Been having an intermittent heat soak issue for a couple years now. Classic case of idle car to full temp, shut it off, 5-10 minutes later it won't crank, but you'll get the normal dash lights/chime. Wait another 15 minutes, car starts up fine.

However the last two times it happened, the car never started again after cooling down. 12V portable jump starters didn't start it either. Having the extra 1.8V of an actual car jumping it at 13.8V fires it right up immediately though, no need to wait.

-Battery is about 1.5 years old, OE Delco battery from the dealer.
-Alternator was replaced in 1999 (only 40k miles ago though) and voltmeter on dash reads out the proper 13.8-14V.
-Starter also replaced in 1999, also 40k miles ago.
-I often disconnect and reconnect the battery as I drive the car only here and there. It is true that the negative cable has gotten more difficult to connect tightly in recent months. That said, I am almost certain this heat soak issue predates the battery being harder to connect, so...

I took the day off work and brought the car in to the dealer to have them finally look at this, sure it would be a bad starter, despite only 40k miles on it.

They didn't seem to have a lot of interest solving the problem IMO. Fortunately, they were able to replicate the problem while the car was in.

They told me the battery bolts were bad (true, not going to argue that) and that they replaced those and it started up and they were done with the car as far as they were concerned. I asked if they tested the starter and alternator like they originally said they would when I brought it in and they just said nope, bad battery bolts ($95 later...), take the car and "see if it's fixed."

I pushed a bit and tried to get a clear explanation as to why it would start cold every time and only failed when it was hot and he attempted to baffle me with bullsh!t. It's either connected or it's not, I would imagine. If the no start was due to a bad connection, I'd expect that to happen anytime, not ONLY when hot.

So I took the car and so far so good being unable to replicate starting failure, but it's also only 50 degrees out.

So, could bad battery bolts (aka loose connection but still a connection nonetheless) really allow a car to start perfectly fine when cold and then not at all only when hot? Trying to think here, as an engineer, that sure there's more resistance in the system when it's hot and thus it's harder to start when hot, but again the battery is either connected or it's not...and I can assure you, when I connect the battery, I make sure it's tight even though the negative cable has been more of a hassle to connect recently. it might not be amazeballs tight, but it sure isn't loose and sure isn't lacking metal to metal contact.

Thoughts? Bad battery bolts manifesting as heat soak? I'm not convinced, but I'm also open to being wrong.

I'd suspect the starter. A visual inspection of the bushings should reveal the problem; when they wear and the armature shaft is loose, the result is the problem you describe.

Could be. Side terminals suck like that. When they corrode it's often hard to see. Have to remove the bolt and really get in there to clean them. You probably aren't getting the whole story from the service adviser - they probably cleaned the connections and the cable ends also.

Get rid of the stupid lead acid battery that eats cables and bolts - get a proper Odyssey AGM battery that will last and can't leak all over your bolts and terminals.

And if it is the starter - get a high torque mini starter for a Vortec. They give a lot more exhaust clearance which helps with the heat soak problems of the big slow OE starter.

And why are you disconnecting the battery? If it's for anti-theft then install a kill switch that cuts the fuel pump ground.

GD

Yes a bad battery connection can cause intermittent issues depending on temperature

A bad, or weak starter is more likely a cause though (although we haven't actually looked at your car)

Even a new starter for one of these can be suspect and I second the motion for an updated starter, but the vortec truck starter won't work for you unless you're running the larger flexplate. A good option is one for a '96-'97 Camaro.

the guys at the dealership don't want to work on your car. think about it, the odds of them pleasing you when working on a 30+ year old system are slim. even if they fix what's broke today, something else may break tomorrow that the customer will likely blame them for or at least accuse them of missing. Also, most owners of something that old aren't willing to spend the money to replace ALL the stuff that, according to them, is way past its useful life. There's just too much chance of something turning out less than ideal for them. Kinda like you already questioning them about the battery bolts. No offense intended.

