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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
I've been shopping around for a shortblock (or something) to replace the tired 350.
I'm liking the looks of the HT 383. https://www.chevrolet.com/performanc...l-block-ht-383
In particular the rotating assembly. From the Chevrolet Performance website, the 383 has:
Crankshaft (P/N 12489436): 4340 forged steel
Connecting Rods (P/N 12497624): Heavy-duty Forged steel
This is contrary to other specs I've come across that lists the crank as 1053 steel and the rods as powdered metal.
What gives? Anybody know?
The following is for the same P/N.
As an example from GM Performance:
And this from my local GM Performance dealer:
No mention of the connecting rod material or the crankshaft.
And there's this:
I suppose it could be said that PM rods are forged. But that's kinda sorta to me.
Any insights anyone?
Yep those are different part numbers from my 2017 GMPP catalog. If you look online GMPP catalog there is a chat pop-up where you could ask them.
Not sure why you want a truck motor when the new ZZ6 is over 400hp and 400ftlbs. And if staying with iron heads the SP350/357 makes some nice power for less money. But I read a lot of part numbers on all those motors I can't identify in my past GMPP catalogs.
I believe the ht383 is overpriced as they use a 3.800” crank that sells for 1200$. Common crank is 3.75 you can get for 600-800 depending on brand. But i see scat and eagle now offer a 3.800” crank but for 2 pc blocks.
I would prefer to piece one together or order from a builder who ships
gm to my knowledge doesnt make a forged steel rod in their crates. They have always been powdered metal. Those rods part number 12497624 show up as powdered metal. They are fairly strong tho. Plenty for 500 hp or more
Yes. Just the shortblock and the other parts could either sold off or stashed away. Selling of course would offset some of the purchase price. I'm kinda forced into a certain economy here so the least expensive route for the most HP my heads can support is what I'm pursuing. The next big thing will come later but in the meantime I want to get back to the track. I'd like to swap my heads, etc , pick a cam and go.
I've investigated the piece together program and ultimately everything ends up at a machine shop. Something I'm trying to avoid. As it is, even with the HT383 it'd probably be wise to upgrade at least upgrade the rod bolts. But at a max 6000 RPM engine speed, (I'll run out of head airflow beyond that) I may be able to get by with the stock stuff for drag racing. Road racing might be a different matter.
A builder who ships is my 2nd thought but the problem is at the border. And anything I've found seems to be U.S. based so there's the 33% premium on the dollar to pay too.
I'm going to take at closer at the GMPP catalogue in the meantime.
If you're going to buy a motor and tear it all the way down like that and part it out, that's gotta be more expensive than piecing one together.
About half of the price you pay when buying one from GM, is their assembly labor, and the warranty. You're going to pay for all that then throw it all in the trash. Doesn't make sense.
For example, getting a junk L31, buying a 3.75" crank, working the block, maybe even replacing the rods. Instinct tells me you can do that for AHELLUVALOT less than 6 large. Prolly less than 3.
Well, there's the rub. Is the HT383 reciprocating assembly as delivered capable of getting beat up at the dragstrip? 6000 RPM shifts? I'll say yes. So no machine shop intervention is required. I take my heads, valve train, etc , bolt on and go. I'm a little suspicious of the OEM roller lifters but I can deal with that. I hope the rod bolts don't let go.
The road course or open road racing? I'd much rather have the assurance of some improvement over the OEM hardware, as in rod bolts, if I were to entertain 6k for minutes on end.
And there's where the economy breaks down.
The HT383 isn't worth it if I have to take it apart. It's real value is in a drop in and go application.
For the record, one of the better local shops here has suggested that a decent build with all quality parts (SCAT at a minimum) and all machining (deck, bore, line hone and assembly) with my block will touch $6k. Could be less but at least 5k.
So, you can see how this is shaping up. More CID plus my shortblock as a rebuildable core (lots of good parts there) with the HT383. Plus the surplus from that to sell or stash. Or step sideways for the same money but with less potential and no spares.
Thanks for the contribution everyone. It's appreciated.
Question is, you're at point B, (now, whatever that is), and you want to get to point ! (300ish RWHP).
Skip ALL that stuff in the middle and concentrate on: pt B -> pt A.
Spending 6 large on something, and throwing about 4 large of it in the trash, is NOT the best way to get there.
Not sure about "spares"... GM doesn't give any "spare" ANYTHING when you buy their motors. Ya get whatcha get. No more.
[quote[no machine shop intervention[/quote]
How is that consistent with "ARP rod bolts" (reconditioning the rods) and all the rest of that?
