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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
Looking to possibly upgrade over the winter, looking into 180-195cc and would like to keep it under $1000. Currently have a 355 with a vortec equivalent head @ 67cc and looking for another possible 20-30hp. Anybody have any real world experience with either a decent iron or aluminum head
Set of used heads maybe. See good stuff come up in classifieds.
Dart SHP 180’s will run closer to 1100 ish depending on parts
blueprint makes muscle series heads 195cc for 900 pair. But i dont know much about them
Brodix ik180’s are 1000$ pair. I’d probably lean towards those or the dart shp
I was looking at those blueprints but the flow #'s dont look to be there but for $899 they're a good deal and from what I remember the dart 180's have just as good flow #'s but cost more. Is it worth massaging the heads that I do have or for the extra cost its worth just buying new?
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
Set of used heads maybe. See good stuff come up in classifieds.
Dart SHP 180’s will run closer to 1100 ish depending on parts
blueprint makes muscle series heads 195cc for 900 pair. But i dont know much about them
Brodix ik180’s are 1000$ pair. I’d probably lean towards those or the dart shp
Looking to possibly upgrade over the winter, looking into 180-195cc and would like to keep it under $1000. Currently have a 355 with a vortec equivalent head @ 67cc and looking for another possible 20-30hp. Anybody have any real world experience with either a decent iron or aluminum head
I assembled a set of 200cc Assault racing heads for about that dollar figure including a multi angle valve job and a surface mill.
Vortecs can make pretty good power. Good clean up and valve job with the right cam can do work
I would strongly consider profiler 195’s as cast if you wanna turn some decent rpm with a good cam in a 355. Check out Weingartner heads or Speier racing heads. I think they offer those cast heads with good hyd roller components for 1200. They flow great
My cousin is running a 383 in a C10 w/Blueprint aluminum heads and I was really impressed how that sled of a truck moved down the road. He said they were much better than the pro-comps he had on there before.
Looking into the profilers now, look promising especially trying to spin 6500
Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
Vortecs can make pretty good power. Good clean up and valve job with the right cam can do work
I would strongly consider profiler 195’s as cast if you wanna turn some decent rpm with a good cam in a 355. Check out Weingartner heads or Speier racing heads. I think they offer those cast heads with good hyd roller components for 1200. They flow great
Can't stay on topic or have anything of actual substance to contribute go figure, maybe I'll get one of those tornadoes for my intake
I made a valid alternative suggestion as everyone else had already laid out for you the obvious head choices a simple google would have shown. I'll take your petty remarks as a compliment to my achievements! As they are obviously directed towards me or my channel
It's funny you mention a tornado, the man who designed the Carbon TR ls intake https://www.performancedesign.com/intake explained that when designing an efi intake you want the incoming charge to slow down so it doesn't shoot to the back and pile up at the rear of the plenum, this way you get even runner filling. I've always thought tornado spacers were a waste but if you think about it as he stated they are a poor attempt to slow down the charge post TB on intakes not designed for performance. Most don't understand an open carb spacer is also attempting to do the same, slow the air down so it doesn't slam the fuel into the plenum floor. Of course many just use a a larger carb or TB to do the same and the low end suffers. Back to efi intakes, this is why you see a large bulged front on well designed intakes, the charge can enter and slow down. So as much as I hate to admit to it, it is possible in the right app a tornado could show some improvement maybe LOL
I made a valid alternative suggestion as everyone else had already laid out for you the obvious head choices a simple google would have shown. I'll take your petty remarks as a compliment to my achievements! As they are obviously directed towards me or my channel
It's funny you mention a tornado, the man who designed the Carbon TR ls intake https://www.performancedesign.com/intake explained that when designing an efi intake you want the incoming charge to slow down so it doesn't shoot to the back and pile up at the rear of the plenum, this way you get even runner filling. I've always thought tornado spacers were a waste but if you think about it as he stated they are a poor attempt to slow down the charge post TB on intakes not designed for performance. Most don't understand an open carb spacer is also attempting to do the same, slow the air down so it doesn't slam the fuel into the plenum floor. Of course many just use a a larger carb or TB to do the same and the low end suffers. Back to efi intakes, this is why you see a large bulged front on well designed intakes, the charge can enter and slow down. So as much as I hate to admit to it, it is possible in the right app a tornado could show some improvement maybe LOL
OP is asking about head choices, not just horsepower.