Oh yeah - 153 tooth..... yeah you'll need the Vette or LT1 Camaro mini-starter. Same idea for the small flex plate.

GD

Yeah, dealer was full of ****. Was fairly easily able to replicate the issue at home, it still has heat soak, I'm just $100 poorer for two $2 bolts.

Since the experience was pretty poor overall, I may as well name and shame and share my experience. The dealer was Lupient Chevrolet in Bloomington. I have had good service there before, but it only takes once to blow it, so I won't be back.

I had an 8:15 appointment this morning that I made maybe 5 days or so ago. Pull in at 8:05, and there is only one other car in there and 4-5 service guys just sitting at their desks. Since I'm there for a no-start heat soak, I don't really want them to stop the car until it's in a bay, and it only takes a minute to check in. I leave the car running and start to get out, and I kid you not I didn't so much as have one foot out the car door and I had two people yelling at me to shut it off, and one literally running over to me and in my face telling me to shut it down. I tell the guy it ain't gonna start and a 12V portable jump starter isn't going to start it either, and he looks puzzled and is like "durr so how do you start it then?" and I say I jump it with another actual car putting out 13.8V instead of 12V. He has no response. Clown, I don't think he realized there's a difference. Whatever, I shut it down - they can deal with it if it doesn't start.

Walk over to some other guy at a desk, and get a lecture from him about everyone "not wanting to die", give me a break. You got a 30 foot ceiling and a 4000 square foot drive in with four 20 foot tall doors connecting to a 15000 square foot shop and there are no other cars in here, spare me the unprofessional lecture as you too don't even know why I'm here. I get it, you don't want running cars in here, really, I do get it; but I don't need someone literally in my face about it and another clown lecturing me about how everyone's gonna die. Anyway, I explain the same detailed notes that are already in the appointment request I set up that they didn't read, clearly indicating that I want them to mainly look at the starter first. Guy hands me a $200 authorization to sign to do an electrical diagnostic on the alternator. I'm like ummmm...I'd prefer you at least start with the starter and we go from there because the alternator puts out 13.8V all day long and that too has been replaced and is likely not the culprit of heat soak. But whatever, I signed over on the $200 because I wanted the problem fixed today.

I go to the waiting room, five minutes later the guy comes out there bewildered and is like, "It won't start!" like this was unexpected when it's the reason I'm there? At this point it's 8:20 and I'm already not impressed and sort of annoyed with the unprofessionalism and general jackassery. I'm like, "Right...?" No **** Sherlock. "Well, when did you replace the battery last?" and I say a year ago (also in the appointment notes nobody reads, and also explained not 5 minutes earlier). Goes away, comes back a couple minutes later, "Yeah it's the battery bolts, they aren't holding a good connection, they are stripped." Again, I don't necessarily disagree with that, keeping in mind they are still in the battery and in there good enough for me to get the car to the dealer, but I ask how that would result in heat soak, the battery being connected is pretty binary, it's either connected or it isn't, so if that's the issue it would happen hot or cold, not just hot. Not to mention, when heat soak occurs, the car still has power; I still have dash lights and chime when trying to start, and all accessories work. He doesn't really have an answer and I'm just like yeah whatever, go ahead and start with the bolts. I'm thinking they are going to replace those, and then poke around a bit more. 10 minutes later he comes in and tells me the car's done. Wtf?