Pull yer head outta … there … and become logical and rational. I'm sorry, I realize you might be a "human", and those things might be … almost outta reach … but … give it the ole college try. Rub yer eyez, clear out the starrzzz, wait until yer feet are firmly planted on the Earth. Then … I think you'll figure it RIGHT out. If you wanna buy a nice powerful reliable motor you can just drop in and drive, then the HT383 might be FOR YOU. OTOH if the HT383 doesn't include ALL of what you want (ARP rod bolts, forged pistons or crank, whatever kinda rods, … etc. etc. etc.) then it is NOT for you. This is EEEEEEEEZY. It is not rocket surgery or brain science or even quantum mechanics. It's just … a CAR. There's like … what... a BILLION of em or so, in existence? And ALL of em follow the same basic rulez of fizyz. This stuff is JUST NOT THAT HARD.
Don't spend $6k and throw $3k of it in the trash and then buy $3k of something else to get what you want. That's the sort of stuff that a HUMAN would do. Illogical, irrational, unreasonable, emotional. wRRRRRong.
There's nothing emotional or illogical to what I contemplating. But there are questions as to whether I can get to point B with the subject at hand. Nothing was said of throwing anything away. The intake and heads aren't needed and would probably get sold off. 6k now becomes 5k. .About the only thing that's trash worthy would be the cam
.That said, as has been mentioned, if I have to do rod bolts, then the plan is flawed economically. Otherwise point B is very reachable. Simple too. Order the 383, swap on my heads and intake, spec a cam and go. Now if someone could tell me that they've raced this engine in its stock shortblock form without modifications then I'll be all over it.
I'd like to do that as well. That said, that's what this engine was before I bought the shortblock from a friend. AFR 195 and the 288. Went bottom 12s in a street trim 67 Chevelle. Personally, I'd like a few more cubes.
I spoke with Charlie/86 Z28Owner (AMS Engines) and a rebuild with a crank etc is going to touch 6k too.
It may be that I take the approach of a .040" over rebuild but in all reality that just puts me back to where I was.
Heavy at 3700+. And traction limited. Best 60' was in the 1.7x range IIRC.Not much of a converter either. Much like my current ride. We all knew that a lighter car or at least one with a more drag racing orientated suspension would have put it into the 11s. Also much like my current ride.
Well then for $7000 they have an all forged 427 sbc. I kinda think that's what your looking for as you could sell the parts you have now and drive/race with a entire new motor.
THAT would be ideal. The reality is though is that I've got a lot on the go, not the least of which is house project I bought last summer. If you think cars take time and money, I know from first hand experiences that a house can be a money pit. I could build a helluva race car with what I'm spending on this place. Mind you, you don't build a lot of equity in a 3rd gen Camaro.
I guess in the meantime I'll have to amuse myself car-wise by hanging out here and discussing what if.
From all of this and something I knew all along, is that the cheapest route and getting back to the track would be a rebuild of the 350. It just pains me to do all of that and only be at square one again. I never race tested the newly ported heads, cam swap and converter as there were some fitment issues with the also new transmission so maybe there would be a bright side to the cheaper route. But a 383 shortblock would be a step function change, benefit even more from the converter upgrade and leave a pretty good 350 core for a future project.
Well, I have to agree about the house <=> money pit thing. BTDTGTTS in fact multiple TSs over the years.
My apologies if I came off as harsh, I didn't meant to; only, commonsensical.
You have enough experience that I think if you thought a plan through, you could pick up a JY L31 and an aftermarket crank and all that, and come up with the 383 you want, for AHELLUVALOT less than buying a new motor from GM and taking it all apart and "rebuilding" it. Just, don't necessarily buy the parts in the same order you'd assemble them (block -> crank -> rods -> pistons and like that); buy them more in the order that they come together to fit your goal. You've got the heads you want so think outward from there. Block might come first at this point, then pistons to fit your intended head configuration and cam (torque vs RPM curve), then crank & rods, for example.
I've run one of BluePrint's 383 engines, in the 430hp flavor, for years and have not had any problems with it what so ever. I recently pulled it to use in the '62 C10 step side I'm building. I used that as an excuse to buy one of BluePrint's all forged 454 small block stroker engines. I absolutely love it, with 563hp/567ftlbs of torque it's a beast on the street in a third gen.
You have enough experience that I think if you thought a plan through, you could pick up a JY L31 and an aftermarket crank and all that, and come up with the 383 you want, for AHELLUVALOT less than buying a new motor from GM and taking it all apart and "rebuilding" it. Just, don't necessarily buy the parts in the same order you'd assemble them (block -> crank -> rods -> pistons and like that); buy them more in the order that they come together to fit your goal. You've got the heads you want so think outward from there. Block might come first at this point, then pistons to fit your intended head configuration and cam (torque vs RPM curve), then crank & rods, for example.
I'm going to follow that logic on paper and see how the numbers shape up. The difficult part is getting a total cost involved from the machine shop that you can work with. That variable bugs the **** out of me. I've priced quality reciprocating assemblies a few years back before this current 350 cam into my hands. I was at this same point then as I am now. Worn out shortblock. Decent heads. I'll see how things have changed.