OP is asking about head choices, not just horsepower.
As I stated in the post you quoted it was already covered! I only wanted to suggest a possible alternative that might also be cheaper, Sorry I tried to help LOL He could have simply ignored my reply or said nope only doing heads.
Looking to possibly upgrade over the winter, looking into 180-195cc and would like to keep it under $1000. Currently have a 355 with a vortec equivalent head @ 67cc and looking for another possible 20-30hp. Anybody have any real world experience with either a decent iron or aluminum head
My advice would be to hold out for a set of used, name brand heads. The name brands are proven and reliable out of the box. The many other newcomers for heads are good if you do X, Y and/or Z to them. But before you do that you have to verify A and B. The other aspect I want to bring up is $1000 would get you a good ways into a 4.8 or 5.3 swap which would be 300 rear hp before any hp helpful modification.
People like yourself are why I rarely post or ask questions here about performance upgrades, my first post asked for real world experience on cylinder heads and choices. You obviously don't know or have either which is why you posted your nonsense. If you have nothing to offer on the topic at hand don't reply, better to be silent and let people think you're an idiot rather then post and remove all doubt
Originally Posted by BOOT77
I made a valid alternative suggestion as everyone else had already laid out for you the obvious head choices a simple google would have shown. I'll take your petty remarks as a compliment to my achievements! As they are obviously directed towards me or my channel
It's funny you mention a tornado, the man who designed the Carbon TR ls intake https://www.performancedesign.com/intake explained that when designing an efi intake you want the incoming charge to slow down so it doesn't shoot to the back and pile up at the rear of the plenum, this way you get even runner filling. I've always thought tornado spacers were a waste but if you think about it as he stated they are a poor attempt to slow down the charge post TB on intakes not designed for performance. Most don't understand an open carb spacer is also attempting to do the same, slow the air down so it doesn't slam the fuel into the plenum floor. Of course many just use a a larger carb or TB to do the same and the low end suffers. Back to efi intakes, this is why you see a large bulged front on well designed intakes, the charge can enter and slow down. So as much as I hate to admit to it, it is possible in the right app a tornado could show some improvement maybe LOL
I was pondering the same thing, there are a couple of LS 6 liter for sale around here for $550 wouldn't take much to get them running well. I still have all winter to look for heads and what was already mentioned looks like decent choices especially if I could pick them up used for half the price
Originally Posted by Tibo
My advice would be to hold out for a set of used, name brand heads. The name brands are proven and reliable out of the box. The many other newcomers for heads are good if you do X, Y and/or Z to them. But before you do that you have to verify A and B. The other aspect I want to bring up is $1000 would get you a good ways into a 4.8 or 5.3 swap which would be 300 rear hp before any hp helpful modification.
I have only personally played with afr 180 and 195’s and trickflow 195’s on a lt1, but know that the heads i have mentioned earlier are pushed by quality head porters like Speier and Weingartner. I have dealt with Speier for my turbo car. I trust his work. I have seen Weingartner post his own data so thats why I suggested some of those other heads. The thing with dealing with them is you get basically a custom head setup for your application rather than a mass produced shelf parts. Not to say the lower priced heads are bad out the box but they always could be better or atleast checked for quality on parts and valve jobs.
Those cheap overseas import castings, some of them are really good i just would get them bare and have good valves put in. Cost is abit more but not terrible. Those dart shp 180 with decent components out the box have made mid 400’s hp pretty easily on a 383 Weingartner did. Minor port cleanup made around 500 if i recall.