So I go out to his desk and I'm like, "So you didn't test the alternator or look at the starter at all?" and he's says no and I kinda push a bit because I don't know, in my past experience, generally when you have an issue like this, most dealers I've been to would replace the bolts, but then while the car is there, poke around a bit more to see if that's really it or if there are other factors. They just wanted me to leave this morning and didn't want to work on the car, that was clear. Probably an incompetent tech scared he doesn't have a computer telling him what's wrong with it and actually has to know how to work on a car to troubleshoot it. "I don't tell my guy what to do, just take the car and see if it's fixed. If it's not, bring it back." Yeah, I realize you don't tell the guy, but it's like, I'm in front of you and you can tell that I want you to investigate just a little more, and it's my car and my money so as far as I'm concerned I tell the tech what to do, if I want you to look at the starter and I'm paying, you should look at the starter. My appointment time is booked out for this, so use this time to look at it please. I didn't say that but it just pissed me off. I was out of there by 8:45 and by 3:00 I'm in the driveway with a car that wouldn't start, no different than when I was $100 richer. Wasted a whole day. I mean, they weren't doing me any favors squeezing me in or anything, I had an appointment set up days ago like anyone else and at least deserved the effort of a decent investigation into what's really a very common problem for GM vehicles. All I really wanted them to do, jackassery aside, was just do their job.

What did you expect? Really? The dealerships have less experience working on something 30 years old than you do. Short of a specialty shop, you're on your own unless you want to spend obscene quantities of cash. Yeah, the dealership screwed you, that's what they're best at. Lesson learned.

Not all connections are created equal. Weak & dirty connections can cause intermittent starting problems. The dealer probably improved the situation but things are not in tip top shape yet.

Voltage is probably a bit low at the starter motor solenoid. The solenoid is teetering on success and heating up the solenoid tips things in favor of the "no start" situation. My guess is you just need to restore/clean electrical connections throughout the starter circuits. Clean up wire terminals, clean up mating surfaces where those terminals attach to starter, battery, chassis, check that wires aren't corroded and in good condition, etc. This will help increase voltage to starter solenoid and the solenoid will pull-in stronger and improve odds of starting.

Keep in mind there are 2 circuits for the starter: The high current motor circuit that is powered through the cranking cables; And the solenoid control circuit that is powered from the start relay and key switch. The solenoid control circuit is the one that's not so fun to track down.

And please don't take an antique car to a new car dealer. All the people that were trained on that vehicle are retired or dead.

Agree. This isn't the type of car you take to the dealer. Honestly I don't blame them one bit. You say you want them to do their job - but their job isn't working on what you have. Yeah they go through the motions but what do you expect from someone with (likely) zero experience at their job? It's like.... have you ever been to the Taco Bell when some new kid is being trained on the register? Well it's just like that except everyone you talked to there is the new kid and there's no one to provide training. You might as well borrow a circus monkey to poke around under the hood with a coat hanger.

What you need is this:

https://www.meziere.com/Products/Sta...153-tooth.aspx

GD

It's not that hard for a tech at a dealer to check a starter, old car or not. I don't see how the car being 30 years old absolves the dealer from the basic technical competency to check a starter. They were just lazy and didn't want to work on the car. If that's the case, just tell me. Don't say you're going to do it, have me sign an authorization for $200 to look at it, and then not look at it and park it outside before you tell me you've washed your hands of it.

Don't want to do it? Tell me as soon as I pull in if you already know that and just own it.

I'll just find another dealer willing to do their job correctly, never been a problem before, right up through last November. *shrug*

I'm with you, they just didn't want to work on it. ANY dealer should be able to check a starter and alternator, that technology hasn't changed since inception really, they were just being lazy

Sorry, but if they accepted the appointment in the first place they have a commitment to follow it through to the best of their abilities. If they can't figure it out, they should apologize and make a recommendation. This is half-a**ing at it's finest.

yeah they should perhaps have been more upfront with the unwillingness to look at it

BUT if you plan to continue your dealership visits, you may want to look at an Audi or BMW, those dealerships are much happier to take more of your $

find an indy if you need someone else to hang parts on it.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the dealership wasn't in the wrong to take the job and half *** it. I'm just saying you're expecting an awful lot if you expect a new car dealer to be competent and willing to work on a 30 year old car. That'd be like hiring a plumber to be your proctologist.