Originally Posted by MSgt Luttrell
I've run one of BluePrint's 383 engines,.
Interesting you should pop up MSgt. I was thinking of posting another thread about the "BluePrint experience" figuring you might chime in. About the only thing about BP that I'm hung up on is the unknown origin of the some of the parts. At least it used to be that way.
Question: Do you race that 383? Race meaning pushing the engine package to it's limits. That's something I've explored with all that I've built ( or assembled really, builders have machine shops) and haven't experienced a component failure yet. Some top end stuff but I blame myself there.
BP's forged shortblocks come in at $3700 last I looked.
I'm going to follow that logic on paper and see how the numbers shape up. The difficult part is getting a total cost involved from the machine shop that you can work with. That variable bugs the **** out of me. I've priced quality reciprocating assemblies a few years back before this current 350 cam into my hands. I was at this same point then as I am now. Worn out shortblock. Decent heads. I'll see how things have changed.
Interesting you should pop up MSgt. I was thinking of posting another thread about the "BluePrint experience" figuring you might chime in. About the only thing about BP that I'm hung up on is the unknown origin of the some of the parts. At least it used to be that way.
Question: Do you race that 383? Race meaning pushing the engine package to it's limits. That's something I've explored with all that I've built ( or assembled really, builders have machine shops) and haven't experienced a component failure yet. Some top end stuff but I blame myself there.
BP's forged shortblocks come in at $3700 last I looked.
I have run it hard on the street, mainly aggravating the teenagers with it and hurting some feelings, but never had her on the track, I had the rev limiter set at 5,500 rpms and didn't shift until it just hit the limiter. It pulled very hard and never gave me any problems. I know a guy though that has the exact same BP 383 and he and his dad drag raced it at the track for three years straight and they just pulled the engine this winter to have it freshened up; it was running good and pulling hard all three seasons and ran consistent mid 11's in a 69 nova. It's in the machine shop now and he says he'll give me a report on the engine after they tear it down; it had some hard time on it as he and his dad both raced it in two separate classes, so the car was running two classes every weekend. His name is Ben VanFossan, from Ohio, he's a great kid and his Father has done a good job on him; look him up on FaceBook and follow his winter over haul. https://www.facebook.com/ben.vanfossan
The small block 454 is an absolute torque monster and a blast to drive in IROC.
Hey Skinny, a buddy of mine is running the exact same Blueprint small block 454 as I am, except he was crazy enough to put it in a T Bucket. Anyway he just got done adding a Procharger and a blow thru set up to the engine and it dynoed 1250hp; I present to you what is quite possibly my next upgrade.
Yeah, the entire drive train is pretty much built to perform, he is my test dummy as he drives everything he owns like he stole it; BluePrint should be paying him for R&D.
You may like this then. Suspension rebuilt front to back with Global West. Ready for new LS3 with cam upgrade for 540 HP this spring.
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Yes!! Is that yours? Very nice man; love it! Here is my 62, I did a frame off build on it, swapped out the front K member with a 74 so I can use power brakes and power steering. I just finished rewiring the whole truck and am trying to finish the front grille and the tailgate and bumpers at the moment. I'm using the 430hp 383 in it, with a 700r4 and a Ford 9" rear end; still have a good ways to go on it though.
Always liked that body style.
As for the 69, I can't say it's mine. Or any of the others in the background of that picture. A good friend growing up who obviously has way too much money to spend. That 67 Chevelle in the garage has an LSX 454 with Texas Speed heads and giant cam. Expecting 700+ HP NA and should easily be bottom tens.
For me, the Camaro is the only toy. Two Camaros actually but the second is another project waiting to happen. First I need a new engine for the first one. Still working out the buy or build approach.
Hey Skinny, my buddy Ben heard back from the machine shop on his BluePrint 383 that he pulled to have freshened up after three seasons of drag racing. The machinist told him that the bearings were starting to get in pretty rough shape and one cam lobe was about gone, but found nothing that a good rebuild couldn't over come. In fact for a street engine, it held up pretty well to well over 250 runs at the drag strip with no rev limiter.
My "HT383" bottem end in my old G20 van was actually a Mercruiser engine with 3 seasons on it. Luckily it was a closed cooling system model and was virtually like new inside. I got it from a friend that put a pair of 496s in his boat after blowing one of the 383s up after it was accidentally run without oil. GM definately uses PM rods in them with specially clearanced rod bolts. GM puts a 3.8" stroke in them with almost no clearance grinding. The crank is forged and the pistons are hypers. They even use the OE 350 windage tray by using washers for spacers on the studs. Mercruiser calls the 3.75" stroke the 377 or 6.2 and the 3.8" stroke the 6.3.