Profiler 195’s as cast have been used as the base for alot of Speiers and Weingartners offerings. They are good heads and as cast is pretty cheap all things considered. Definitely recommend them.
No idea what you are building tho so port size wise idk what would be best. Idk if you need larger ports then profiler i think also has the 210 cc. Dart shp 200 could work and brodix ik 200’s etc.
People like yourself are why I rarely post or ask questions here about performance upgrades
Oh the horror! C'mon man, Boot77's original post was just fine. We call it civil discussion. You could have easily asked him "how", to do what he suggested, told him thanks for idea, but you wanted to stick with heads only at this point, or simply ignored him.
Chevrolet Performance USED to offer a Bowtie Vortec head in (about) 180 and 220. Don't remember the exact specs. Prices were right at $1000. Been awhile though, likely prices are higher. They tested extremely well from I read in the magazines. But you know how those reviews are.
I have a vortec equivalent, it's standard sbc head. They are dart S/S castings with a 2.02/1.60 and 67cc, I could mill and port the head but I don't want to dump money into them as they sit. Was planning on aluminum head and swap over my comp rockers I have. Rpm range is around 2500-6500
People like yourself are why I rarely post or ask questions here about performance upgrades, my first post asked for real world experience on cylinder heads and choices. You obviously don't know or have either which is why you posted your nonsense. If you have nothing to offer on the topic at hand don't reply, better to be silent and let people think you're an idiot rather then post and remove all doubt
LOL people like you are why I rarely respond or offer my experience and opinion because I'd rather not argue! I've used/researched and others that I know used several of these cheaper heads and as I'll state again it had already been covered! By previous post! You once again are just trying to attack me for some reason. While complaining of going off subject when the result of YOUR OWN attacks has caused more of it! You are your own problem! People prob have decided to not post because you might insult them. If you had an open mind we could of had a discussion, another option would of been to suggest or start a new thread but I wouldn't offer you a free coupon now LOL I'm done and not gonna even open up this thread again to read your waste of time response because I couldn't explain it anymore than I've tried. Declare victory or w/e floats your boat.
Since you like sayings, I find this one fitting. Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!
You've used and researched so many heads that you never mentioned one go figure, chalk your wall of words up to hot air
Originally Posted by BOOT77
LOL people like you are why I rarely respond or offer my experience and opinion because I'd rather not argue! I've used/researched and others that I know used several of these cheaper heads and as I'll state again it had already been covered! By previous post! You once again are just trying to attack me for some reason. While complaining of going off subject when the result of YOUR OWN attacks has caused more of it! You are your own problem! People prob have decided to not post because you might insult them. If you had an open mind we could of had a discussion, another option would of been to suggest or start a new thread but I wouldn't offer you a free coupon now LOL I'm done and not gonna even open up this thread again to read your waste of time response because I couldn't explain it anymore than I've tried. Declare victory or w/e floats your boat.
Since you like sayings, I find this one fitting. Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!
Dart knocoffs, new with upgraded 1 pc stainless valves HR springs studs etc around 850+ship
Dont buy the assembled stuff the hardware is absolute garbage and they could all use some touchup work.
Have a set that is freshly ported/flowed almost ready to go. First pass they made 306/240cfm and dont stall til .900 strong lows/mids too.
$1500 firm plus ship.
There are one or two bigger name heads out there that are the same damn thing with a program run through them you just pay a lot more.
Last edited by cuisinartvette; Sep 15, 2019 at 03:04 PM.
Dart knocoffs, new with upgraded 1 pc stainless valves HR springs studs etc around 850+ship
Dont buy the assembled stuff the hardware is absolute garbage and they could all use some touchup work.
Have a set that is freshly ported/flowed almost ready to go. First pass they made 306/240cfm and dont stall til .900 strong lows/mids too.
$1500 firm plus ship.
There are one or two bigger name heads out there that are the same damn thing with a program run through them you just pay a lot more.