Having a mechanic or shop rip you off working on a thirdgen is 100% normal. The more fancy the shop doing the work, the more you're going to pay to get ripped off. They don't need your patronage, they're not going to work hard to keep you coming back or to give you that "WOW!" factor, but they'll gladly take your money and tell you to hit the bricks. Taking a thirdgen in to have something done, and getting quality work at a fair price, would be the exception, not the rule. It's been that way for at least 20 years. I'm not saying this to make you feel bad, I'm saying it so you don't keep making the same mistake.

I don't disagree, but I feel like they get away with it because so many people don't call them on their BS and they can get away with it.

What did you expect them to do RE: "test the starter" - what tests short of removal, disassembly, and visual inspection would be useful? (at which point F*ck-it - you may as well throw in a new one due to labor costs, availability of rebuild parts, etc - it's a throw-away assembly to a dealer).

You can throw an amp-clamp on the starter power lead and another on the solenoid lead and do voltage drop testing.

But that's assuming the INTERMITTENT problem is present at that time. It's also assuming the guy knows what a good scope trace for a 30 year old starter is supposed to look like - unlikely. And it's not like there's twenty good ones on the lot to compare it to. So what do you expect them to "test"? You say they "should know how" - and maybe some do. But I can't tell you that I could test it and definitively tell you it's good or bad. Not unless the intermittent problem comes back and I can catch it with my test equipment showing sufficient voltage and amperage draw from the solenoid but no bendix action (for example).

How many amps is the solenoid supposed to draw from the ignition circuit? I don't even know where to look that up for a third gen. IF (and that's a huge IF) you could find the spec, prove the solenoid was drawing the appropriate amperage, has correct resistance, there is sufficient voltage from the ignition switch circuit, and the solenoid is not closing the contacts for the motor.... THEN AND ONLY THEN could you determine the starter/solenoid to be bad. Being heat related I doubt this is a brush issue in the motor but that's another possibility.

Do you really want to pay for these monkeys to try to do all this?

Obviously the first thing you check for a failure to crank is battery condition and connection. They did. And the intermittent problem went away.

So what now? What test would you suggest that would be useful once you can't repeat the intermittent problem? Also - after just solving what they determined to be *A problem* (just not THE problem). What would you conclude?

They should have done a test drive after fixing the terminals and then see if the heat soak condition comes back I suppose. And then you can whip out the amp clamp and the scope. Assuming the intermittent stays long enough to pull out the test equipment and stick it on a lift so you can actually access the starter connections. Also it takes two tech's in this case because you are looking at the actual ignition circuit amperage draw so you can't hook up a remote starter button, etc. So someone has to ride the lift up and twist the key for someone else to do the testing. It's not as simple as "test it" like you seem to think.

The reality is you should be going to a competent independent shop - NOT THE DEALER. Another dealer isn't the solution.

Dealerships suck and are for suckers. Even for newer cars. I do this every day and I own a shop. I watch in depth scope diagnostic videos for FUN. I can't tell you how many bad experiences I hear about from dealerships. Their lube techs destroy as many engines as Jiffy Lube. And I happen to know for a fact that most of my local dealers don't even have anyone on staff that can run a scope.

And in conclusion - a good independent that is FAMILIAR with older GM products would know that this is likely a heat soak on the starter solenoid issue. They would then suggest one of the many GOOD mini-starters like the Meziere I linked to above. Not some ACDelco chinese trash or reman unit that you would get from a dealer. Honestly GM probably doesn't sell a starter for a third gen anymore and if they do I wouldn't want the Chinese trash anyway.

GD

While I agree, based on your posts ITT, that the dealership service department in question sounds like it's populated by douche bags, you're dealing with the wrong type of shop. Dealer line technicians are used to doing warranty, maintenance, and service work on new-to-roughly-6-year-old cars; anything older is going to be out of their wheelhouse. It wouldn't surprise me to find that most service departments don't even have a scan tool that will read OBD1 these days.

Everyone I know, or have ever known, who owns an old performance car does all the work on it themselves; it may be time for you to find a factory shop manual on ebay for your car, get a basic set of tools, and get under the hood. Your only other alternative is to search out an independent shop in your area with a good reputation for working on old/classic/performance cars.