Hey Skinny, my buddy Ben heard back from the machine shop on his BluePrint 383 that he pulled to have freshened up after three seasons of drag racing. The machinist told him that the bearings were starting to get in pretty rough shape and one cam lobe was about gone, but found nothing that a good rebuild couldn't over come. In fact for a street engine, it held up pretty well to well over 250 runs at the drag strip with no rev limiter.
Thanks for that MSgt. I've experienced what a wiped cam lobe does to bearings. Your friend's issues may have followed the same course as mine.
Do you have a PN for your/his 383? I'm having a hard time sourcing detailed parts listings for the stuff from BluePrint. I'd like to know whose crank, rods, etc they incorporate into their builds. Maybe you have some insights?
Originally Posted by Fast355
My "HT383" bottem end in my old G20 van was actually a Mercruiser engine with 3 seasons on it. Luckily it was a closed cooling system model and was virtually like new inside. I got it from a friend that put a pair of 496s in his boat after blowing one of the 383s up after it was accidentally run without oil. GM definately uses PM rods in them with specially clearanced rod bolts. GM puts a 3.8" stroke in them with almost no clearance grinding. The crank is forged and the pistons are hypers. They even use the OE 350 windage tray by using washers for spacers on the studs. Mercruiser calls the 3.75" stroke the 377 or 6.2 and the 3.8" stroke the 6.3.
I've been thinking and re-thinking this HT 383. My concern is the connecting rod hardware. The PM rods by most accounts are durable enough. But the nuts and bolts...I haven't found a definitive answer.
Now that said, if GM or in particular MerCruiser chooses to run conventional hardware in a marine application, then there's certainly something to be said for their quality.
Now taking all of the above into consideration, I've been exploring the possibility of getting my own reciprocating assembly. Something bullet proof (like Howard's Maximum Effort offerings) but the problem I'm having is that my machine shop of choice (and one at which one of our board members works) hasn't come forward with a price list so I can plan the financial side of this rebuild.
So at this point, it's still in the planning stages. Which probably means no racing this season (yet again). And depending on how things pan out (I've got a lot on the go), it may be that I take my current lump, tear it down (which is something I'm loathe to do without a replacement ready to go) and see how beat up it really is. I suspect good bearings, wasted bores and some other broken bits and pieces.
Thanks for following gents.
Skinny, the part number for that 383 is BP38313CTC1, as far as the part sources for their engines, I'm not sure about all of them, but the valve train on my 383 is Comp Cams. Here is the email address to the tech guy I worked with on the small block 454 I got through them, he was very helpful and can answer your questions; is name is Johnny McDevit johnny@blueprintengines.com
Based on the following culled from BluePrint's website I'm getting a pretty good idea what the make-up of this engine is. For all intents and purposes, it would probably suit my needs. That said, I may at some time down the road want to really push the engine package and with that may need more than this would offer. I still have a dream of being flat out on a Nevada highway and at 6000 RPM for whatever time it takes. Cast Steel Crank (SCAT 9000 series perhaps) Hypereutectic Pistons
4-Bolt Main
4.000" Bored .040" Over
1-Piece Rear Main Seal
New BluePrint Cast steel crankshaft
OEM type 5.700" connecting rods w/ 150,000 psi bolts(the upgraded rod bolts are a plus here but a 6" rod would bring the rod/stroke ratio back into that of a 3.48 stroke/5.7 rod range) Hypereutectic pistons
External Front/ External Rear (I would prefer internally balanced to take the stress off of the crank snout) The harmonic balancer that we recommend for our BP38313CTC1 is a 400 ci weighted, 8" diameter. Part number BPP400 (that's the external stresser I'm talking about) The flexplate / flywheel that we recommend for our BP38313CTC1 is a late 350 Weighted (1 pc Rear Main Seal, Externally balanced) But, for the price and if my aspirations were't so high (but likely to be unfulfilled given recent history) this would be a go to package. Something I'm taking into consideration. Thanks MSgt. I may make that phone call...
Anytime Skinny, like I said before, it's a pretty decent street build and I've had good luck with their engines; not sure I'd beat on it at the track every weekend, but it''ll do the job street light to street light on the weekends for sure. You can step up to their Pro series Engines and get the all forged and internally balanced rotating assembly, with the six inch rods, but they are of course more expensive.
Back in the day we'd call that a stop light Grand Prix.
One of the great things about drag racing, components get stretched but not stretched for long. The average shmoe like me can get away with a lot. When I got back into the hot rod game (after a 20 year hiatus) my 1st engine was late 70's SBC with factory rods, ARP bolts, cast crank and a flat tappet cam. It wasn't fast but it was a lot of fun. And remarkably durable. That is until my poor maintenance (I'll blame myself here) led to a flat tappet cam failure and eventual total engine demise. Live. Learn. Go faster.
01-19-2019, 11:11 AM
BTDTGTTS in fact multiple TSs over the years.