Assault Racing? They appear to be Dart Pro1 Platinum knockoffs is why I ask. We got 291/193 out of the set I have at 0.600". They had not stalled at .700 either. They did 295/199 at .700". Was just a mild street port done by Lloyd Elliot. I asked him specifically not to go huge on the exhaust port because I am running 1 5/8" primary Thorley Tri-Ys on them.
not Kmj brand, lots of those knockoffs sold under different names, from a local distributor. think theres more than 1 mfr some of the dart KO are a little different. Hard to keep track lol
296/227@ .600
Would have to look at the sheet and see where they stalled out of the box, after peak they still carry and gaiin a little til .900
Certainly have potential. Casting gets a little funky when you dig in kinda inconsistent but still fine for st/strip stuff.
Last edited by cuisinartvette; Sep 15, 2019 at 06:33 PM.
Assault Racing? They appear to be Dart Pro1 Platinum knockoffs is why I ask. We got .... Was just a mild street port done by Lloyd Elliot. I asked him specifically not to go huge on the exhaust port because I am running 1 5/8" primary Thorley Tri-Ys on them.
It sounds like some of you guys are purchasing a set of lesser known brand heads, paying for head porting services and then buying premium parts. Doesn't that just drive up the cost to what a set of name brand heads assembled out of the box would cost?
Bought them bare, purchased better parts, corrected mistakes and ported them myself
To pay someone..yes better off buying brand name. #s aside the expensive stuff is still better quality
Everybody on youtube will say they are the same cause they bought them...they arent horrible but dont think for 2 sec they are similar quality.
Almost feel bad for Dart they are getting creamed...I think. Maybe the ones buying 799 buck heads wouldnt get the Darts in the 1st place? They are a decent design.
How cost effective would it be for them to try and stop these foundries in China?
Last edited by cuisinartvette; Sep 15, 2019 at 10:39 PM.
not Kmj brand, lots of those knockoffs sold under different names, from a local distributor. think theres more than 1 mfr some of the dart KO are a little different. Hard to keep track lol
296/227@ .600
Would have to look at the sheet and see where they stalled out of the box, after peak they still carry and gaiin a little til .900
Certainly have potential. Casting gets a little funky when you dig in kinda inconsistent but still fine for st/strip stuff.
KMJ heads are Assault Racing heads. KMJ Assault Racing Heads.
Bought them bare, purchased better parts, corrected mistakes and ported them myself
To pay someone..yes better off buying brand name. #s aside the expensive stuff is still better quality
Everybody on youtube will say they are the same cause they bought them...they arent horrible but dont think for 2 sec they are similar quality.
Almost feel bad for Dart they are getting creamed...I think. Maybe the ones buying 799 buck heads wouldnt get the Darts in the 1st place? They are a decent design.
How cost effective would it be for them to try and stop these foundries in China?
Even paying someone to do the valve job and port mine, I was only into them $1200/pair for a head that flows better than many cnc heads on the market. To get a name brand Vortec head that flows similarly and has roller cam valve springs and 7/16 rocker studs you would be paying 1,817.00 + 75.00 spring upgrade + 42.00 rocker upgrade for AFR 912s.. Edelbrock offers the E-TEC 200 heads for $743.50 EA. For my setup I would have had to change the rocker studs to 7/16" and also change the valve springs. I would also have to have them ported to get them to flow what the ported KJM Assault heads flow on the intake side. AFR also does not appear to offer a Vortec intake pattern head with larger than 190cc intake ports.
proheader is another one which may be same as assault. I believe chad speier used proheader cores for his budget import casting heads. Lil john motorsports used proheader ls3 castings but puts good valves and springs in them.
Thats a good way to go, buy bare and then get yourself some valves. Buy valvesprings to match your cam, most assembled heads arent always right for your application anyway, so buying bare and customizing is better. Typically 400-500$ to machine and assemble/valvejob a head. So in the end it may not be alot of money
no different than NKB (nice name eh? LOL) BTW these knockoffs out there are not vortec heads.