The problem is easy to replicate, and it took several years of watching this degrade intermittently until it was reproduceable enough to bring it in and have it happen, and as I mentioned, they could replicate it. After replacing the battery bolts, all they had to do was idle the car back up to 220, shut it off, and wait 5 minutes, and they would've seen it fail again, just as I did in my driveway later that day, and they could've moved forward with the next steps of the diagnosis. I can reproduce this failure on demand. This is NOT an intermittent problem anymore, and it took a long time for it to finally behave in a predictable, non-intermittent manner for diagnosis. I thought I was pretty clear in stating this earlier, but I guess not. I was going to idle the car in their lot right back to 220 and go back in there and tell them it didn't start, but I had already lost trust in that service department and wasn't going to waste my time with them, so I took the car home, where I promptly recreated the issue as I expected I'd be able to.

Keep in mind they took the job initially, and handed me a $200 authorization to look at the alternator, and then didn't bother to do it. Not sure how you can lay blame anywhere but on the dealer themselves who took the job and then did not execute and follow through.

Anyway, I'm just going to get it taken care of elsewhere on eway or another. My days of laying on my back under a car have long passed.

wait. are you saying the engine won't even crank. Because that is quite different than 'wont start'

If it was the starter heat soaking, then sometimes while hot the starter would still turn, only slowly. And it might even stop.
Also a heat soaking starter is worst on the highway and at WOT. There isn't nearly as much heat at idle or cruising around.

anyways. If the problem is the engine doesn't turn over, its probably the ignition switch

And that's exactly why you do the voltage drop test on the solenoid control circuit with an assistant. That would show up as an unreasonably low voltage across the solenoid when you hold the key in the crank position. Can unhook the solenoid from the starter motor also to take the system voltage drop from the motor out of the equation.

GD

This is a common issue because too much is being demanded from the ign switch.
I've noticed this in many cars. Current for the solenoid comes directly off the ign switch.

Ridiculous. Immediately I always install a relay capable of handling the job.
Or as my friend does, connect the solenoid wire to the main starter power wire, then use a "ford" solenoid to throw power to both simultaneously.
This is useful for installations with the battery in the rear of the car, because it keeps the main starter power wire dead for normal driving and while sitting.
it means you won't come out to the car in a flaming fireball after the main wire was chaffed for a couple years and decided to arc while you were sleeping.
Or in the event of an accident when the frame is pinched.

Posting at this site should be for the purpose to learn how to fix it. You're getting advice but you don't want to do anything for yourself so this is all wasted breath.

I have a brand new column ignition switch, Standard Motor Products US105. Pay for shipping and you can have it. I'll warn you though that accessing and changing out that switch makes changing a starter look like fun by comparison. My offer stands if you want it.

If you're not able or willing to work on the car, nobody here can help you; bitching about poor service from some ****-poor dealership service department helps no one. You're only leaving yourself open to the same experience with the next shop to whom you take the car. It's your money---and aggravation.


Good luck with your repair goals for the future. I'm out.

Puma your posts are pretty detailed but I skimmed over a lot of the content because I recently had a similar maybe the same problem with battery bolts. I got a new battery at Sam's club and let the tech there install it. But it took the guy better part of an hour to install it. Result a few days later I was stuck - well it wouldn't start outside my garage with brand new batt. Had a batt tester and found battery voltage OK buy charge/capacity just so-so. Gave one of the cables a tug and man it was a loose goose. Tried to tighten myself and bolt just kept going roundy roundy. Closer inspection found the bolt was not long enough for the new EverReady batt. Had to use makeshift bolt and washers combo to get a tight terminal. But ya know I found all the part stores sell longer batt bolts for some reason. Almost $10 for 2 bolts but that was the fix. Sam's tire and battery tech should have mentioned it and kind'a dissapointed with them.

Hope this can help.