero' position. T&D specs actually call for 1 turn down from 'zero' on these adjusters for an initial pushrod measurement.

After installing the shims, had a 1/4 turn on exhaust side and just over 1 turn on the intake. This is within T&D spec's, which are 0-2 turns.

Real close to final assembly. Had previously ordered tall valve covers. Although I don't need them, I'll stick with them since I can use these cool tall chrome wingnuts.

Hotrodp38

Stock intake is way too restrictive . Holley stealthram is your best bet.I would go with a set of re worked and ported vortec heads and a nice cam youll get your 500hp and it will be streetible

UltRoadWarrior9

The engine is complete. Last post on this thread.... Sorry it was so long.

cardo0

How can that be the last post on this thread? Did the engine ever run? Any dyno numbers? What happened?

UltRoadWarrior9

That's a good 1st question. Guess I got discouraged by a previous post by someone who didn't follow the thread. I started to think noone was following the build, so I didn't post. I know it's a very long thread...

I've not run the engine yet. I'm trying to pay down a credit card before interest starts accruing. I still need a distributor, some fuel lines and fittings and a spark box, and the 730 EBL package. After this coming August, I should be making more progress.

On a side note, I did also purchase a Soloshot 3 autotracking 4K camera. Still in development stages till March 2017? I would like to disassemble what I've built so far and reassemble a final build under that electric eye.

Thanks for the interest cardo0 and you lurkers!

87v6Bird

iTrader: (1)

Another lurker here who was waiting on updates.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

We'll make my setup is around 520hp. Simple Stroker build with not so expensive parts. Scar Stroker kit.

bk2life

is this thing running yet?

UltRoadWarrior9

I built this thing with "life of the engine" in mind. This is my first build, probably my last. I wanted to hit a 500HP target in a SBC GenI as a bucketlist and decided getting the best parts in order for it to last at least 100K miles, no DD but some racing on weekends. It's a far off target I know. I'm not following anyone else's plan and it ain't cheap that's for sure. Also, only so much internet research and heresay one can stand before diving in and spending the $$$.
Although valvetrain parts will be abused, I've spent the money on T&D shaft mounted rockers for the AFR210's for proper valvetrain geometry. Also the OBX Racer header mounting seems to be a problem on these F'in AFR heads.

Sorry to say no further 'real' updates/purchases till about Sep. Paying down this credit card. I ain't rich, but I think I'm smart.

That's all I got for now... Maybe some pics tomorrow

UltRoadWarrior9

Getting back into this MFR...

cardo0

Looks like 500hp just sitting there. Pretty bad azz. Look even meaner in the car though.

UltRoadWarrior9

Thanks man! I think the IROC agrees. In the last pic, it almost looks like the car is grinning, like 'yeah, I can't wait either', licking its chops.

Last week, a co-workers' son put in a modified LS engine with all the trimmings including an XFI 292 cam into a 1999 Camaro SS, like the one I chose except for LS. Man that engine sounds sweeet. He also chose to put in a UMI K-member. Now that was really nice! I have to do that as part of my engine swap. There is just so much more access underneath. Weight savings would be the 2nd benefit. But surprisingly to me at least, it seemed to idle fine and rev up with stock computer and injectors. The bad thing is, he doesn't know his compression. I'll be real lucky I think, if mine even stays running for a few seconds. But I plan to have a O2 monitor to tell me if she is running lean or rich. His didn't smell rich tho...

cardo0

Just a little FYI, the 2000 to 3000 RPM range is a safe condition to run the motor at while you sort things out. You can realize this if you consider the cylinder is only partially filled with the throttle blades less than half open. It's hard to make it knock there and if it could the pressures/effects would be much less harmful if at all. That's why when I put low octane fuel in my Z28 by mistake or other reason I just drive it keeping RPM under 3000 RPM.

Now if you happen to be over rich you should have plenty of time to correct that before you can do damage with the wet cylinders. More likely engine will stall and quit before mechanical damage occurs unless you do prolonged driving with it over rich. Engine will continue to run all the way to somewhere near 22:1 A/F - yes I have witnessed that.

Hope this can help.

BTW a tubular crossmember is so cool and while swapping engines is the time to do it - if you can make it happen.

UltRoadWarrior9

That's some really good knowledge that addresses the very same issues I am VERY concerned about on first start. I have 42lb injectors, with stock pump, and plan on EBL P4 using 7730 ECM... I'm getting there. This sh*t ain't easy. I realized half way in, once you start a hi performance parts engine build you have to keep on or risk trashing everything you put into it up to that point, which I'm not doing.

Cheers

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Hurry up and get that stock fuel pump out. You will never get the tune right with it still in there! It will not support your 42lb injectors.

UltRoadWarrior9

Ah shoot, I thought the stock fuel pump might be good to maybe 5000rpm before running out of steam.

I'll take your advice, but I hope this Walbro 255lph will work with the stock engine, without any modifications, and the new engine. Obviously with the new engine I'll have to reroute some fuel lines and add a aftermarket fuel pressure regulator. What kind of pressure should I be eyeing for those 42lb injectors in your opinion?