This valve job waspretty nice actually....guides not thrilled about. Go past surface deep in the casting you better be careful
I found a void by accident the last (suits my charlie brown luck) pushrod pinch...should have been at least another .050 left before I stopped but wasnt
Epoxy woulda done ok but still pressed a bushing in the other side then used epoxy for the heck of it. There was simply a casting void....seen 1 teeny pinhold pushed on it and one large piece fell right out. LOL
That stuff happens, no big deal.
Last edited by cuisinartvette; Sep 16, 2019 at 11:24 AM.
no different than NKB (nice name eh? LOL) BTW these knockoffs out there are not vortec heads.
This valve job waspretty nice actually....guides not thrilled about. Go past surface deep in the casting you better be careful
I found a void by accident the last (suits my charlie brown luck) pushrod pinch...should have been at least another .050 left before I stopped but wasnt
Epoxy woulda done ok but still pressed a bushing in the other side then used epoxy for the heck of it. There was simply a casting void....seen 1 teeny pinhold pushed on it and one large piece fell right out. LOL
That stuff happens, no big deal.
I did the same to my Edelbrock Performer RPM heads. But it was a big deal in my case because I was forced to use offset rockers to get everything correct.
I did the same to my Edelbrock Performer RPM heads. But it was a big deal in my case because I was forced to use offset rockers to get everything correct.
YIKES!
Speaking of Performer RPM head. I just noticed Edelbrock has a small bore performer rpm head on the market. Has 1.91 and 1.5 valves with 60cc chambers and 170cc intake ports. Has me wondering how it would run on a smog era 350 in a mild performance application. It was actually designed for a 265, 283, 305, 307 application.
I did the same to my Edelbrock Performer RPM heads. But it was a big deal in my case because I was forced to use offset rockers to get everything correct.
JB Quick will last for yrs if youreally wanna get ocd get some Belzona...not cheap.
Speaking of Performer RPM head. I just noticed Edelbrock has a small bore performer rpm head on the market. Has 1.91 and 1.5 valves with 60cc chambers and 170cc intake ports. Has me wondering how it would run on a smog era 350 in a mild performance application. It was actually designed for a 265, 283, 305, 307 application.
Sounds not as good as the World Products 58cc 305 head. Is the Edelbrock aluminum?
My WPs actually have 2.02/1.6 valves in them.
My Edelbrock heads are # 6073. The installed valves were cheap and the valve springs were cut crooked. If you really are considering Edelbrock, I would buy them bare and install quality components. I had to change everything.
I'm sure you know, but AFR has a small bore head. But $$$.
Last edited by NoEmissions84TA; Sep 17, 2019 at 12:26 AM.
JB Quick will last for yrs if youreally wanna get ocd get some Belzona...not cheap.
JB Weld is what I used, but I had to apply it in the pushrod pinch area. Even before any grinding, the pushrods hit the walls in the pinch area. But that was not discovered until much later - too late. That's why I had to go to offset rockers.
WOW, that Belzona looks like some incredible stuff.
Last edited by NoEmissions84TA; Sep 17, 2019 at 12:19 AM.
Speaking of Performer RPM head. I just noticed Edelbrock has a small bore performer rpm head on the market. Has 1.91 and 1.5 valves with 60cc chambers and 170cc intake ports. Has me wondering how it would run on a smog era 350 in a mild performance application. It was actually designed for a 265, 283, 305, 307 application.
Probably no better than a 081 or 083 /113 L98 head unless the chamber is significantly better somehow.
Awesome, right now I'm stuck between the profilers @ 195cc for around $1400 with shipping and the Promaxx 190cc for around $1000. The profilers flow well but I'd like to stay around $1000, I'd only buy bare and have a speed shop assemble them if the cost was right I don't have the time or want to do that myself. Probably going to wait until black Friday to get something on sale and throw the heads on over the winter
C'mon man, Boot77's original post was just fine. We call it civil discussion. You could have easily asked him "how", to do what he suggested, told him thanks for idea, but you wanted to stick with heads only at this point, or simply ignored him. 
